Big 8 Training Thread - sub 5 min mile training

ecoli

Hopefully there will be enough interest in this thread to make it a runner (excuse the pun). I look at alot of runners on the forum and they gravitate to the longer distances like HM and Marathon which is fair enough as it is what they enjoy most. However I feel that alot of people miss out on other aspects of training and education of the sport which could be vital for them improving in the long run.

Dont get me wrong miles are very important but working on different systems ,running economy and form can have a major benefit in helping people straying from the "plodder" label (reference to a persons stride rather than their pace)

As such the aim of a series of threads will be to tackle the Big 8 targets through training and hopefully get a few to do try it out.

Personally I am going through this with a long term approach to my training where I am spending this summer working on speeds at 800-5k with the aim of this translating to improved economy over the longer distances when I debut in the marathon next year.

I am of the firm believe that about 60% of the forum could get close to the 5 min barrier if they applied the same training time they do now to the all aspects of training normally associated with 1500m running. The benefits IMO would also translate to improved performance across the board.

And before the notion that there are not enough opportunities to run the mile here is a list of some mile races over the next while both for club members and newbies alike;

Tues 19th Feb|Alsaa Winter League
Mar 20th| Wicklow Fit4Life mile
16th April| Alsaa Winter League


Couple these with the BHAA and Dublin Gradeds give plenty of opportunity to compete at this distance and keep the motivation going

Rather than the debate formats I aim to leave to people looking for advice and people sharing information. There is a good few who compete at this distance already on the forum so should be able to drum up some sort of discussion

RayCun

a lot of people on the forum listen to the marathon talk podcasts, and know one of the presenters spent last summer in mile training. His training diary is here

Letyourselfgo

Good idea.
I've always concentrated mainly on longer and after missing the last 2/3 months I'm finding it hard to get motivated when I think of the longer stuff. This could be exactly what I'm looking for.
How many weeks do you reckon someone needs in the base phase?

ecoli

RayCun wrote: »

a lot of people on the forum listen to the marathon talk podcasts, and know one of the presenters spent last summer in mile training. His training diary is here

This is the exact kinda thing I am talking about working on prepping the body to run fast. After your body is able to run at this pace physically you then can work on strength to be able to maintain it for longer periods

ecoli

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

Good idea.
I've always concentrated mainly on longer and after missing the last 2/3 months I'm finding it hard to get motivated when I think of the longer stuff. This could be exactly what I'm looking for.
How many weeks do you reckon someone needs in the base phase?

Personally I am coming back from inconsistent training before training (maybe 1-2 runs a week for a few months) So I spent 4 weeks on base then incorporated more general sessions.

My aim is to start more specific sessions come May but tbh I am doing a bit of light speed development stuff now just to prep my body to be able to make an easy transistion

You should always keep in touch with speed but this does not mean you have to do speed sessions if that makes any sense

Short hills, strides etc are a good way off doing this with long recoveries so that you are working on form rather than turning them into a session.

What I would suggest would be 4-6 weeks of base throwing in 4-6 *60-80m strides twice a week after runs should prep you to begin sessions from then on

Letyourselfgo

Thanks for that, 4 weeks sounds good and should be manageable. I find it hard to run easy most of the time and end up throwing some fast stuff in when I shouldn't.
Have you any examples of some bread and butter sessions aimed at 800m/1 mile.

BeepBeep67

<averts attention, mustn't look until May>

BeepBeep67

What I've always found with the mile is you'll rarely get it right on your first attempt in a season. So incorporating a few races before your target race helps, even a few shorter/longer (800/3000) ones.
Pacing is critical and nearly as important as the training, going out too hard or pushing too early and the race is over. Getting a few races under your belt will let you know where your strengths and weaknesses are.

ecoli

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

Thanks for that, 4 weeks sounds good and should be manageable. I find it hard to run easy most of the time and end up throwing some fast stuff in when I shouldn't.
Have you any examples of some bread and butter sessions aimed at 800m/1 mile.

