Travel within the EU

MingYu

Why is the subject of Directive 2004/38/EU in relation to the UK considered taboo.0

Godge

MingYu wrote: »

Why is the subject of Directive 2004/38/EU in relation to the UK considered taboo.0

Can you explain a bit more, don't know what you are talking about.

MingYu

I wanted to travel to the UK with my wife who is a Chinese Nationalon a short visit to meet up with friends living in Yorkshire. Being Irish myself I could travel freely but my wife being Chinese required a visa to enter the UK. I had to apply through the UK Border Agency for a visa for my wife and I was charged one hundred euro for that privilidge. Needless to say we never got a visa. I made enquiries through the your europe advice service website for information on the issue which resulted in me a submitting a formal complaint to the European Commission concerning Article 5 of Directive 2004/38/EC which said Article states that a visa should be granted to my wife through the British Embassy in Ireland without formality or delay or charge. Seemingly this is provided uunder Articlr 5 of Directive 2004/38/EU.

I have received a response from the office of the Directorate-General Justice of the European Commission in answer to my complaint against the UK Administration upholding my formal complaint. There is mention of the Court of Justice of the European Union contained in the response I received and I would hope to follow this matter up against the UK Border Agency and the British Home Office. Any input would be gratefully accepted.

acme4242

Because you are Irish, the Irish Dept of Justice and Equality say you are not entitled to equality and freedom of travel, so your family
are not exempt from EU visas. Your wife needs a visa, and believe it or not, needs to apply for an Irish visa to come back,
even she already has Irish residence permit in her passport, how arseways is that.

But Now, Lets look at the UK, the UK law already says clearly, that the visa is free of charge

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/1003/regulation/12/made

(4) An EEA family permit issued under this regulation shall be issued free of charge and as soon as possible.

so what is this with going to the European Commission ? you do not have a valid complaint against the UK law.
Solvit should have picked up on this straight away.
Your problem is UK Embassy staff not knowing UK Law.

Recommended reading:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/policyandlaw/guidance/ecg/eun/eun2
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/borderforce/primary-checkpoint/categories-passenger/eea-nationals.pdf?view=Binary
http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08/04/no-visa-but-still-want-to-travel/

The relevant UK Law:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/1003/regulation/11/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/1003/regulation/12/made

Cody Pomeray

OP please disregard the above post.

I am in a similar position to you, being the civil partner of a South African national.

We have encountered the exact same problem in travelling to the UK, France, and Germany.

We were requested for a combination of travel insurance, payment for the Visa, a letter of invitation, and other articles which are specifically precluded for request by the European authorities.

On taking legal advice we were recommended to complain to the European Commission, citing a failure of the member states concerned to act in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EU.

We currently have 3 cases with the Commission, and have received the same letter that it sounds like you have received. We are also taking a case through national channels in respect of the United Kingdom, which I can go through if you want to PM me here.

Cody Pomeray

acme4242 wrote: »

Your wife needs a visa, and believe it or not, needs to apply for an Irish visa to come back,

Link?

My partner has always re-entered the country on his stamp 4 ('residence') visa. No need to re-apply for anything.

acme4242

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Link?

My partner has always re-entered the country on his stamp 4 ('residence') visa. No need to re-apply for anything.

What Nationality is your partner ?

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Re-entry%20visas

And you even need an Irish visa to travel within the Island of Ireland... even you technically don't need a UK visa

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]If you travel to Northern Ireland (Counties Antrim, Armagh, Derry, Down, Fermanagh or Tyrone) you will require a visa to re-enter the Republic of Ireland;[/FONT]

acme4242

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

OP please disregard the above post.
We have encountered the exact same problem in travelling to the UK,
We were requested for a combination of travel insurance, payment for the Visa

What did the UK Embassy say when you showed them the UK law ?
if they refuse to follow their own law, then yes, you must take it up with the European Commission.


And for Schengen Travel, the Law is the Schengen Visa Code,
with following instructions.

http://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/policies/borders/docs/c_2010_1620_en.pdf

PART III: SPECIFIC RULES RELATING TO APPLICANTS WHO ARE FAMILY
MEMBERS OF EU CITIZENS OR SWISS CITIZENS

3.6. Supporting documents
In order to prove that the applicant has the right to be issued with an entry visa under the
Directive, he must establish that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. This is done by
presenting documents relevant for the purposes of the three questions referred to above, i.e.
proving that:
• there is an EU citizen from whom the visa applicant can derive any rights;
• the visa applicant is a family member (e.g. a marriage certificate, birth certificate,
proof of dependency, serious health grounds, durability of partnerships …) and his
identity (passport); and
• the visa applicant accompanies or joins an EU citizen (e.g. a proof that the EU
citizen already resides in the host Member State or a confirmation that the EU
citizen will travel to the host Member State).


