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Olympic Marathoner turns to Ultras
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11-02-2013 2:32am#1
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No only that a marathon time is probably a better predictor when comparing to a 50K is all.
No arguments from me on that one. But you can see where using marathon times as predictors for 100km performace falls foul of the same logic I'm sure.
That's the problem here, we just need to convince a bunch of Kenyans and Ethiopians to race a 100km. Anyone know of a Saudi prince with an interest in ultras who might finance a race sufficiently to make this happen?
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About 7-8 years ago I went and watched a bit of the Celtic plate that was being held in the Phoenix park at the time. There was an English lad miles out in the lead, he was a sub 2.15 runner and his coach was a pain in the arse saying how he was going to smash the world record etc.
I think at one stage he was about 20 minutes ahead. Well he absolutely hit the wall around 70-80k. Had to be carried back to the first aid area and that was the end of his race. I remember doing the maths at the time (can't recall specifics off the top of my head) but the time he was running in the 100k was significantly slower than his normal marathon pace and I was actually amazed to see how badly he blew up.
So what's the moral of my little story? Nothing really, just that they are very different events and in the sample of 1 that I observed it was great to see a cocky English twat coach eat humble pie
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jeffontour wrote: »Is what you're trying to say here is you don't think you can accurately predict a 50km time from a half marathon time? If it is then most of the debate here is flawed as it’s based on saying world class marathoner with 2:05 time will blitz a 100km race.
That's exactly the flaw that these arguments have. Different events, different distances. Using a quote from Bazman to Diminish Ultrapercy's 50km ability is spectacularly illogical, given that fact that ultrapercy defeated Bazman at the Irish 50km championship last year (It's going to be a cracker of a race this year between these 2, amongst others)jeffontour wrote: »However if he smashes the record or comes close, great. That may encourage more Olympic marathoners to the ultra scene. And that is only good for the sport as it may bring times down. I think we're starting to get a groundswell of talent in the ultra scene here in the past few years, which is forcing everyone to work harder. A few years back in the trail ultra scene I think Enduro was rarely pushed in an Irish event. I'd suggest this is not so any more. But Enduro has responded by pushing on, so over all the Irish ultra running scene is winning.
Yes indeed, the standard of ultra trail has pushed up considerable in the last few years. The numbers taking part across the board has increased enormously (orders of magnitude) as well. We've gone from the situation where there was only one ultra race in Ireland (The Wicklow Ultra), to a case where there are multiple races accross a range of distances (and covering road, trail, and (in the case of 24 hours) track). Standards ramped up across the board in the same timeframe (I actually don't think the 2 factors are necessarily connected, but both are likely to help the other).
On the case of marathoners switching up to Ultra. Well that's where pretty much every Irish ultrarunner has come from. A few still race and win the occasional marathon in Ireland. AAI's HP director's discouraging of the Marathon squad by their ridiculous behavior with qualifying standards might hopefully encourage a few more over.
I'd be very confident that Bazman would make a world class 100km runner (and that's not just based on his marathoning ability. It's also hugely based on his endurance atributes). I'd love to seem him make the switch and show us what he can do at the world 100km. He's got nothing to loose and everything to gain.About 7-8 years ago I went and watched a bit of the Celtic plate that was being held in the Phoenix park at the time. There was an English lad miles out in the lead, he was a sub 2.15 runner and his coach was a pain in the arse saying how he was going to smash the world record etc.
I think at one stage he was about 20 minutes ahead. Well he absolutely hit the wall around 70-80k. Had to be carried back to the first aid area and that was the end of his race. I remember doing the maths at the time (can't recall specifics off the top of my head) but the time he was running in the 100k was significantly slower than his normal marathon pace and I was actually amazed to see how badly he blew up.
So what's the moral of my little story? Nothing really, just that they are very different events and in the sample of 1 that I observed it was great to see a cocky English twat coach eat humble pie I remember that well. Boy that was one spectacular blow-up! I could have laughed harder if I didn't have my own blow-up at 90km as I was trying to get the Irish record :rolleyes:. I managed to resurect myself enough to finish it out in a (then) PB though.
