Studying Law vs law & another subject

hames

I'm returning to University in September and am torn between applying for pure law as compared to Law & Politics/ Law & French (TCD, UCD) / BCL Maîtrise (UCD)

I've heard it said that firms usually prefer a candidate with a pure law background, and that the extra workload required for mixed degrees is not justified by industry opinions of these mixed degrees.

What would be the opinions of those who have followed one of these paths?

Hunchback

I don't know much, but I do know this.

You can study a 3 or 4 year course (a Bachelor of Civil Law) which would be considered as you refer to it a pure law course AND choose as one of your optional modules a language, say for example French. You could also, in my college, do Italian, German and Spanish.

I just mention French because if you were interested in working in one of the EU institutions French varies from being pretty handy to absolutely essential (in the Court of Justice).

So, in a nutshell, you can do your language within the 'pure' law course. :pac:

Hunchback

Just re-read your post.

I am not familiar with the syllabi of the BCL courses in the colleges you mention. Worth checking out though!

Procrastastudy

hames wrote: »

I've heard it said that firms usually prefer a candidate with a pure law background, and that the extra workload required for mixed degrees is not justified by industry opinions of these mixed degrees

Firms as in solicitors? I don't think they really care what your primary degree is is as long as you've passed the FE1s and tick all the boxes for the person they're looking for. I would have thought a language would have been a distinct advantage.

hames

A lot of the UK universities will say that they introduced mixed law degrees for students who are interested in law, but may not want to work as lawyers.

The Irish institutions don't explicitly say so, but I just get that impression sometimes when speaking to solicitors, which runs along the lines of 'why would you bother with the extra effort' of a double degree when it may be of no value to a potential employer.

Or even a downright disadvantage, which was what was suggested to me about the BCL Maîtrise (joint Irish law -French law degree)

I'm sure there must be some gravity attached to what we study at undergraduate level - otherwise why study law at all and not just do the preliminary exam for the law society/ MA Basket weaving? Or is it really pretty irrelevant?:eek:

Procrastastudy

hames wrote: »

A lot of the UK universities will say that they introduced mixed law degrees for students who are interested in law, but may not want to work as lawyers.

The Irish institutions don't explicitly say so, but I just get that impression sometimes when speaking to solicitors, which runs along the lines of 'why would you bother with the extra effort' of a double degree when it may be of no value to a potential employer.

Or even a downright disadvantage, which was what was suggested to me about the BCL Maîtrise (joint Irish law -French law degree)

I'm sure there must be some gravity attached to what we study at undergraduate level - otherwise why study law at all and not just do the preliminary exam for the law society/ MA Basket weaving? Or is it really pretty irrelevant?:eek:

Have a search here - this question has been well covered.

Essentially though if you pass the FE1s what does it matter that you have a Law degree. Surely a degree in biochemistry would be more advantageous if you wanted to work in that area or a medical degree if you wanted to work in med neg?

NoQuarter

Business & Law. That is all.

Procrastastudy

NoQuarter wrote: »

Business & Law. That is all.

Yawnfest!

NoQuarter

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Yawnfest!

Top-5-fest.

Procrastastudy

NoQuarter wrote: »

Top-5-fest.

Also yawnfest (although a well paid one)

Okay a serious question though - LLB + A good MBA expensive but a route to untold riches (or atl east a paid training contract?)

Blackrockcomet

Law plus a language opens more doors than pure law IMO. There are more opportunities in the funds industry for one, from distribution to other fund centres such as Luxembourg, as well as being able to communicate with international clients. The top 5 are really looking internationally for work and while a language won't guarantee entry, depending on grades and work experience, I think it would be a nice advantage

dublin daz

Law with Economics (BCL)

hames

Blackrockcomet wrote: »

Law plus a language opens more doors than pure law IMO. There are more opportunities in the funds industry for one, from distribution to other fund centres such as Luxembourg, as well as being able to communicate with international clients. The top 5 are really looking internationally for work and while a language won't guarantee entry, depending on grades and work experience, I think it would be a nice advantage

This is the diametric opposite of advice I have received elsewhere! The previous advice was in relation to London law schools.

Perhaps the disadvantage only applies to law schools which allow a student to substitute law modules in favour of alternative (French, politics, economics) modules?

But AFAIK this happens in Irish law schools too

hence, confusion.

Procrastastudy

hames wrote: »

This is the diametric opposite of advice I have received elsewhere! The previous advice was in relation to London law schools.

So where are you looking to study / qualify?

