So Ireland still neutral...........??

stuar

UK and Irish troops in Mali mission
Irish and British troops are joining forces for the first time to train military units in war-torn Mali.

Mr Shatter said the military co-operation, almost two years after the Queen's historic visit to Ireland, was a further sign of closer ties between the two nations.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/uk-irish-troops-mali-mission-152212305.html

Ahh so sweet, we're getting cozier with the nation that destroyed the world, and us!

Irish Neutrality is Fully Protected Under Lisbon - Minister O’Dea
Minister for Defence Mr. Willie O’Dea TD has today (Saturday September 5th) completely rejected claims by the Peace and Neutrality Alliance that the Lisbon Treaty threatens Irish neutrality.
http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/irish-neutrality-is-fully-protected-under-lisbon-minister-odea/



"Believe me or I'll shoot yee in the bolllox"..Willie O'Dee

But we're still neutral aren't we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality#Current_policy

In February 2006, the Minister for Defence Willie O'Dea announced that the Irish government would open talks on joining the European Union battle groups. O'Dea said that joining the battlegroups would not affect Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality, and that a UN mandate would be required for all battlegroup operations with Irish participation. Green Party foreign affairs spokesperson John Gormley condemned the decision, saying that the government was "discarding the remnants of Irish neutrality".[19]
However the opinion of Finnish Prime Minister Matti Vanhanen is that his country is no longer neutral due to EU membership and its Common Foreign and Security Policy. It is unknown to what extent other EU states such as Ireland agree with this analysis.




Training is helping one side in conflict with other, other would be right to assume trainer of opposition as an enemy, and can shoot him rightfully, meaning the now dead trainer was not a neutral party.

Cookie_Monster

Like most things the Irish attitude to neutrality isn't what you'd call black and white, we're are when it suits us but also we'll deploy all over the place and help other countries when it suits us too.

It's just an easy curtain to hide behind should any tough decisions re offence / defence come along in the future.

Tzar Chasm

military advisors are not peacekeepers. this seems on the face of it to be in conflict with the spirit of neutrality.

TheBegotten

AFAIK, its the state's position towards a country rather than where Irish soldiers happen to be. Since they're Irish Soldiers in a "peace-keeping" role rather than Irish soldiers representing the will of Eire, we are neutral in said conflict, although our troops may be serving with the UN and suchlike.

Torakx

Basically we are not neutral, but they can twist it in a way that it politically looks like we are just on the line.

Regarding the terrorist thing, I agree.
Our countrymen are training a foriegn army to kill other people in another country....
Simple as that.
Nothing neutral about helping one side at all,except politics which is all about how well you twist things to make it seem like its not lying.

JustinDee

Peacekeeping missions are neutral missions such as those still underway in Lebanon or Congo. They differ to police actions or any other kind of expeditionary missions.
Neutrality hasn't been touched at all. No conspiracy. Just Ireland doing its bit and doing it well, I might add.

Logical_Bear

should be in the politics forum tbh

Torakx

Well im happy to look at what peace keeping missions they are on then.
Im not going to just take the word "peacekeeping" as an indicator for just keeping the peace and simple as that.
Nothing is that simple in politics and war/violence ussualy.
And I presume they are teaching warfare/violence of some kind.
The idea may be that they are teaching people to use violence and warfare to keep the peace.
But then, that was the excuse used to invade the middle east many times too wasnt it?

So I would require more explanations as to what is going on exactly, before deciding for myself it really is peace keeping.
As in policing by request of the citizens of whatever place they are training.

megafan

We weren't neutral in Chad either!

humanji

Stuar, do you want me to move this to Politics, or is there a conspiracy angle you want to talk about here?

Kat1170

The DF have taken part in a number of Peace Enforcment missions already eg Chad, Somalia ...... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Tzar Chasm

yeah but, and i'm open to correction here, they were peace keeping in the traditional sense ie driving around making a presence felt between whatever factions were involved without declaring an aliegence on any side other than the civilian population.
This is different, ireland will essentially be picking a side in this situation.

interesting to note the article beside this one in the info champions ireland membership of nato.

maybe that's the conspiracy, to take the nation closer to joining nato

Torakx

I would imagine the CT here is the Iish are being told our soldiers are on a poeacekeeping mission when in reality they are not involved in peace keeping.
But I may be wrong, havent looked at the Mali thing even for a start yet.

But if its like an English takeover through terrorism(or rebellion) and prevention, I would consider that the CT.

gnfnrhead

We are not, and never have been, a neutral country.

