knees knees knees, what to do with those knees.

thebouldwhacker

A mixture of too many hills too quickly, not getting any younger and still tweeking the saddle positions on the bikes has resulted in my left knee getting stiff over the last week or so. Technically its injured I guess but its more a stiffness below the knee cap which I now need to rest before it does turn into a problem.
I am not looking for medical advice but I am looking for recommendations for a good sports physio in the south east. Also any tips on knee care and injury prevention would be good too. I know the basics but there's always room for learning
Thanks!

Beasty

Moved from Cycling training logs

Physio recommendations are fine, tips on knee care is akin to medical advice which is not permitted - please leave that to the physio

Thanks

Beasty

thebouldwhacker

Agreed, I was thinking more about bike specific exercises, tips on bike fit, hill climbing, flexibility, stretching etc rather than asking the internet about my health.

maloner

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

A mixture of too many hills too quickly, not getting any younger and still tweeking the saddle positions on the bikes has resulted in my left knee getting stiff over the last week or so. Technically its injured I guess but its more a stiffness below the knee cap which I now need to rest before it does turn into a problem.
I am not looking for medical advice but I am looking for recommendations for a good sports physio in the south east. Also any tips on knee care and injury prevention would be good too. I know the basics but there's always room for learning
Thanks!

http://www.ranelaghphysio.ie/

Poor website. Good physio.

ednwireland

keep em warm (as in sean kelly saying dont ride with your knees uncovered if its less than 15 degrees)
and see a physio took 3 months last i strained a tendon in the back of my knee

shaka

You know the problem already, too much too soon . Give it a break till you see physio

doozerie

I used to warm up my knees before climbing on the bike for a spin and I always found it useful. Here the simple exercises I used to do, I'd do both sets which would take no more than a couple of minutes at most:

a) stand with feet together and knees together, bend knees and rest your hands on them, and circle your knees one way 10 or 20 times and then the other way the same number of times. This loosens out your ankles and hips a little too, which is useful.

b) while standing on one leg, raise the other knee to hip height, right angle at hip and right angle at knee, and keeping your knee at that height, circle the foot of the raised leg one way 10 or 20 times and then the other way 10 or 20 times. Not a bad exercise for balance either, kind of exercises your core a little.

In addition, once on the bike I'd make a point of sticking with low gears, and relatively high cadence, until I felt my legs were well and truly warmed up.

I stopped doing all of that some time back, I just found less need for it over time. There are a few reasons for that - I was spending more time back on the bike for one, but I don't think that was really it as it wasn't as if more time on the bike was alleviating the problems. I was spending less and less time at my other sporting pasttime, martial arts, so my knees were not getting the hammering they'd been used to, that was almost certainly a factor. I also changed my bike position dramatically (was fortunate enough to buy an off-the-peg bike that just fit really well, and subsequently had that improved further by a professional bike kit), and I'm certain that tackled some persistent knee niggles that had bothered me on and off for years.

So I'd look at your bike fit again (maybe consider getting a bike fit done?), I'd warm up my knees before getting on the bike each time, I'd dress warm (I still follow that rule of thumb to only wear shorts above 16C but even then I always err on the side of caution - knee warmers are a versatile and convenient option since you can remove them easily mid-ride), I'd watch which gears I was using (spin, rather than grind, would be my choice though I've seen some conflicting views on this), and I'd stretch after each ride.

Knee problems are extremely annoying and it used to get me down at times to think that my issues were not going away no matter how careful I was. Having always been quite active it really bothered me to think that a joint issue might curtail my activities. Over the years I tweaked my bike setup here and there to try to help but I realise now that I was working further and further away from a good setup and I was prolonging my problems in the process. In my case I think a proper bike fit would have helped a lot and much sooner, so I'd highly recommend it. I'd always considered a proper bike fit an unnecessary expense, but now I consider it money very well spent (for me anyway).

Diarmuid

Following a good stretching regime would be a good idea too. Quads, Hamstrings, ITB and calves. All those muscles are connected to the knee and have a big impact on them

NeedMoreGears

I'd agree with Doozerie re bike set up being very important. I've had two bouts of knee pain in the past year - both we due to bike set up. My cleats moved slightly on the right shoe and separately the saddle shifted backward about 3cm. Once I restored normal set up and tightened things up properly the pain went away thankfully.

com1

doozerie wrote: »

I used to warm up my knees before climbing on the bike for a spin...

