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Marriage Equality - Constitutional Convention

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    #2
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Done


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    #3
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Daith


    Just got time to read these. Quite interesting. I'm still unsure if civil partnership had the same rights as marriage would I care. Probably not.

    I'll submit something. Guess its better than writing here and on the Journal


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    #4
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Daith wrote: »
    Just got time to read these. Quite interesting. I'm still unsure if civil partnership had the same rights as marriage would I care. Probably not.

    I'll submit something. Guess its better than writing here and on the Journal

    There will be a debate in the politics forum here as well.

    It will be important for lgbt voices to be heard there

    They had 3 discussions on age and women and very few younger people and women participated in them. I think there was no women but it's hard to say for definite.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #5
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    My brief submission:

    I feel it would be wrong for the state to replace one apartheid with another by introducing "same-sex marriage", I feel it is incumbent upon those making recommendations from the convention to treat all citizens equal under the law and therefore recommend that marriage as it is currently constituted be determined to exist irrespective of gender of either party to a marriage. It should be a right afforded to all of-age couples wishing to have a married life together.

    It is not for Ireland to *follow* other examples where this apartheid has been created, but by having a convention of citizens, to lead the way on what is right and just. I am disillusioned by Ireland’s need to follow others lead on issues, we must lead based on our own national compass of justice.
    Any contention that marriage is between a man and woman must be rejected on the basis of religious influence, and if this is to be upheld by the convention, I feel it can only be done so on the basis that there can be no such legal act as marriage for anyone. As such marriage must be entirely removed from the constitution in this instance.

    I would be happy to see either course of action take place, so long as the legal partnership of a couple cannot be determined to be legislatively, semantically, judicially or constitutionally different on the basis of sexual orientation or gender.


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    #6
    gawker
    Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭gawker


    With the two decisions they've made in favour of a younger voting age and a revised "women in the home" amendment that is gender neutral, this Convention has my hopes up. Clearly not made up of cranks anyway. Fingers crossed for the April vote!


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    #7
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Submissions close on March 19th. Write something now and send it in.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #8
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Daith


    I sent one in a few days ago but not sure it's my best. I still feel it's weird to defend why I want to be seen as equal to anyone. Let's hope the Convention votes in the right way because once they do, the Government will have to finally listen.


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    #9
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Daith wrote: »
    I sent one in a few days ago but not sure it's my best. I still feel it's weird to defend why I want to be seen as equal to anyone. Let's hope the Convention votes in the right way because once they do, the Government will have to finally listen.

    Call me cynical, but the whole point of this convention so far has been for the government to sideline issues it doesn't want to know about. I hope it brings about change, but the convention will make recommendations, it's up to the cabinet whether or not the recommended amendments will be proposed.


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    #10
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    ninty9er wrote: »
    Call me cynical, but the whole point of this convention so far has been for the government to sideline issues it doesn't want to know about. I hope it brings about change, but the convention will make recommendations, it's up to the cabinet whether or not the recommended amendments will be proposed.

    Ok you're cynical

    I kind of agree with you and I kind of don't. Social change in Ireland takes a long time. Politicians take for ever to realise that the general populace wants or needs something. It is not ideal and it probably seems that politicians have fobbed people off with the convention but in other ways it gives us an important chance to advocate for change and to do so publicly. I think this is an important milestone on the road to marriage equality and if we really want it then we need to actively engage with the process

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #11
    paulmorro
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭paulmorro


    Quick question, assuming they recommend marriage equality is this something that could go forward for the proposed referendum in the autumn, or would that realistically be too soon to be written up?


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    #12
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    paulmorro wrote: »
    Quick question, assuming they recommend marriage equality is this something that could go forward for the proposed referendum in the autumn, or would that realistically be too soon to be written up?

    I don't know. My guess is that the Autumn referendum will only be on the seanad and that referenda arising out of the convention won't start til next year.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #13
    paulmorro
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭paulmorro


    mango salsa wrote: »

    I don't know. My guess is that the Autumn referendum will only be on the seanad and that referenda arising out of the convention won't start til next year.
    Wasnt sure since they were talking about the family court as well.

    As an aside, is this amount of referenda usual (like looks like coming close to double digits in five years) internationally? Is it a sign of something fundamentally wrong/obsolete with the constitution? Would a new completely revamped constitution be warranted or would the multitude of issues be too messy?