Tzar Chasm

we have a policy of non aggression, this kind of thing is a/slippery slope to irish soldiers being sent off to die for foreign conquests

thiarfearr

Our neutrality policy is stupid, the government should be able to send our soldiers wherever they want, and not require permission from the the big 5 UN powers

Owryan

A big problem is that most news outlets still refer to all irish army missions as "peacekeeping" even tho many are now "peace enforcing" or training missions like the one in Somalia or the planned Mali one .

Tecnically Ireland isnt neutral but non aligned. In theory when we allowed the US to use shannon in 03, the same facilities were available for Iraq to use if they requested to do so.

Torakx

I blame the voters.
Ignorant enough to keep giving authority to idiots and criminals.

Owryan

Not sure where your going with that post , but the talent pool amongst our elected reps is pretty shallow .

My own personal belief is that the DF is better off staying away from UN run missions and getting more involved with missions like Chad or Kosovo

megafan

Owryan wrote: »

My own personal belief is that the DF is better off staying away from UN run missions and getting more involved with missions like Chad or Kosovo

We weren't neutral in Chad there to help the French bolster the goverment of one of their old colonys! :rolleyes:

megafan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chad#Colonialism_.281900.E2.80.9340.29

tayto lover

I wonder would Shatter be as quick sending them to Palestine to protect the poor natives from the Israeli jackboot.

Owryan

megafan wrote: »

We weren't neutral in Chad there to help the French bolster the goverment of one of their old colonys! :rolleyes:

You do realise there were 2 seperate intervention forces in Chad ? The one we were involved in was there to protect refugees nothing at all to do with the french force supporting the Chad government.

Anyway this seems more a topic for the military or politics forums.

Tzar Chasm

I think there is a conspiracy to slowly edge us towards nato membership and closer still to providing troops for whatever imperial landgrab the uk gets involved with next.

Torakx

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

I think there is a conspiracy to slowly edge us towards nato membership and closer still to providing troops for whatever imperial landgrab the uk gets involved with next.

That would almost be a logical step considerign what happened with the european constitution we were forced to vote twice on.
We are slowly slipping into the united states of europe more and more.
A european army made up of all states armies is a logical step.
Im not sure if that would include the UN, NATO or whoever.
But it is one of the next logical steps for a superstate in the making.

megafan

Owryan wrote: »

You do realise there were 2 seperate intervention forces in Chad ? The one we were involved in was there to protect refugees nothing at all to do with the french force supporting the Chad government.
.

Mmmmmmmmmm.....:rolleyes:

Aquarius34

thiarfearr wrote: »

Our neutrality policy is stupid, the government should be able to send our soldiers wherever they want, and not require permission from the the big 5 UN powers

Fighting wars is stupid and sending sodiers to fight wars is even more stupid.

If they should send soldiers to war, why don't you volunteer yourself instead jumping on an internet forum encouraging others to volunteer.

I won't expect much of a response from you with that.

thiarfearr

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

I think there is a conspiracy to slowly edge us towards nato membership and closer still to providing troops for whatever imperial landgrab the uk gets involved with next.

The only reason we're not a member of NATO is because of De Valeras couldn't get over his hangup with Britain. He proposed a seperate alliance with the US, which the US rejected

EthicRanger

Who has been here yet? Or willing to come to minimise pressure in any of you heads, that we are disable to stand for basic human right things personally!
https://www.facebook.com/events/789460864401673/?fref=ts

Cork boy 55

Ireland is not neutral, neutrality is NOT mentioned in the constitution

We are non-aligned nation as in we are not a formal part of any international military alliance.

Neutrality is chosen on a case by case basis in any given conflict.
Example 1
We where official neutral in WW2
Example 2
In the Mali civil war we are not neutral in the conflict we are on the side of the Malian government against the insurgency supporting the UN backed Intervention mission there by training their Army.
The Irish army has done this before(training) in other conflicts this is not a first.

Says I To Bridey

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Fighting wars is stupid and sending sodiers to fight wars is even more stupid.

If they should send soldiers to war, why don't you volunteer yourself instead jumping on an internet forum encouraging others to volunteer.

I won't expect much of a response from you with that.

What a nonsense post. For a start there is nothing there encouraging other people to volunteer in place of the op. It also seems to imply you can only talk about things your involved in, which is ridiculous.
War may or may not be stupid, but they are unfortunately a fact of life and always have been for our species, whether you want to accept it or not

kryogen

Ireland is not neutral, Ireland has never been neutral in reality

Putin

kryogen wrote: »

Ireland is not neutral, Ireland has never been neutral in reality

+1

Brown Bomber

Says I To Bridey wrote: »

War may or may not be stupid, but they are unfortunately a fact of life and always have been for our species, whether you want to accept it or not

War is not a "fact of life".

aaakev

EthicRanger wrote: »

Who has been here yet? Or willing to come to minimise pressure in any of you heads, that we are disable to stand for basic human right things personally!
https://www.facebook.com/events/789460864401673/?fref=ts

Feckin crusties.....