If you're talking about England then an Irish law degree is going to put you at a disadvantage straight away.

If you're looking at Ireland do two things - i) use the search function. ii) Contact a few firms and ask.

KoukiKeith

Can't see how it could possibly disadvantage you. Surely the more rounded an individual is, the better.

A lot would also depend on what area of law you could see yourself working in. Someone with a Law & Economics background must have an advantage for Competition, for example. Same with Law & Business, Law & Politics, etc. They all lend themselves to certain areas. If you wish to stay in gen practice then maybe a straight law degree would be best?

If I had my time again, I'd combine with a language. Globalisation & all that lark.

Blackrockcomet

hames wrote: »

This is the diametric opposite of advice I have received elsewhere! The previous advice was in relation to London law schools.

Perhaps the disadvantage only applies to law schools which allow a student to substitute law modules in favour of alternative (French, politics, economics) modules?

But AFAIK this happens in Irish law schools too

hence, confusion.

Obviously like almost everything else about getting a job, it's a subjective thing, which depends on the interviewer. But for any trainee interview you have to be ready for 'Why do you want to be a Solicitor?' As long as you have a good answer to that, not doing a straight up law degree is irrelevant.

As said above, different degrees lend themselves to different areas. Business/Commercial modules are excellent for corporate obviously but aren't much use in a criminal firm. Computer Science modules won't help with medical negligence but would be great for IT law. Languages are of universal use. I can't think of any legal sector that languages won't help. I have a friend who speaks french and qualified doing conveyancing and criminal work and then moved into funds.

Manach

My understanding is French is very useful for EU work especially dealing with ECJ matters.

Procrastastudy

Manach wrote: »

My understanding is French is very useful for EU work especially dealing with ECJ matters.

French is an absolute requirement if you want to do any sort of serious human rights work with the likes of the UN.

KoukiKeith

Manach wrote: »

My understanding is French is very useful for EU work especially dealing with ECJ matters.

French is specifically required for all EU Courts. Whereas, other institutions require one main language (English, French, German) + knowledge of one other official EU language.

Marcusm

Character, personality and a likeability factor will be a greater tie breaker than any cited thus far.

NoQuarter

Marcusm wrote: »

Character, personality and a likeability factor will be a greater tie breaker than any cited thus far.

Thats simply not true. You dont even get to exhibit that unless you get an interview and you dont come by them easy at all.

Marcusm

NoQuarter wrote: »

Thats simply not true. You dont even get to exhibit that unless you get an interview and you dont come by them easy at all.

Only if you're following a cookie cutter approach; those charateristics will help you stand out with lecturers, during internships (incl applications for internships, discussion with admin assistants, secretaries and the like), at drinks receptions, university society functions and lots of other places where getting noticed and appreciated will assist you in getting to an interview or meeting.

Whether someone had a language module or similar is unlikely to be truly determinitive other than on a computer based assessment system.

Anyone who does an MBA as a precursor to seeking a Law Society training contract is crazy; just like those undertaking graduate medicine and expecting to practice in Ireland. The money is much better invested in other tools to further career aims.

Procrastastudy

Marcusm wrote: »

Only if you're following a cookie cutter approach; those charateristics will help you stand out with lecturers, during internships (incl applications for internships, discussion with admin assistants, secretaries and the like), at drinks receptions, university society functions and lots of other places where getting noticed and appreciated will assist you in getting to an interview or meeting.

Whether someone had a language module or similar is unlikely to be truly determinitive other than on a computer based assessment system.

Anyone who does an MBA as a precursor to seeking a Law Society training contract is crazy; just like those undertaking graduate medicine and expecting to practice in Ireland. The money is much better invested in other tools to further career aims.

The MBA was my question - just pulled out of thin air tbh but thanks for the clarification.

I don't know about real world application but certainly personality (even mine!) has helped me get onto projects at college that has lead on to (very recently!) an internship.

How far a long term intership gets you in the application process to a firm with a 2.1 degree (from the institution most of you are aware I go to) without a masters etc remains to be seen. Hopefully I'll be in a position to comment in a couple of years time if I'm convinced the solicitor route is one I want to take.

Certainly at least a bit of cheekiness to ask people for the odd favour here and there doesn't go amiss!

NoQuarter

Marcusm wrote: »

Only if you're following a cookie cutter approach; those charateristics will help you stand out with lecturers, during internships (incl applications for internships, discussion with admin assistants, secretaries and the like), at drinks receptions, university society functions and lots of other places where getting noticed and appreciated will assist you in getting to an interview or meeting.