For the lads who think that Kenyan's are invincible flawless gods who couldn't possibly be beaten by a mere European, and think that the only reason they don't win ultras is because they don't enter, try educating yerselves with some knowledge a little. Here's the coverage of the last commonwealth Mountain and ultrarunning championships. Take special note of the 50km race, which starts at around 33 minutes or so.
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That's exactly the flaw that these arguments have. Different events, different distances. Using a quote from Bazman to Diminish Ultrapercy's 50km ability is spectacularly illogical, given that fact that ultrapercy defeated Bazman at the Irish 50km championship last year (It's going to be a cracker of a race this year between these 2, amongst others)
Apologies if I'm in any way viewed as having diminished the achievements of another - that wasn't my intention. It's always difficult to compare performances over different distances - makes for good debates I certainly respect Ultrapercy's ability in ultra events and it was a quality result last year. One has to be careful on public forum. I merely said that not all championships are equal and I stand by this statement. An Olympic standard event will always make a distance more competitive. Let's make it simple: it is possible for an Irish person to medal in the world 50k trophy? Of course. Is it possible for an Irish person to medal in the world marathon championship? Not at the moment. Anyone who thinks all championships are comparable is delusional.
The marathon and 50k are essentially equal events. Like myself last year and this year you will always have marathoners dipping into 50k events - sometimes as it's part of marathon training, sometimes as an experiment. I did 50k last year to kick-start my training and thankfully it worked - I had only one week of decent training before the event and from the photos it's clear I wasn't in shape. How many quality marathoners have truly targeted a 50k? Very few I'd say and if they did most would perform as per MacMillian running calculator.
However, true ultra events (100k+) are completely different events. The marathon would be an indicator of potential, but so many other factors come into play and so a good marathoner would not necessarily make a good ultra runner. For example, mental and leg strength become more important than leg speed.
Debates are always good, but I for one will be careful with what I say in future 0 -
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The Wee runner wrote: »Hi, am really looking to the national 50km on Sat. It will be really interesting to see Bazman's time as he clocked 3.10 last year with only one week of decent training. Ill def be lapped !!!!
I won't be running for a time on Saturday - it's a fun day out. That sounds stange I know, but I'm running inter-clubs a week later so won't be empting the tank. I've 6 weeks training this year Still, the 1 week comment is a little inaccurate when you consider the 6 years of mileage ... 0 -
I won't be running for a time on Saturday - it's a fun day out. That sounds stange I know, but I'm running inter-clubs a week later so won't be empting the tank. I've 6 weeks training this year Still, the 1 week comment is a little inaccurate when you consider the 6 years of mileage ...
Are you getting too used to them Duathlons, Bazman? There's no hoping on a bike in the middle of this race!
If you're not going flat out I've no problems if you want to hang back and pace me around the course for 10 laps.0 -
Are you getting too used to them Duathlons, Bazman? There's no hoping on a bike in the middle of this race!
If you're not going flat out I've no problems if you want to hang back and pace me around the course for 10 laps.
Hill races, duathlons and ultras - all a bit of fun. I really enjoy the social aspect of these races and the lack of pressure. Times don't really matter, but like any race I'll still fight for placing as I'm a little competitive at heart
I'd love to be competitive at duathlons/triathlons, but just cannot commit the time required to get up to speed on the bike & swim - based on recent duathlon I'm a long way off Maybe someday, but not today ... 0 -
Apologies if I'm in any way viewed as having diminished the achievements of another - that wasn't my intention. It's always difficult to compare performances over different distances - makes for good debates I certainly respect Ultrapercy's ability in ultra events and it was a quality result last year. One has to be careful on public forum. I merely said that not all championships are equal and I stand by this statement. An Olympic standard event will always make a distance more competitive. Let's make it simple: it is possible for an Irish person to medal in the world 50k trophy? Of course. Is it possible for an Irish person to medal in the world marathon championship? Not at the moment. Anyone who thinks all championships are comparable is delusional.