I think if you are going to focus on the mile then the idea would be 2-3 sessions a week with one primary session being the focus based around 1500m pace (or mile pace)

In terms of this specific session one of the most classic sessions would be 8*400m @ 1500m pace off double recovery and the aim would be to reduce the recovery week by week till you are down at roughly equal recovery (1:1)

The aim would be to build the other sessions around this so if you were operating off a 2 session a week schedule I would say alternate this between an 800m session and a 3k/5k each week

Some examples of sessions which come to mind would be

800m Sessions
8x300m @800m pace with triple recovery
600, 500, 400 with double recovery @ 800-1500 pace
4x400 @ 800m with 5-10 min rec (late season session)

3k/5k sessions
12-16 x 400m @ 3k pace with 50% recovery
5x1k @ 3k-5k pace w/ (1:1 recovery)
3x1 mile @ 5k pace with 3-5 min rec

I know some people would also advocate Time Trials and would be interested to know peoples ideas on this.

Others may feel a different approach may work better this is just a general idea of the outline. The mile takes a blend of strength and speed so other aspects should be addressed other than just simply the sessions.

I would spend alot of time working on form drills etc to allow the body to be able to run economically at these higher speed

Another aspect that I found useful last year was doing sets of short reps with short recovery in between and longer recovery in between sets for example

2 x (3x200m w/ 30 sec recovery) 3 min recovery between sets
2 x (2x300m w/ 30 sec recovery) 3 min recovery between sets
2 x (2x400m w/ 30 sec recovery) 3 min recovery between sets

I found this sort of progression idea really useful early stage as with the short recoveries I was finding it aerobically challenging the bigger recoveries made sure that form wasn't being affected but it was simulating trying to run relaxed when tired

ecoli

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

What I've always found with the mile is you'll rarely get it right on your first attempt in a season. So incorporating a few races before your target race helps, even a few shorter/longer (800/3000) ones.
Pacing is critical and nearly as important as the training, going out too hard or pushing too early and the race is over. Getting a few races under your belt will let you know where your strengths and weaknesses are.

I think this is an important factor. Unlike longer distances it tends to be that people have to race themselves sharp for the most part. I think someone mentioned before it normally takes atleast 3-4 races before you start to come into race shape properly.

I think this could be an argument for Time Trials I suppose

oldrunner

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Pacing is critical and nearly as important as the training, going out too hard or pushing too early and the race is over. Getting a few races under your belt will let you know where your strengths and weaknesses are.

Totally agree. There are two sides to getting the mile right - preparation in the form of training and race execution.

Training in line with ecoli's suggestions will cover the first part but I've seen a lot of people under perform in races because of poor execution. A few things that I think are important (mainly aimed at runners with little or no mile racing experience):

Don't run the race in lane two - especially round the bends. It's roughly 7metres a lap extra. I'm always happy to get an effective 28m lead. Even running tight to the bend as opposed to the outside of lane 1 can save yards. If you're running for time rather than race position then the worry of getting boxed in is not too important.

Track running packs usually run tighter than road races - you won't have as much room. There can be a bit of pushing and tipping of heels. This can put some people off. A couple of races on the track will sort this out.

I've seen many people struggle because they are racing at a pace that they are really unfamiliar with. McMillan predicts a 36min 10k as equivalent to a 5 minute mile. That's roughly 5:47 a mile - it's a long way down to 5 minute pace and it feels different. Training with the right sessions helps get used to the leg speed needed but when you line up for a race and haven't done it before, the mind and the body can make it hard for you to hit the speed you need if you have a lot of long distance race experience. When you get going, it's going to feel 'wrong' and your mind will be screaming this is too fast. Time trials over 1k or 1200m can help replicate the feeling you will have in a mile race.