Why am I humming The Hokey Cokey after reading that post? Now, for the rest of the day the damn Hokey Cokey... Thank you very much Doozerie, thank you very much! (ooh hokey cokey cokey...)

Oh, and by the way I'd second a professional fit (Leo in irishfit.eu sorted me out last December - very pleased with the results)

TheBlaaMan

You could try Seamus Conway if you're close ...

http://www.waterfordbusiness.com/company-listing/Health/Sports-Therapy-Waterford/517/135/

ROK ON

Your mistake is hills. I am doing all in my power to avoid hills this yea and I am happy to report that the strategy is paying off thusfar.

Also, I can count on bithe hands the amount if time last year that I cycled in this country with using either legwarmers, kneewarmers or embrocation.

Lumen

doozerie wrote: »

I still follow that rule of thumb to only wear shorts above 16C but even then I always err on the side of caution

There's absolutely no way you're going to get temperature-inflicted knee damage anywhere near 16C.

What are you, Italian or something?

doozerie

Lumen wrote: »

There's absolutely no way you're going to get temperature-inflicted knee damage anywhere near 16C.

Speak for yourself, my knees are delicate flowers that need to be protected from the harsh elements.

Lumen wrote:

What are you, Italian or something?

"Why yes! And all this talk of knees is making me frisky. Get your knees out! I like knees! Let me squeeze them! Phwoooaaarrr!"

thebouldwhacker

TheBlaaMan wrote: »

You could try Seamus Conway if you're close ...

http://www.waterfordbusiness.com/company-listing/Health/Sports-Therapy-Waterford/517/135/

Is he on the road out of tramore toward the Waterford Cork road?


Avoiding hills is hard when I live at the bottom of one, I think that's why I need to warm up, I normally start my spins with 20mins of climbing. Great for the fitness and for warming up these cold evenings but hard on the body.

Thanks for all the replies, a great help, ill just have to suffer on.
A beach run tonight instead of a spin, isolated empty beach, great night time views, just me and my thoughts on soft sand.... no one said this would be easy...

Lusk Doyle

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Avoiding hills is hard when I live at the bottom of one

Can't you just go the other direction? I'm no scientist but that seems logical to me!

thebouldwhacker

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

Can't you just go the other direction? I'm no scientist but that seems logical to me!

I would but I live on the coast, I got beach, water and hills.
I could take up swimming I guess.

Science is saved again.

bcmf

I used to suffer from really stiff knees. A few awkward bike falls and a really nasty soccer injury (which ended my footie days and subsequently robbed this country from a supreme talent) really had me in pain after any kind of effort.
I changed my pedaling style to keeping my foot flat thru the pedal stroke rather then lifting the heel. I found cleat position to be crucial and am dreading changing my cleats.
Also found that , much to Lumen's horror, I try and keep my knees covered with not too tight knee warmers but had to make sure the grippers were well away from the back of my knee as I felt it restricted blood flow.
Did some tough hill repeats turning the 53 ring in a very low cadence to build the muscles back up yest afternoon and had no problems form the aul knee's yest or today

The Big Lebowsky

1. Try using a compact chainset..ie 34-50 tooth chainrings...use smaller gears..More spinning, and less stomping on those pedals.. especially on those hills..

2. This isn't medical advice, but if you have pain behind your knee cap....try raising your seat height a little...

3. Have a proper bike-fit done...

4..speedplay pedals are great for people who have knackered knees...

Hope this helps

Konkers

bcmf wrote: »

.....subsequently robbed this country from a supreme talent.....QUOTE]

Shocking stuff, so which supreme talent has the country now......:D

Sorry

+ one on the bike fit and the knee warmers in cold conditions especially if you re climbing as on the descent all your warming up and stretching could come to nothing.

bcmf

Konkers wrote: »

bcmf wrote: »

.....subsequently robbed this country from a supreme talent.....QUOTE]

Shocking stuff, so which supreme talent has the country now......:D

None since I was cruelly taken from my prime by a lumpy pitch.