The marathon and 50k are essentially equal events. Like myself last year and this year you will always have marathoners dipping into 50k events - sometimes as it's part of marathon training, sometimes as an experiment. I did 50k last year to kick-start my training and thankfully it worked - I had only one week of decent training before the event and from the photos it's clear I wasn't in shape. How many quality marathoners have truly targeted a 50k? Very few I'd say and if they did most would perform as per MacMillian running calculator.
However, true ultra events (100k+) are completely different events. The marathon would be an indicator of potential, but so many other factors come into play and so a good marathoner would not necessarily make a good ultra runner. For example, mental and leg strength become more important than leg speed.
Debates are always good, but I for one will be careful with what I say in future
Sorry if that came across as something aimed at you, as that wasn't my intention either. It was the context of the quoting of your post I was trying to get at. I agree that the standard of a Marathon world champs would be higher than the standard of the 50km world challenge. No arguments there. Every event will have differing standards from every other based on all sorts of factors. I don't think that just because its possible for an Irish person to medal at a particular distance in a world championship that one can automatically asume that it is of a low standard. That would imply that standards were, by definition, low in Sonia's events when she was medalling. Just because the Kenyans weren't winning her events doesn't necessarily reflect anything of the standards. Same with Ultras. Even looking at olympic events the standards would seem to me to be fairly widely all over the place. Is the steeplechase at the same competitive standard as the 100 meters (or marathon), just because they both happen to be olympic events?
I also agree that 50km and marathon are almost the same event. I can't think of any other pair of standard distance straight running events that are as close to each other in percentage terms. Speaking for myself, I don't really think of 50km road/track races as being ultras, more just elongated marathons.
And also agreed that 100km actually is different, but akin to the way say 10km and marathon are different, but still close enough that it would be the natural progression. In my opinion it's the next standard distance event that a fast marathoner should try, to see if they are more naturally suited to the longer distances. It's still a "speed" event in ultra terms. In my experience/opinion it's still in the realm of events where a marathon style approach to training and racing is the way to go (as opposed to the longer stuff like 24hours which are very different, again IMHO).
As I say, I'm really looking forward to seeing you racing the 50km this weekend. If it becomes a race, I hope you don't hold back too much!! And I really would love to see you give 100km a serious go whilst your at your speed-over-distance peak! It'd be great to see you take on the challenge of really getting stuck into the best in the world! I could be wrong, but I genuinely think its more likely to be your natural distance than the marathon. (And you absolutely have all the attributes you listed as being required of a good 100km runner, as well marathon speed far in excess of any previous Irish 100km runner)0 -
Sorry if that came across as something aimed at you, as that wasn't my intention either.
And I really would love to see you give 100km a serious go whilst your at your speed-over-distance peak! It'd be great to see you take on the challenge of really getting stuck into the best in the world! I could be wrong, but I genuinely think its more likely to be your natural distance than the marathon. (And you absolutely have all the attributes you listed as being required of a good 100km runner, as well marathon speed far in excess of any previous Irish 100km runner)
I understand where you were coming from with quote, so no worries there.
Focus for 2013-14 is purely on getting to a major marathon championships - Moscow this year or more likely Zurich next year. After that I'll look for new challenge - either to be competitive at Masters level over shorter distances or if time allows go mad with 100k/ironman type races. I will run a 100k race someday, but doubt I'll ever do a 24hr+ (although the Tour du Mont-Blanc is luring ) 0 -
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thirstywork2 wrote: »Bazman 3.05 today and abig big future when he dicides to give Ultra running his focus;)
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but experience from Marty Dent clearly illustrates the difference between 50k & 100k racing. Probably the big mistake from marathoners over the ultra is going out too hard - very achieveable to be just outside WR pace at 20k or even 50k, but that's only half the battle Even in the 50k I was happy out cruising at 30k, but over last few laps had to slow down to ensure I finished in one piece. I never forced the pace, but don't think one can over an ultra or it will end in tears 
On finishing Saturday I was very cold for about 30mins after race until I got food into me. I had only taken one gel and 200ml of water during race, so was obviously lacking nurishment. Fueling would be key aspect of 100k+ racing - something one would have to practice.0 -
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