Home Farm FC documentary – Monday, 9.45pm on Setanta Ireland (Freeview)

superfrank

Spotted this on Twitter this evening! Looks pretty good from the trailer below.

Luckily enough it's on freeview so the likes of myself can catch it :D

Fans of Irish football are in for a treat with Setanta Ireland set to broadcast Premier Ambitions, a new 6 part documentary following the Home Farm U15 team as they strive to win the league as a team and as individuals they hope for trials with Premier League club.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYJOeGscsSw

Darkglasses

Nice, looking forward to it!

Mars Bar

Do Home Farm still hold the record for the longest run of victories?

dan1895

Looks good alright. I wonder what angle they are going come at this from? Getting to England being the be all and end all or should the players be waiting until they're older?

RayCon

Looks good ... thanks for the info ... hadn't heard about it.

Yakult

Worth a watch I'd say!

superfrank

Never heard of him to be honest?

‏@SetantaSports
New series #PremierAmbitions features Goalkeeper James Talbot, who subsequently wins @FAIreland U-15 POTY & goes on to play with Everton FC!

Mars Bar

The managers "style" is getting a good lambasting on Twitter. Apparently he is a "how not to coach" example to everyone.

Haven't seen it myself coz I don't have Setanta.

Captain Havoc

Mars Bar wrote: »

The managers "style" is getting a good lambasting on Twitter. Apparently he is a "how not to coach" example to everyone.

Haven't seen it myself coz I don't have Setanta.

If eircom is your internet provider you can watch it via eircom.net, you can also watch Setanta live.

dreamers75

Jaysis dunno if Setanta meant it to a "whats wrong with our coaches " type show or not.

But fcuking hell.

Mars Bar

Captain Havoc wrote: »

If eircom is your internet provider you can watch it via eircom.net, you can also watch Setanta live.

I can't even begin to explain the issues we have with Eircom but I can't get access to the website despite being an Eircom customer. A thread for another day.

Mars Bar

dreamers75 wrote: »

Jaysis dunno if Setanta meant it to a "whats wrong with our coaches " type show or not.

But fcuking hell.

Did ya watch it? What did ya think?

Mikeyt086

Don't suppose anyone capped it and are uploading it so those of us without Setanta can watch?

No?

Ah well, worth a shot.

dreamers75

Cant find the other thread (can a mod merge if they find it)

Anyone watching this?

Anyone ever intend on letting their kid go to Home Farm. They must be watching this and thinking no way those lads can be allowed manage kids.

Still not sure of Setantas angle on this, seems they showing it for what it is.

Mars Bar

I follow a lot of Irish coaches on Twitter and not one of them has had anything positive to say about it.

dreamers75

Mars Bar wrote: »

I follow a lot of Irish coaches on Twitter and not one of them has had anything positive to say about it.

Its shocking that they are showing it like that, expected a vetted tv show. Fair play for Setanta for showing how our kids are treated before bundled on the plane.

Johnny Utah

Mars Bar wrote: »

The managers "style" is getting a good lambasting on Twitter. Apparently he is a "how not to coach" example to everyone.

Haven't seen it myself coz I don't have Setanta.

It's no wonder that we don't produce enough good young footballers. It's almost as if they are playing a completely different sport on the Continent than the hoofball that is pushed in the UK & Ireland.


Also, huge focus on results rather than skill & performance. One of the mothers was really embarrassing too; she kicked up a stink when little Johnny was put on the bench- threatened to have her superstar son leave the club. :rolleyes:

This is what passes as the pinnacle of Irish schoolboy football!
Depressing really.

Kingdom

The clue is in the name people "home Farm". If only they were called Hoover Farm it would be that bit more appropriate.

markie29

Johnny Utah wrote: »

It's no wonder that we don't produce enough good young footballers. It's almost as if they are playing a completely different sport on the Continent than the hoofball that is pushed in the UK & Ireland.


Also, huge focus on results rather than skill & performance. One of the mothers was really embarrassing too; she kicked up a stink when little Johnny was put on the bench- threatened to have her superstar son leave the club. :rolleyes:

This is what passes as the pinnacle of Irish schoolboy football!
Depressing really.

its the same where i live...more interested in results plus at under12 level they play in full size goals.
my little cousin comes home demoralised after conceding 5 goals and more.

i havent seen the tv show tonight but will keep an eye out for it.

The_Kew_Tour

I got to watch it at weekend.

What a depressing program. Everything that is wrong with Football coaching and how young lads are treated was in this video.

Truly awful stuff. No wonder Irish football is producing feck all talent.

Mars Bar

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I got to watch it at weekend.

What a depressing program. Everything that is wrong with Football coaching and how young lads are treated was in this video.

Truly awful stuff. No wonder Irish football is producing feck all talent.

I'd love to know did the coach do it coz he thinks he's the bees knees? I wonder what he thinks of the feedback.

The positive of the show is that it has highlighted the negatives and goes to show what's going on in the majority of the underage set up.

The_Kew_Tour

Mars Bar wrote: »

I'd love to know did the coach do it coz he thinks he's the bees knees? I wonder what he thinks of the feedback.

The positive of the show is that it has highlighted the negatives and goes to show what's going on in the majority of the underage set up.

You're spot on with your second point.

I'm not sure what he will make of feedback, he came across as a my way or no way type of person.

The father at the end who pulled his young lad out of the club cause his poor Johnny was getting a little advice is the type of parents doing their sons no good either.