I don't think pacing is as straightforward as running an even pace. I find there is a rhythm to the race that is often followed:
The race will always start faster than the average pace. In a typical sub 5 mile, the first 200m can be run in 33/34 seconds. Pace will then settle to the steady run pace. If you hear 72 at the end of the first lap, that means you have probably ran 33, 39 for the lap and could now be running at too slow a pace (78 a lap - i.e. 2x39, your current race pace). Also, if you hear 72 you will be tempted to slow down if you are aiming for sub 5, thinking you are 3 seconds ahead of your 75 second first lap target - you're not don't panic maintain your effort.
The second lap is usually pretty comfortable - you've settled into a nice race pace and the distance hasn't caught up on you yet. If you have maintained your effort, you should have put in a 76 second lap and be through 800m in 2:28
The third lap is tough - that's when your time will be earned. You are starting to feel the effort and still have a long way to go. You need to work hard through this lap - at this point your effort should be increasing to maintain the same pace. Typically, there will be a slight drop in your lap speed, maybe 77 for this lap and you're through in 3:45.
You need to run the last 409 metres below 75 - that means you need to get back to roughly 72 for the lap (that extra 9 metres takes 1.6 seconds at 72 a lap pace). One lap is easy - you can sense the finish line and will be driving for home. You will be thinking about sprinting the last 300 and that should give you a few extra seconds to bring the pace to 72 a lap and a finish in 4:59.

ecoli

Some excellent points there from old runner

I tend to agree there is alot more hustle and bustle in a mile race and as such I think there are times where you will have a good bit of pace changing depending on the race.

I think coming from a distance perspective myself I find it easier to try hold on to a faster pace as opposed to winding it up in the second half of the race. As such I think that for me personally 3rd lap is always make or break time and is where concentration needs to be at its max

In terms of the mile being that bit extra I tend to find that I account for this in the first lap because tend to go out a little faster anyway so I am for the 409 to be what I would be aiming for the 400 in a 1500m

In terms of getting used to pace changes I remember one of the lads previously running a session along the lines of

6x400m @ 800/1500/800/1500/800/1500 paces with 3 min rec as a good way off prepping the body for these kinda pace changes

Also the 5k sessions can be adapted to address your weaknesses in a race sometimes (5x1k with 1st/last 200m hard and 800m even paced)

The mile is a blend of speed and strength and as such you have to tailor how you run it and also how you train for it. Aim to address the weaknesses. So often people get bogged down with the 400m splits as a total but just remember an 80 sec lap can be very different depending on how it is comprised (a 40/40 compared to a 35/45) While normally we are trained as distance runners to maintain even paced splits there are times when adjusting these to suit the needs of the individual

Pisco Sour

It's the big 10 now, not the big 8.

I ran a mile a couple of years back before taking up sprinting in 5:48. Last Sunday I ran the 1500m at the end of a decathlon in 5:04. Last year at the same event I went 5:28. That time would he worth a sub 5 1500m if done fresh, not with 9 events in the legs. So I'm prob in 5:20 mile shape right now. I've no intention of targetting this event any time soon but I found it interesting how much I improved based on 400m speed endurance training with not a bit of mileage in the legs. Got me wondering is there a short to long approach for the mile?

davegrohl48

Good training is to pair up with someone and run 200 fast and 200 recover. The 200 fast after second lap won't be a sprint but will be a stride. The running partner will bring out 5% more effort.
For 5 min mile type speeds I think you need a lot of speed work, leg power and mental strength type sessions. The sessions have to be intense, relatively short and mentally painful. Not too many per week or you'll burn yourself out.

pconn062

Great idea for a thread, I ran 5.07 for the mile in December and again in January off no specific training. The second one was a race and I probably lost a second or two in a slow second lap as I sat in with the group rather than pushing on like you would in a time trial. I intend to focus on 800/1500m for the summer so hopefully that training will help me get under the 5 minute mark.

wrstan

ecoli wrote: »

In terms of this specific session one of the most classic sessions would be 8*400m @ 1500m pace off double recovery and the aim would be to reduce the recovery week by week till you are down at roughly equal recovery (1:1)

Thanks for starting the thread ecoli

Can you explain what you mean by triple, double and equal recovery.

Thanks

ecoli

Pisco Sour wrote: »

It's the big 10 now, not the big 8.

For the purpose of this thread I reverted back to the big 8 format for the simple reason that there are not enough 400/800 races outside of the gradeds to make it a viable option to get people to train for a race they are not able to compete in unless they are already a club member (This is designed to getting people to aim for a more practical approach than a general training thread) it could also bridge a gap for some people between club running and solo running.
You are more than welcome to set up a training thread for the other two or even revive some of the previous ones I have started up

Pisco Sour wrote: »

I ran a mile a couple of years back before taking up sprinting in 5:48. Last Sunday I ran the 1500m at the end of a decathlon in 5:04. Last year at the same event I went 5:28. That time would he worth a sub 5 1500m if done fresh, not with 9 events in the legs. So I'm prob in 5:20 mile shape right now. I've no intention of targetting this event any time soon but I found it interesting how much I improved based on 400m speed endurance training with not a bit of mileage in the legs. Got me wondering is there a short to long approach for the mile?