CardinalJ

As mentioned earlier, stretching is hugely beneficial to preventing injury. I use a foam roller religiously.

I've suffered pain in the tendon under the knee cap (patellar) and find stretching my quad as often as possible helps hugely. Obviously if the pains bad get to a physio/doctor, but stretching can help massively.

thebouldwhacker

Cheers. I had a spin on my tourer last evening with full bags and had to lift the saddle about 2cm after 40km. I think the damage was done a few weeks ago but the wrong saddle height with load and hills just came together at the wrong time.
I think the suggestions above are all good solid advice. Prevention is better than cure.

Ryaner

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies, a great help, ill just have to suffer on.

As someone who tried that approach, don't. Long term it doesn't work.
And if it doesn't start getting better, and the physio/consultant starts saying you just need more time for it to improve, ask for a second opinion. Recent experience has thought me that that is code for I've no idea what the actual cause is.

Brian?

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Cheers. I had a spin on my tourer last evening with full bags and had to lift the saddle about 2cm after 40km. I think the damage was done a few weeks ago but the wrong saddle height with load and hills just came together at the wrong time.
I think the suggestions above are all good solid advice. Prevention is better than cure.

Honestly horse, I wouldn't take any advice from this thread unless it's a physio reccomendation.

I can name a very long list of stuff that could be effecting your knees but you need to see a physio to find out what's wrong.

doozerie

Brian? wrote: »

Honestly horse, I wouldn't take any advice from this thread unless it's a physio reccomendation.

Hmm, in-thread advice to ignore in-thread advice, that creates quite a conundrum.

JMcL

If you're close to or in Waterford, I got a bike fit in Spokes a while back and it made a huge difference. I'd been tinkering with the saddle for a while, but was still wide off the mark.

Though not a physio, the missus went to the chiropractor in Manor village (round the back of the Spar beside the land registry) a couple of years ago. He worked wonders on hip pain she'd been having. She was saying he had testimonials up from the Munster rugby team, so I'm guessing he's used to sports injuries

Brian?

doozerie wrote: »

Hmm, in-thread advice to ignore in-thread advice, that creates quite a conundrum.

Hardly. The OP needs to see a physio if wants his knee pain diagnosed correctly.

doozerie

Brian? wrote: »

Hardly. The OP needs to see a physio if wants his knee pain diagnosed correctly.

Suggesting that the OP ignore all of the advice would be sensible if the advice had been that he not seek professional medical help or something equally unhelpful or possibly damaging. But that wasn't the nature of the advice at all. The advice given all focused on things that he could do himself to potentially alleviate the symptoms, or to avoid a future recurrence, via the likes of warm ups, stretching, means of putting less stress directly on the knees while cycling, etc. That advice is not mutually exclusive to obtaining professional medical help, quite the contrary in fact.

The circumstances that led to his injury could have arisen for a multitude of reasons, from an underlying medical issue to something to do with how he rides his bike. It makes sense to look at as many of these possible causes as he can in trying to deal with the problem. Ignoring some or all of them could result in him being back to square one, or worse, at some point in the future. So in my view it would be just silly to simply ignore all of the advice given so far. He obviously doesn't have to accept all, or indeed any, of the advice but it makes sense to read it, consider it, and then decide whether to follow it or not.

Going to a medical professional is a good idea, but if issues around how his bike fits him or how he rides it are at the root of the problem than any good that a medical professional does will likely be for nothing if those other issues are not addressed too.

Brian?

doozerie wrote: »

Suggesting that the OP ignore all of the advice would be sensible if the advice had been that he not seek professional medical help or something equally unhelpful or possibly damaging. But that wasn't the nature of the advice at all. The advice given all focused on things that he could do himself to potentially alleviate the symptoms, or to avoid a future recurrence, via the likes of warm ups, stretching, means of putting less stress directly on the knees while cycling, etc. That advice is not mutually exclusive to obtaining professional medical help, quite the contrary in fact.