You're basically saying if you are this stand-out, amazing, charismatic person you will get your chance. Well, of course. But I dont know how many people in law I have met like that so its simply unrealistic for most.

dublin daz

Marcusm wrote: »

just like those undertaking graduate medicine and expecting to practice in Ireland. The money is much better invested in other tools to further career aims.

Sorry to cut over the thread, can you clarify what you mean by this? Just curious - thanks!

McCrack

Marcusm wrote: »

Character, personality and a likeability factor will be a greater tie breaker than any cited thus far.

I tend to agree with this and it works through a persons career and not exclusive to law.

If your clients actually like you you are halfway there. It's also a great business generator.

Marcusm

Procrastastudy wrote: »

The MBA was my question - just pulled out of thin air tbh but thanks for the clarification.

Even investment banks are beginning to realise that an MBA is not always an attractive add on; it's truly a generalist degree which should be studied after a number of years of commercial experience and only in institutions which have the resources (mainly external through access to visiting lecturers who are businesspeople rather than academics) to provide it. It's a great qualifcation for someone wanting something higher than a middle management role in a diversified corporate.

NoQuarter wrote: »

You're basically saying if you are this stand-out, amazing, charismatic person you will get your chance. Well, of course. But I dont know how many people in law I have met like that so its simply unrealistic for most.

That's an extreme interpretation. I am saying that highly developed interpersonal skills together with an ability to socialise will often win out over otherwise marginal academic add ons. I'm not sure how many lawyers you have met or have to deal with on a regular basis. Even amongst solicitors, I can think of many whom I have dealt with who are at the very extreme level of charisma etc. At the bar, I think a more outgoing personality is a prerequisite for long term success rather than simply something which is beneficial.

dublin daz wrote: »

Sorry to cut over the thread, can you clarify what you mean by this? Just curious - thanks!

Historically, there have been 5 medical schools in Ireland (TCD, UCD, RCSI, NUIG and UCC) which have principally admitted undergraduates. UL was permitted/encouraged to open a post gradual medical school. One of the features is that existing Irish graduates have to pay high fees - EUR15k per year for at least 4 years. Together with living expenses, many will come out with EUR100-150k of debt (ignoring lost income for what are already highly qualified graduates).

Given that an intern now starts on EUR30k and newly minted consultants (a grade to which only a small minority can reach) EUR120k, it's not very sensible financially. Taken together with an impending shortage of intern places (possibly 110 shortage this year), I'm not sure how rational a career path it is nor how long they can continue offering the course. Irish doctors need to do an intern year before they can be admitted to the medical register (unlike certain other countries) and I understand that the intern year must be within 2 years of graduating (this may only be proposed not actual) if they are ever to register. Many will have hope of much higher earnings or of practicing only outside Ireland.

dublin daz

Marcusm wrote: »

Even investment banks are beginning to realise that an MBA is not always an attractive add on; it's truly a generalist degree which should be studied after a number of years of commercial experience and only in institutions which have the resources (mainly external through access to visiting lecturers who are businesspeople rather than academics) to provide it. It's a great qualifcation for someone wanting something higher than a middle management role in a diversified corporate.



That's an extreme interpretation. I am saying that highly developed interpersonal skills together with an ability to socialise will often win out over otherwise marginal academic add ons. I'm not sure how many lawyers you have met or have to deal with on a regular basis. Even amongst solicitors, I can think of many whom I have dealt with who are at the very extreme level of charisma etc. At the bar, I think a more outgoing personality is a prerequisite for long term success rather than simply something which is beneficial.



Historically, there have been 5 medical schools in Ireland (TCD, UCD, RCSI, NUIG and UCC) which have principally admitted undergraduates. UL was permitted/encouraged to open a post gradual medical school. One of the features is that existing Irish graduates have to pay high fees - EUR15k per year for at least 4 years. Together with living expenses, many will come out with EUR100-150k of debt (ignoring lost income for what are already highly qualified graduates).

Given that an intern now starts on EUR30k and newly minted consultants (a grade to which only a small minority can reach) EUR120k, it's not very sensible financially. Taken together with an impending shortage of intern places (possibly 110 shortage this year), I'm not sure how rational a career path it is nor how long they can continue offering the course. Irish doctors need to do an intern year before they can be admitted to the medical register (unlike certain other countries) and I understand that the intern year must be within 2 years of graduating (this may only be proposed not actual) if they are ever to register. Many will have hope of much higher earnings or of practicing only outside Ireland.

Thank you for that extremely detailed reply. Very much appreciated.