While you have not been doing mileage you have still be doing aerobic power not to mention having another year of proper training under you could it simply be a case that you are just generally fitter (in a running sense) this year?

People tend to forget that its not just this seasons training that stands to you but the training built up over the previous few years.

Over the last few years of high mileage what I have found was that after any sort of breaks my fitness tends to return quicker each time. What used to take me a couple of months to get back into some form of shape now takes about 4-6 weeks.

Your speed stuff will definitely have an impact on the improvement that is obvious but the lack of strength is apparent in the drop offs in time and I would say that aerobically well trained for the longer distances there is no reason why you wouldnt have the capability to run in the 4.30s for a mile within 12 months.

There can be a case of short to long training with all distances and this is one which you find with Daniels plans. Canova similarly in his marathon training aims to focus on the race pace first and builds volume from there

ecoli

wrstan wrote: »

Thanks for starting the thread ecoli

Can you explain what you mean by triple, double and equal recovery.

Thanks

Basically equal recovery is taking as long as it takes for you to complete a rep.I prefer this than saying 1 min rec etc simply because you change the dynamics of a session depending on the athlete

If you look at 2 athletes (Call them Fran and Paul)

Fran is a 4 min miler runner so session prescribed would be 8x400 in 60s with 60 sec recovery (roughly equal)

Compare that to Paul who is a 5 min miler so session would be 8x400s in 75 with 60 sec recovery

By setting the recovery at 1 min you are actually making the slower runner run at the same effort with a shorter recovery. So by setting the recovery based on a runners level you are ensuring they are doing the same workout in terms of what you are trying to achieve

davegrohl48

ecoli wrote: »

Basically equal recovery is taking as long as it takes for you to complete a rep.I prefer this than saying 1 min rec etc simply because you change the dynamics of a session depending on the athlete

If you look at 2 athletes (Call them Fran and Paul)

Fran is a 4 min miler runner so session prescribed would be 8x400 in 60s with 60 sec recovery (roughly equal)

Compare that to Paul who is a 5 min miler so session would be 8x400s in 75 with 60 sec recovery

By setting the recovery at 1 min you are actually making the slower runner run at the same effort with a shorter recovery. So by setting the recovery based on a runners level you are ensuring they are doing the same workout in terms of what you are trying to achieve

Would those be slow jog recoveries? I always liked those so that when you start up again the running start is more like majority of a race.
Standing starts are pretty tough mentally I find.

Pisco Sour

ecoli wrote: »

While you have not been doing mileage you have still be doing aerobic power not to mention having another year of proper training under you could it simply be a case that you are just generally fitter (in a running sense) this year?

Yeh probably. The speed endurance sessions certainly do increase aerobic capacity. Obviously they are designed towards 400m, but there are residual benefits to the 800m and 1500m (I'd be fascinated to see what I could run 5k right now off nothing specific, might do one during the off season for the craic and as an experiment to see if the sprint training makes a difference). I think also the fact that my stride is so much better now and my leg speed is greater than before also are a factor at the improved 1500m performance. (Along with bloody determination to save face after a shameful pole vault and javelin. )

ecoli wrote: »

Your speed stuff will definitely have an impact on the improvement that is obvious but the lack of strength is apparent in the drop offs in time and I would say that aerobically well trained for the longer distances there is no reason why you wouldnt have the capability to run in the 4.30s for a mile within 12 months.

