Where do i stand in double life assurance payment?

Wickla in Blaa

Hi all, dunno if anyone can advise me her but heres the situation:-

We have a mortgage through Perm TSB and we remorgaged about 5 years ago, at the time of remorgage we were advised that we had to get life assurance through a company affliated with permtsb for the morgage to go through. i really didnt mind that much as long as we could remorgage and then we found out it was cheaper and so were quite happy with this.

We have an account with perm tsb and pay our wages into there to cover the outgoing morgage payments and bills. Our morgage has recently been around 800pm however we recently recieved a letter that says 800pm and breaks it down as 760 morgage and 40 insurance. I thought that i didnt sound right so checked my account and found i was paying 60pm for insurance to new ireland and 800 to perm tsb. It looks like we have been paying both irish life and new ireland insurance since we remorgaged. :eek: thats the guts of 3 and a 1/2 grand in extra insurance!!

Im sure that we were told during the remorgage that Perm TSB would cancel the other policy and so want to know were we stand. Have we been paying for 2 policies and tough **** to us. Should Perm tsb have cancelled the second policy or advised us to do it when we asked? if they didnt and new ireland dont care do perm tsb have any liability or if they did cancel the policy and the direct debit wasnt cancelled can we approach new ireland and ask for our cash back

any advice would be very greatfully recieved as i intend going into Perm TSB and trying to rectify this asap (god knows we could do with the cash)

thanks in advance for any help you guys can provide

Liam D Ferguson

New Ireland won't cancel a policy until they have written instructions from you (and written agreement from any bank that has an assignment over it) to do so. So we'll assume that they never got that. Unless you can prove that you gave them a written instruction to cancel five years ago and they didn't, New Ireland won't refund you because if you had died in the past 5 years they would have paid out a claim, so you were just paying them for cover.

Wickla in Blaa wrote: »

We have a mortgage through Perm TSB and we remorgaged about 5 years ago, at the time of remorgage we were advised that we had to get life assurance through a company affliated with permtsb for the morgage to go through.

If you can prove this, then you have the basis for a complaint. Under the Consumer Credit Act 1995, it's illegal for any bank to make it a condition of a mortgage that you must take out insurances or associated products with them or their chosen supplier. Were you dealing with Permanent TSB or a broker?

Wickla in Blaa wrote: »

Im sure that we were told during the remorgage that Perm TSB would cancel the other policy and so want to know were we stand.

Have you any proof of this?

From what you've posted, I think you might have a complaint against either Permanent TSB or the broker who arranged the PTSB mortgage, if they misled you on the two issues above. But it would certainly help if you have proof of the things you were told.

Wickla in Blaa

Thanks for the help Liam, its very much appreciated.

it was permenant tsb that we went through directly but i doubt i have anything that says anything other than 'we have signed up for a morgage and insurance cover' as proof (other than the memories of my wife and I both being there)

if i do its packed up in some boxes in the attic and ill go dig them down just in case but i was just testing what you guys thought first, so once again thanks for your quick help tonight

Wickla in Blaa

had a good look through everything and can find a mortgage quotation with scribbles on it from the meeting we had that day in Perm TSB that we have written our next steps and required info on (including reapplying for the trs1 form when we recieve a letter and the date the new mortgage will come out) but nothing is on that sheet about our life assurance (scribbled or otherwise) and the more i think about it the more i remember asking if we need to do anything about it and being told by the agent in Perm TSB (whos exact name i have on another document entitled 'life home cover') that they'll (new ireland) consider it a new mortgage and hence their assurance wont be needed. 'not to worry about it' 'that i wont end up paying 2 assurances' (thats the reason i remember it now, the joke about paying twice and the irony of it in retrospect)

I dont seem to have written proof as i previously stated, other than our recollection of the meeting, my wifes insistance of doing everything instantly and lack of notes on the sheets we got that day from either us or perm tsb advising we should do it.

If I am to complain, where would that get me? should i approach perm tsb first? or is there an indepedant body to deal with such complaints?

any help you guys can give me would be much appreciated

thanks

rahenyrover

Might be a silly question but are you sure the €40 insurance charge on the mortgage is for life cover? Only ask as I know they also bill home insurance and PPI with the mortgage if you have such a policy. Might be worth giving them a call to check what policy is billing.

Wickla in Blaa

Yeah ive really looked into it and its definately life cover through irish life, as 'recommened strongly' through the guy in permentant tsb (i pay houshold insurance annually myself and always refused PPI as we couldnt afford it).