It is an established principle of EU law in the area of free movement that visa applicants have
the right of choice of the documentary evidence by which they wish to prove that they are
covered by the Directive (i.e. of the family link, dependency …). Member States may,
however, ask for specific documents (e.g. a marriage certificate as the means of proving the
existence of marriage), but should not refuse other means of proof.

However the German Embassy in Dublin is crazy, even compared to other German Embassies.

Cody Pomeray

In fact, a 3rd country spouse does not have to arrange a Visa when entering Northern Ireland.

Under 2004/38/EC, it is sufficient to arrive at a border crossing and present evidence of marriage, and be granted entry without fee and without any of the usual stipulations (travel insurance,means, etc). This applies across the EU.

Again, my partner has never been required to apply for a re-entry Visa when re-entering Ireland at Dublin Airport. He has probably done this about 10 times under his Stamp 4 ('residence') permit, most recently last week.

I think the INIS link is either badly communicated or taken out of context.

Cody Pomeray

acme4242 wrote: »

What did the UK Embassy say when you showed them the UK law ?

We re-applied, refusing to pay or buy travel insurance, and refusing to provide means or a letter of invitation, and they refused on the same grounds, using the same wording - essentially ignoring Community law.

There were more than 2 problems with the UK, I don't want to go into the details on a public board. Needless to say the OP's experiences of the UK's intransigence is well founded in my experience, and in the experience of others I have met.

Jacovs

Im a South African citizen with Ireland residency, stamp 4. My partner is Irish and we have an irish born child.

As far as I know if I want to travel to the UK with or without my family I need a visa.

If I want to travel to mainland Europe by myself I need a Schengen visa. If my EU citizen child is with me then I dont need a Schengen visa or any other visa.

Do not have to reapply for anything if you wish to get back into Ireland. Although if you are from a country who would usually require a visa to enter Ireland, and you left Ireland for a long time then you would probably need a new visa, since most residency visas have conditions attached to them. Such as being resident in Ireland for a certain ammount of time every year.

Cody Pomeray

If your partner or child is with you, it is true you don't need a Schengen Visa to enter the country, but you probably will need one to board the aircraft.

In theory the Schengen Visa/ UK visa is free of charge and is granted without hindrance or delay (for you, as a spouse of an EEA citizen), so it is usually best just to have one.

As most people experience, the idea of a UK entry visa being free or granted without hindrance or delay is a joke.

acme4242

have they changed the STAMP-4 in recent times ?, ours is 4 years old,
it was like an ink stamp, that looks nothing like a proper residence
permit or visa.

You are 100% correct about being allowed entry without visa,
but the problem if you are flying, you got to pass the airline TIMATIC visa check

lets see what its says
http://www.klm.com/travel/sg_en/prepare_for_travel/travel_planning/travel_clinic/visaform.htm

National South Africa (ZA) /Residence Ireland (Rep.) (IE)
Embarkation Ireland (Rep.) (IE)
Destination United Kingdom (GB)

United Kingdom (GB)
:
:
Visa required, except for Holders of an EEA Family Permit
issued by the UK, providing the holder is travelling with, or
to join the EEA or Swiss national.

acme4242

You are right

I ran the TIMATIC check, for flying back to Ireland and now they accept Residence Permit
before they only accept Re-entry visa

Visa required, except for Holders of a Residence/Re-entry
Permit issued by Ireland (Rep.).

jesus.. when did this happen

Cody Pomeray

acme4242 wrote: »

have they changed the STAMP-4 in recent times ?, ours is 4 years old,
it was like an ink stamp, that looks nothing like a proper residence
permit or visa.

Yes, the new issues are still made with an ink stamp, with the duration of the visa written in with a biro.

petronius

The Idea that you'd need ID or a visa travelling within Ireland is Insane.

The Irish government should just sanction all UK travel visas to allow for people to travel to Ireland, i mean can you imagine say a tourist visiting the UK, decide they may spend a few days in ireland, only to find they need a visa ???? Lost Business!

Our passports should have the last page duplicated as an travel id pass rather than having to use the whole passport for some journeys between EU and EEA countries was on a ferry when i was digging in my bag for my documents and passport, a german friend just showed their card from the back of their passport.

In the past even before many of the barriers of travel were removed in the EU, you were able to travel between the benelux countries without a passport.