I assume you mean 4:30 for 1500m. I think saying I can run 4:30 for the mile with just 12 months of dedicated specific training is putting a very positive spin on things!

ecoli

Nope was referring to the mile (although by 4.30s I meant sub 4.40). I firmly believe that 12 months ideal training someone could get in the 4.40-5 min region (depending on where they are coming from). Would it be easy? no but provided they put the effort into training (not just the miles but all aspects of training) and the body was able to stay healthy there is no reason why they couldn't

In terms of 5k however I think your lack of endurance would become apparent and I would not imagine that it would not be a pretty sight. I seem to recall a few miler coaches advocating a 5k session after the base phase a week being enough to maintain strength throughout the season (to a point obviously) but this is one approach that some low mileage coaches use to tackle to issue of aerobic maintenance without the need for high volume low intensity mileage

While others keep the runs at closer to a tempo effort while keeping mileage low as a way of getting the most out of the easy days aerobically

ecoli

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Would those be slow jog recoveries? I always liked those so that when you start up again the running start is more like majority of a race.
Standing starts are pretty tough mentally I find.

Personally I prefer active recoveries where possible as I find it helps flush the legs slightly however I know some athletes prefer a static recovery and mentally feel that they are recovering better when they stand still

The only thing I would say is in terms of muscle contractions going from 0-60 mpw and then stop and do it all over again will put serious demand on the muscles and could increase injury risk

rom

What is the reason behind the different active recovery times other than getting you able to do another rep. I wait until my HR goes back down to easy run effort which is normally 90-120 secs max after 2M repeats. I have never done 400s but just wondering. I have heard of session with 15 mins recovery but don't understand why. Obviously it would be easier to do the 2nd rep then but what is happening in that 15 mins or 2 mins is really my question ?

Timmaay

Good thread Ecoli, the mile is one of my personal favorites, and an event that I think many of the distance athletes naively write themselves off in! At the end of the day, it's firmly an aerobic event, only difference between it and 5k/10k is the sessions you do (obviously shorter/more intense). Lets face it, an athlete who runs say 18mins for a 5k is already doing comfortably sub6 miles, they have no excuse not be able to break 5mins for a mile with a small bit of specific training, but I often see the likes of them give a mile a shot, come in say 5.20/30+ because they were not prepared for the pace and totally fudged their race, then write themselves off as not being able for the shorter stuff.

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

What I've always found with the mile is you'll rarely get it right on your first attempt in a season. So incorporating a few races before your target race helps, even a few shorter/longer (800/3000) ones.

Keep the 1500 in mind also as a very useful distance to help your mile time, as there tends to be far more 1500m races during the track season than mile races. For most of us a 1500 is going to be very close to 20seconds quicker than our mile time, sticking to that rule makes it very easy to compare both events! (having said that my 1500 is 30sec quicker than my mile, time to get the figure out and run a proper mile!)

ecoli

rom wrote: »

What is the reason behind the different active recovery times other than getting you able to do another rep. I wait until my HR goes back down to easy run effort which is normally 90-120 secs max after 2M repeats. I have never done 400s but just wondering. I have heard of session with 15 mins recovery but don't understand why. Obviously it would be easier to do the 2nd rep then but what is happening in that 15 mins or 2 mins is really my question ?

This is a pretty interesting question and one which I think alot of people (including myself at times) tend to not look at the reasons of why we set the recoveries at the level they are at

At the moment I am actually incorporating something along the lines of what you have described. A recent session I did was 2*200m with 9 min rec. The aim of this sessions was to work on the neurological pathways and fast twitch fibre muscle recruitment. This was the sole purpose of the session so as such HR did not matter because the aim was just to fully recover in between reps. This allowed for maximal fast twitch fibre recruitment because I was running at top speed. If the legs are fatigued you are not able to do this and as such you are destroying the purpose of the session

Manipulating the recovery period can turn any session into an aerobic endurance one. An example of this I remember reading about Kipketer running 40-50 x 100m reps which kept the session aerobic simply because the body is not able to go for these durations without using oxygen

Canova also touched on this with the mention that something like 2-3 sets of 10x150m @ 1 mile pace can be used as a good form of tempo for 800m runners.

As such the recoveries help change the energy pathways being worked. With milers there is roughly 65% of energy derived from the aerobic system with the rest coming from the Anaerobic and phosphate so as such you need to get the right blend for the individual within a plan

No one aspect can be ignored which is why getting the right blend in training and recoveries in miler training can be slightly different to the normal approach taken from distance mentality

antomagoo

May be a naive question, but when I run shorter interval reps, 200,400,800 I find I change my stride to a more faster/choppy stride if that makes sense. So would the type of training your suggesting in this thread help to make the body run longer with this "faster" style or should I even be changing my style at all for the shorter distances?