Ive just discussed the meeting in Perm TSB with my wife and she said she couldnt remember it all intially but on further discussion i advised that the guy had said that because of the system they had the remortgage was to be treated like a new mortgage and in turn would require new assurance and that the old assurance would be cancelled like the old mortgage and sudedenly her eyes lit up and she recalled it all. (as we were very young when we first bought my father had gone gauranteur and this all needed to be removed from the first mortgage, my wife recall them having 2 seperate morgage referances rather than one ammended one)

So my next question is.... if your mortgage is cancelled, does it automatically cancell a life assurance attached to that mortgage as we were advised by Perm TSB?

3DataModem

Cancelling life assurance will never be automatic... it will always be confirmed clearly in writing.

You'll find it tough to get any refund, as both covers were valid and would have paid on death.

Glenn Coco

You should be able to get a refund. From my (brief) time working in insurance/banking, you will need to contact both companies with proof that you were doubly insured, statements, policy documents etc. I think both companies have to refund half of each years' premium for the period concerned, that was paid to them, eg if you paid €60 p/m to one and €40 p/m to the other you would get back €50 p/m. I would contact the company you wish to remain with first, and they will be able to provide you with an indemnity letter for the other company, ad vice versa.

Pablo Sanchez

Glenn Coco wrote: »

You should be able to get a refund. From my (brief) time working in insurance/banking, you will need to contact both companies with proof that you were doubly insured, statements, policy documents etc. I think both companies have to refund half of each years' premium for the period concerned, that was paid to them, eg if you paid €60 p/m to one and €40 p/m to the other you would get back €50 p/m. I would contact the company you wish to remain with first, and they will be able to provide you with an indemnity letter for the other company, ad vice versa.

Incorrect, i think your getting confused with the general insurance principle of contribution, this covers the like of home or car insurance. Life is a different kettle of fish. Your free to have as many life policies as you wish, and all remain valid.

OP you may have grounds for a complaint if (1) you can prove that they made it a condition of your mortgage that you had to take their life cover when drawing your new mortgage or (2) that they confirmed to you that they would cancel your existing cover. Your bank can never cancel your life insurance on your behalf.

Bren157

This could be tricky. The only party that can legally cancel a life policy if premiums are paid is the customer - You. Best practice would suggest PTSB should have brought the issue to your attention and if they did not you have reason to feel aggrieved. But you probably have to cause to claim as both policies would pay out on death and so both life companies will argue that they carried the liability for the cover. sorry...

Andab

I have had a similar experience - 6 years of paying double life assurance. Our broker completed all the forms including the life assurance proposal forms when re-mortgaging and ticked the 'this is not a replacement policy' box, thus resulting in a second policy being started without the original one being cancelled. We did sign, but we were totally trusting our advisor when she said sign here, here, here and here! Have we any comeback either with the broker or the life assurance company? I would even be satisfied to accept half the responsibility (we did sign after all).

Wickla in Blaa

Nope, its tough s**t I'm afraid. You can have 2 life policies. At least our partners didn't pass away suspiciously during the time or it would be seen as motive

Tescosolvakia

Who was your mortgage provider before you remortgaged? A letter of no further interest should have been sent by them to new Ireland when the old loan was discharged but the onus would be on the customer to cancel the policy.

Andab

Thanks for that - to be honest I'm fearing the worst alright, but as it adds up to almost 5K I think I have to at least make an attempt to redeem something - so I'll send off a letter to the broker and see what they come back with. We can always live in hope!

Tescosolvakia

Andab wrote: »

Thanks for that - to be honest I'm fearing the worst alright, but as it adds up to almost 5K I think I have to at least make an attempt to redeem something - so I'll send off a letter to the broker and see what they come back with. We can always live in hope!

Out of interest, when you spoke with NI did they say that the policy is assigned to your current loan?

Andab

Tescosolvakia wrote: »

Who was your mortgage provider before you remortgaged? A letter of no further interest should have been sent by them to new Ireland when the old loan was discharged but the onus would be on the customer to cancel the policy.

At this stage I don't remember who the previous mortgage was with only that it was a different provider. And to be honest if we had received a letter of no further interest I'm not sure I'd have known what it was! We just assumed the broker would take care of everything!

Tescosolvakia wrote: »

Out of interest, when you spoke with NI did they say that the policy is assigned to your current loan?

It wasn't NI - its Irish Life - but when I spoke to them I was told they couldn't tell which loan it was assigned to, which I found rather odd - surely that can't be the case!?!

Tescosolvakia

Ok, I may be wrong here but...

You're probably paying for a New Ireland policy with no loan assigned to it. It's unlikely to be assigned to your TSB mortgage cos you would have needed to sign a Deed of Assignment but I can't imagine you did.

Your old lender would have released their interest and you would have had the responsibility to cancel it. You should contact the customer complaints area to have it investigated but ultimately it was up to you to cancel it.

Best of luck however- keep us updated!