    Just spitballing really, this sort of stuff tends to go way over my head.


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    #14
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    paulmorro wrote: »
    Wasnt sure since they were talking about the family court as well.

    As an aside, is this amount of referenda usual (like looks like coming close to double digits in five years) internationally? Is it a sign of something fundamentally wrong/obsolete with the constitution? Would a new completely revamped constitution be warranted or would the multitude of issues be too messy?

    Just spitballing really, this sort of stuff tends to go way over my head.

    I think it's a bit ludicrous to be having all these referenda myself. As I understood it the original point of the Convention proposed in Labours manifesto was to totally rewrite the constitution but I think FG might have felt threatened by such an idea and came up with a list as a compromise.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #15
    paulmorro
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭paulmorro


    mango salsa wrote: »

    I think it's a bit ludicrous to be having all these referenda myself. As I understood it the original point of the Convention proposed in Labours manifesto was to totally rewrite the constitution but I think FG might have felt threatened by such an idea and came up with a list as a compromise.
    Ugh I just find that something as inane (to me) as judges salaries is mind numbing when it comes to debating season and it seems we'll have a lot more of those!


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    #16
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Daith


    ninty9er wrote: »

    Call me cynical, but the whole point of this convention so far has been for the government to sideline issues it doesn't want to know about. I hope it brings about change, but the convention will make recommendations, it's up to the cabinet whether or not the recommended amendments will be proposed.

    Oh yeah I agree. The whole thing is a huge stalling tactic. They have four months to "listen" to the recommendations.


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    #17
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Ionas submission is here if you want something to argue against

    https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?aid=9023f782-d687-e211-a5a0-005056a32ee4

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #18
    manic mailman
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭manic mailman


    Just submitted my entry there.

    That Iona article really boiled my blood. Almost didn't submit because I accidentally refreshed the page after I'd finished my initial entry.

    Emailed my TD who is sitting on the constitutional convention too, wouldn't be able to make it out for a personal visit though.

    To those who haven't submitted anything, it's only 1000 (or less) required. It doesn't need to be an essay, once you get across your point.


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    #19
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    manic mailman wrote: »
    Just submitted my entry there.

    That Iona article really boiled my blood. Almost didn't submit because I accidentally refreshed the page after I'd finished my initial entry.

    Emailed my TD who is sitting on the constitutional convention too, wouldn't be able to make it out for a personal visit though.

    To those who haven't submitted anything, it's only 1000 (or less) required. It doesn't need to be an essay, once you get across your point.

    It can be as simple or as complex as you want. As long or as short as you want.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #20
    gawker
    Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭gawker


    Submitted :) Very easy process, I encourage everyone to do this!

    https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?aid=70a5f744-b18c-e211-a5a0-005056a32ee4


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    #21
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.constitution.ie/SubmissionCaptcha.aspx

    Its really really really easy to make a submission.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #22
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Interesting discussion on Iona submission

    http://www.skepticink.com/humanisticas/2013/04/04/david-quinn-and-iona-institute-continue-to-lie-about-research/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #23
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    The discussion on marriage equality takes place next weekend on Saturday and Sunday

    The convention received about 1100 submissions. Approximately 75% are in favour.

    The agenda has not been fully set but I understand that the Saturday will have a panel discussion. The proposed panel representatives are: David Quinn (the Iona Institute), a representative from Preserve Marriage, Colm O’Gorman (Amnesty International), a representative from the Law Faculty, UCC and Carol Coulter, former Legal Editor of the Irish Times.

    A lot of the groups making submissions had requested to speak at the convention.

    6 groups were chosen to make presentations

    Proposing the provision
    The Irish Council of Civil Liberties
    Marriage Equality
    The Gay and Lesbian Equality Network

    Against the provision
    Evangelical Association Ireland
    The Catholic Bishops Conference
    The Knights of St. Columbanus

    The convention members have been sent a number of explanatory documents

    http://alturl.com/6gqte
    http://alturl.com/v5q3e
    http://alturl.com/dvdww
    http://alturl.com/vnw4n

    The convention will be live on the convention website

    https://www.constitution.ie/
    http://clients.dv4.com/ccven/

    You will also be able to follow the twitter discussion using #ccven

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #24
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Daith


    Interesting. Are all three groups against religious groups?