Says I To Bridey

Brown Bomber wrote: »

War is not a "fact of life".

When has war and conflict not been present in the history of humanity? Part of the reason we're a dominant species is our aggression allied to our smarts.

Brown Bomber

k

stuar wrote: »

UK and Irish troops in Mali mission
Irish and British troops are joining forces for the first time to train military units in war-torn Mali.

Mr Shatter said the military co-operation, almost two years after the Queen's historic visit to Ireland, was a further sign of closer ties between the two nations.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/uk-irish-troops-mali-mission-152212305.html

Ahh so sweet, we're getting cozier with the nation that destroyed the world, and us!

Irish Neutrality is Fully Protected Under Lisbon - Minister O’Dea
Minister for Defence Mr. Willie O’Dea TD has today (Saturday September 5th) completely rejected claims by the Peace and Neutrality Alliance that the Lisbon Treaty threatens Irish neutrality.
http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/irish-neutrality-is-fully-protected-under-lisbon-minister-odea/



"Believe me or I'll shoot yee in the bolllox"..Willie O'Dee

But we're still neutral aren't we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality#Current_policy

In February 2006, the Minister for Defence Willie O'Dea announced that the Irish government would open talks on joining the European Union battle groups. O'Dea said that joining the battlegroups would not affect Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality, and that a UN mandate would be required for all battlegroup operations with Irish participation. Green Party foreign affairs spokesperson John Gormley condemned the decision, saying that the government was "discarding the remnants of Irish neutrality".[19]
However the opinion of Finnish Prime Minister Matti Vanhanen is that his country is no longer neutral due to EU membership and its Common Foreign and Security Policy. It is unknown to what extent other EU states such as Ireland agree with this analysis.




Training is helping one side in conflict with other, other would be right to assume trainer of opposition as an enemy, and can shoot him rightfully, meaning the now dead trainer was not a neutral party.

While parroting all the imperialist propaganda Shatter supported the virtual destruction of Libya through bombing it into the stone age and training, arming and then leaving Libya in the hands of Al-Qaeda affiliates and their cutthroat and suicide bombing friends.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/04/19/00013.asp
On the plus side, the balkanisation of Libya would have suited his Zionist agenda.

Either he is thick or bent. The only reason these "trainers" were needed in Mali was blowback from Libya. The Tuaregs, along with other blacks in Libya were being ethnically cleansed and kept in animal cages in Zoos while being force-fed new Libyan flags at gunpoint while white Westerners were celebrating the "liberation" of Libya from Gadaffi and his army of viagra-fuelled terrorist-rapists hell bent on killing everyone, everywhere... or so CNN, Al Jazeera, BBC etc told us...so it must be true!...

If we are going to support every imperialist misadventure and then send "trainers" to attempt to deal with the blowback then we are going to need more trainers.

It would be much more effective and not risk Irish lives if he lobbied the US government to put pressure on the House of Saud to stop financing every Wahabbi jihad.

Brown Bomber

Says I To Bridey wrote: »

When has war and conflict not been present in the history of humanity? Part of the reason we're a dominant species is our aggression allied to our smarts.

When has rape not been present in the history of humanity. Just because something has happened in the past doesn't mean it needs to happen in the future.

We are supposed to learn from history.

"Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it"

(or something like that)

MangoMachine

Ireland have always had a biased neutrality towards the allies. Helping the allies subtlety.

Torakx

We helped the Germans too lol
This country is run by cowards, traitors and greedy rats.
The population are a bunch of drunken distracted sicophants. Hopefully the next few generations will wise up. But the way psychological warfare is going on the population through media and through heading up any rebelious groups, there doesn't seem to be much chance.

TheHappyChappy

Torakx wrote: »

We helped the Germans too lol
This country is run by cowards, traitors and greedy rats.
The population are a bunch of drunken distracted sicophants. Hopefully the next few generations will wise up. But the way psychological warfare is going on the population through media and through heading up any rebelious groups, there doesn't seem to be much chance.

+1

This country is run by cowards, traitors and greedy rats.

Says I To Bridey

Torakx wrote: »

We helped the Germans too lol
This country is run by cowards, traitors and greedy rats.
The population are a bunch of drunken distracted sicophants. Hopefully the next few generations will wise up. But the way psychological warfare is going on the population through media and through heading up any rebelious groups, there doesn't seem to be much chance.

How did we help the Germans?