The circumstances that led to his injury could have arisen for a multitude of reasons, from an underlying medical issue to something to do with how he rides his bike. It makes sense to look at as many of these possible causes as he can in trying to deal with the problem. Ignoring some or all of them could result in him being back to square one, or worse, at some point in the future. So in my view it would be just silly to simply ignore all of the advice given so far. He obviously doesn't have to accept all, or indeed any, of the advice but it makes sense to read it, consider it, and then decide whether to follow it or not.

Going to a medical professional is a good idea, but if issues around how his bike fits him or how he rides it are at the root of the problem than any good that a medical professional does will likely be for nothing if those other issues are not addressed too.

You, me or anyone else on the forum have no idea what might help him right now. He needs to see someone who can.

Bike fit, warm ups etc. can come after that.

Self diagnosis aided with advice from the Internet is a terrible idea.

doozerie

Brian? wrote: »

You, me or anyone else on the forum have no idea what might help him right now. He needs to see someone who can.

Bike fit, warm ups etc. can come after that.

Why not explore both at the same time? None of the advice given is controversial or potentially detrimental to the OP, it's all standard and simple stuff some or all of which would often form part of a program to treat an injury, and a lot of which is widely considered to be generally healthy practice even where there is no injury to treat. Personally, I see no dubious advice in this thread at all, I do see advice which gives the OP something to consider and to my mind that is a good thing.

Ryder

Brian? wrote: »

You, me or anyone else on the forum have no idea what might help him right now. He needs to see someone who can.

Bike fit, warm ups etc. can come after that.

Self diagnosis aided with advice from the Internet is a terrible idea.

youre right......but a lot/most people dont have access to a cycling specific physio. In my experience, physios will know all about patellar tendonitis/ITB. but thats it. I think you need to know about bike fit aswell as for a lot of problems you cant sort out pain without looking at both components...unlike running etc. So, yeah medical advice is essential, but so also is the expierence of others who have been through the same thing. You just need a bit of cop on to take on board whats sensible and right for you

Ryaner

Brian? wrote: »

You, me or anyone else on the forum have no idea what might help him right now. He needs to see someone who can.

Bike fit, warm ups etc. can come after that.

Self diagnosis aided with advice from the Internet is a terrible idea.

As others have pointed out, physios are usually quite clueless when it comes to cycling and the repetitive nature. Point it proof is just how much damage a cleat being out of line can do from all the repeated movements. Without fixing the cause, you'll be back at square one.

That said, a bikefit is not a replacement for seeing a physio. They can usually tell if something is damaged or if it needs to be looked at further. Lots of things can heal by themselves, others can't.

Konkers

I went to see this fella re a bike fit.

http://www.bikefittingireland.com/contact_5.html

His wife interviewed me beforehand. She is a physio and triathlete.

Might be worth a try.

Not affiliated with them.

sy

Konkers wrote: »

I went to see this fella re a bike fit.

http://www.bikefittingireland.com/contact_5.html

His wife interviewed me beforehand. She is a physio and triathlete.

Might be worth a try.

Not affiliated with them.

Can highly recommend this guy

Woody_FX

Is it true to say that having your saddle too far forward puts extra strain through your knees?

shaka

OFP in limerick are physios/trainers/gym who cycle, went to their cycling seminar on strengt training for cycling a few months back which was fairly good.

The Big Lebowsky

Woody_FX wrote: »

Is it true to say that having your saddle too far forward puts extra strain through your knees?

Placing your saddle further forward will only put extra strain through your knees, if you happen to have long femurs...Some smaller riders might have the nose of their saddle 1cm behind the bottom bracket, while a rider who is much taller could be sitting 12cm behind the bottom bracket.

doozerie

I think the first challenge is in determining what constitutes a saddle being "too far forward". An old rule of thumb (where "old" means it has been knocking around for a long time, as opposed to being a view which is no longer accepted) was that your knee should be no further forward than the pedal axle (measured by dropping a plumb line down from the knee) when the crank is forward and parallel with the ground. However there are some well reasoned (in my view) arguments to say that this is not a meaningful measure at all for many riders, but at best a measure which worked for some riders and was then widely adopted purely because it was mistakenly assumed to be equally relevant to everyone and it was convenient. If you accept that counter view then "too far forward" becomes trickier to determine though a decent bike fitter should be able to offer good advice.