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    #25
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    Why are religious groups brought onto the panel? It's got nothing to do with them as it's a civil issue only.

    I can't speak for everyone, but I'd be interested in getting full rights, I'm not asking to get married in a church with a religious ceremony. I think it's fair enough that they're allowed to abide by their rules and not allow someone who conflicts with their beliefs the option to get married, but that's only in their clubhouse. Outside of which they should have zero say on a completely civil issue that has nothing to do with them.


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    #26
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    1ZRed wrote: »
    Why are religious groups brought onto the panel? It's got nothing to do with them as it's a civil issue only.

    Because they are lobbying to keep things as they are

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #27
    Vojera
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Vojera


    1ZRed wrote: »
    Why are religious groups brought onto the panel? It's got nothing to do with them as it's a civil issue only.

    I can't speak for everyone, but I'd be interested in getting full rights, I'm not asking to get married in a church with a religious ceremony. I think it's fair enough that they're allowed to abide by their rules and not allow someone who conflicts with their beliefs the option to get married, but that's only in their clubhouse. Outside of which they should have zero say on a completely civil issue that has nothing to do with them.

    +1000. If you're going to deny me rights, at least do it on its own perceived merits, not because some old book with dubious translation says so.

    I did my submission back a few weeks ago, I'm on my phone so I can't find it to link to it. I don't know if it'll help, but at least I tried. I won't watch it online, though. It makes me cry :(


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    #28
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    mango salsa wrote: »
    Because they are lobbying to keep things as they are

    Fuk them, they're irrelevant to the discussion.


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    #29
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    1ZRed wrote: »
    Fuk them, they're irrelevant to the discussion.

    At the end of the day it is a democratic forum and gives people a chance to listen to the arguments for and against change. I don't agree with what they have to say but I've no issue with them saying it.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #30
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    The convention will be live tomorrow and sunday

    http://clients.dv4.com/ccven/

    Follow it on twitter as well on #ccven

    The agenda is here

    https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?mid=0a6d8dd2-a6a2-e211-a5a0-005056a32ee4


    Pantibar will open on Sunday

    http://www.pantibar.com/blog.aspx?contentid=35804

    LGBT noise are also organising events all weekend

    LGBT Noise wrote:
    Hi Everyone,

    On the weekend the Constitutional Convention discusses marriage equality Noise will be holding a series of events:

    1 Noise Volunteer Information Day

    When: Saturday 13th of April 12pm - 3:30pm.
    Where:The Exchange, Exchange Street (near the back of the Front Lounge).
    What: Information on LGBT Rights and Noise campaigns; marriage equality, gender recognition, Section 37, the blood ban etc. There will also be sessions on the history of the Gay Liberation Front, heteronormativity101, intersex issues, the experience of LGBT Travellers and more!
    Venue is fully accessible.
    To attend please RSVP to info@lgbtnoise.ie
    Spread the word on Facebook and join the Facebook event here:https://www.facebook.com/events/595464843797543/?context=create


    2 Community Discussion on Queer Identities

    When Saturday 13th of April 3:30- 5pm
    Where:The Exchange, Exchange Street (near the back of the Front Lounge).
    What: Noise will host a discussion of queer identity and queer politics. All very welcome.
    Venue fully accessible.


    3 LGBT Noise Kiss for Marriage


    When: 12pm Sunday 14th April
    What: The Constitutional Convention* will be examining and voting on the issue of marriage equality on the weekend of April 13th and 14th. To mark this decisive moment, LGBT Noise is organizing a "Kiss-In" at 12 noon on Sunday 14th April in Dublin city. Join us and take part in this fun, inclusive, public demonstration that is set to coincide with a critical moment in the history and future of LGBT rights in Ireland.
    Where: The Kiss-In will take place on South King Street (just off Grafton Street. Outside the Gaiety Theatre)
    Join the facebook event here: https://www.facebook.com/events/298349110293366/?fref=ts


    We hope you can join us for these events and please spread the word.

    Love and noise,

    The Noise Team


    *The Constitutional Convention is a process which will bring together members of the Oireactas and the public to examine 8 key issues which may or may not require Constitutional reform. One of these key issues is 'provision for same sex marriage'.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #31
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Daith wrote: »
    Interesting. Are all three groups against religious groups?

    "Preserve marriage" is a group of gay men against gay marriage

    https://t.co/aqoGlj34l5

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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