Also would a couple of sessions of lactate threshold runs be of benefit in training to run a quick mile?

ecoli

antomagoo wrote: »

May be a naive question, but when I run shorter interval reps, 200,400,800 I find I change my stride to a more faster/choppy stride if that makes sense. So would the type of training your suggesting in this thread help to make the body run longer with this "faster" style or should I even be changing my style at all for the shorter distances?

Also would a couple of sessions of lactate threshold runs be of benefit in training to run a quick mile?

There is usually a notable difference in stride alright especially over the likes of 800 you tend to get up on the balls of your feet more and there is more knee drive than normally experienced with long distance runners. These high speed efforts work on running economy so as such there is an improvement in how efficiently you running style is which transfers to the longer distances.

However this is something which needs to be worked on and form drills are something which I think all runners should be doing regardless of distance. Personally I spend about 20 min before my quality days doing these and use them as part of my warm up

In terms of lactate threshold work these are very important for 1500m runners and certainly something which should be used in training. I know Nic Bideau in Australia and many other Lydiardites who follow the pattern of Vo2/reps, Tempo, Hills as the basis for early parts of thei training year

pconn062

Thought I'd give this thread a bump. I know a lot of the guys on here are long distance focused but it's between marathon seasons at the minute so some people might be interested in giving a mile race a bash (aside from the beer kind!). Anyone have a mile race planned? Any tactics or training in mind? I'm looking for a race to give sub 5 a bash at the minute.

Timmaay

Interested that you bump it tonight, there is a mile at the graded tomorrow night in Tallaght! If that is too soon for ya, there will be an invitational mile at the Bray Runners track meeting on the Greystones track, I'm fairly sure its on Tue June 18th, more information will be up on the bray runners website in time, or maybe Krusty Clown or one of the other bray lads can give further details!

I wouldn't mind giving the mile a bash also myself, the 4.30 mark is there for taking at the minute hopefully!

pconn062

Timmaay wrote: »

Interested that you bump it tonight, there is a mile at the graded tomorrow night in Tallaght! If that is too soon for ya, there will be an invitational mile at the Bray Runners track meeting on the Greystones track, I'm fairly sure its on Tue June 18th, more information will be up on the bray runners website in time, or maybe Krusty Clown or one of the other bray lads can give further details!

I wouldn't mind giving the mile a bash also myself, the 4.30 mark is there for taking at the minute hopefully!

I was hoping to make it to the Graded meets tomorrow night but it's just a bit of a spin and I will be limited with work unfortunately. A neighbouring club usually organises a monthly mile time trial so I'm waiting to get their June date, if not I'm thinking of organising one my self at training some night soon. 4.30 is quality running, I've done a few sessions recently that suggest a mile time of around 4.55 so mad to give one a bash and see! Have you any sessions you've used to give you an indication of your current mile shape?

Timmaay

Got a pb of 4.08 for the 1500 on Sat so should be on for it. Have you done many 1500s or miles lately anyways, or are you doing mostly longer stuff? I will fully admit that these two distances usually need 2 or 3 shots at before you get the pacing etc right, so easy to go out too hard 1st lap and lose concentration in the 3rd lap. The graded/IMC etc really come into theirown also in terms of you know you will have a race on your hands, letting someone else do the work makes a massive difference, you might not have that in a local race.

pconn062

Timmaay wrote: »

Got a pb of 4.08 for the 1500 on Sat so should be on for it. Have you done many 1500s or miles lately anyways, or are you doing mostly longer stuff? I will fully admit that these two distances usually need 2 or 3 shots at before you get the pacing etc right, so easy to go out too hard 1st lap and lose concentration in the 3rd lap. The graded/IMC etc really come into theirown also in terms of you know you will have a race on your hands, letting someone else do the work makes a massive difference, you might not have that in a local race.

Have been training for the track for about the last month or so, earlier in the year it was mostly 3-5k I was training for. Ran 4.42 for 1500m at the last graded meet but it was a very slow first 800m, think I could run 4.35 right now in a faster race. I'm running 1500m at the Leinster champs in Tullamore on Sunday I think so will hopefully get a PB there!