The problem with underage football is its all win at all costs mentality. No sign of fun and learning the technicial side of the game.

We don't have resources to compete with your Spain's but there is talent in this country but it's not been produced in the manner it should for about 50 reasons.

We could set up a very decent structure for our players in years to come if clubs sat down and could discuss it in civil manner, but like any organisation in this country they are too stubborn.

dreamers75

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

We could set up a very decent structure for our players in years to come if clubs sat down and could discuss it in civil manner, but like any organisation in this country they are too stubbornmaking too much money as things are.

^^

ozymandias10

it should be about player development. The coaching structure should be designed this way and not result orientated. There should be blitzes instead of full leagues up until the age of 15. the way the rugby operate the Mini coaching set up is one the FAI should look at.

LuckyLloyd

The underlying objective at that level is to produce professional players. The DDSL does that quite successfully, and the specific year covered in this documentary has already produced a few players who have secured contracts in the UK even if the outfield players on Home Farm won't get such an opportunity. In that sense, the system works. The competitive aspect has the effect of forcing the most talented players in any given year towards the DDSL by 13 or 14, and the best squads have the ability to hold their own against Academy sides on trips abroad which helps to secure trial opportunities.

The incentive for kids and their parents is to try and play pro ball. For this particular Home Farm side, anyone ending up there at the stage this documentary was shot was probably odds against to achieve that as Kevins and Cherry Orchard had the bulk of the best prospects snapped up.

People need to bear in mind what the real incentive of kids, their parents and the clubs are when suggesting changes or improvements to the league structure. In the absence of a national academy, talk of abandoning full competitive leagues or playing 7 a side or a sole focus on player development is pure folly. The alternative has to provide a superior route to a pro contract.

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The underlying objective at that level is to produce professional players. The DDSL does that quite successfully, and the specific year covered in this documentary has already produced a few players who have secured contracts in the UK even if the outfield players on Home Farm won't get such an opportunity. In that sense, the system works. The competitive aspect has the effect of forcing the most talented players in any given year towards the DDSL by 13 or 14, and the best squads have the ability to hold their own against Academy sides on trips abroad which helps to secure trial opportunities.

The incentive for kids and their parents is to try and play pro ball. For this particular Home Farm side, anyone ending up there at the stage this documentary was shot was probably odds against to achieve that as Kevins and Cherry Orchard had the bulk of the best prospects snapped up.

People need to bear in mind what the real incentive of kids, their parents and the clubs are when suggesting changes or improvements to the league structure. In the absence of a national academy, talk of abandoning full competitive leagues or playing 7 a side or a sole focus on player development is pure folly. The alternative has to provide a superior route to a pro contract.

If the structure produced better players, which it would do if they changed to a development model more like the Spanish, then they would naturally produce more professional players.

Edit: I read somewhere (probably on the Horst Wein site but I can't remember for sure) that the English FA have made changes to emphasize small sided games more recently in their youth development. God knows they've proven enough that the other model of YD produces shìte.

And I've heard the SDFL over here have some small sided blitz sep ups going for the younger players that a few clubs are taking part in. That's a start.

LuckyLloyd

Pro. F wrote: »

If the structure produced better players, which it would do if they changed to a development model more like the Spanish, then they would naturally produce more professional players.

Edit: I read somewhere (probably on the Horst Wein site but I can't remember for sure) that the English FA have made changes to emphasize small sided games more recently in their youth development. God knows they've proven enough that the other model of YD produces shìte.

And I've heard the SDFL over here have some small sided blitz sep ups going for the younger players that a few clubs are taking part in. That's a start.

I'm not disagreeing with the obvious principle that a superior and more technical based structure would eventually produce a higher calibre of player. But in the absence of proper resources to support the structure (ultimately a national acadamy) you will be left with some version of the DDSL.

From what I've heard, the English clubs have gone too far the other way with their acadamies. It's all short passing and slow buildup stuff and they are potentially missing out on players or limiting their options by refusing to entertain athletic / direct options.

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with the obvious principle that a superior and more technical based structure would eventually produce a higher calibre of player. But in the absence of proper resources to support the structure (ultimately a national acadamy) you will be left with some version of the DDSL.

I really don't think you need to spend a lot of money, or even have a national academy, to introduce the Horst Wein model. It's such a simple idea. Pretty much all the coaches have to do is break the kids up into smaller groups in training and then let them play away.

Instead of going to an away ground every second week you just go to a blitz once a month. Maybe it could be argued you need more space for the blitzes, but with a little bit of organisation the host club could have their older, full sided teams, all playing away that day.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

From what I've heard, the English clubs have gone too far the other way with their acadamies. It's all short passing and slow buildup stuff and they are potentially missing out on players or limiting their options by refusing to entertain athletic / direct options.

Interesting. There's certainly no guarantee that the English will do it right.

LuckyLloyd

Pro. F wrote: »

I really don't think you need to spend a lot of money, or even have a national academy, to introduce the Horst Wein model. It's such a simple idea. Pretty much all the coaches have to do is break the kids up into smaller groups in training and then let them play away.

Instead of going to an away ground every second week you just go to a blitz once a month. Maybe it could be argued you need more space for the blitzes, but with a little bit of organisation the host club could have their older, full sided teams, all playing away that day.

Having small sides games isn't the catch all answer. Elite youth clubs will still hoover up talent to win the most small sided games / blitzes possible and to get a bit of money when a 15 / 16 year old kid heads over to the UK.

You need something to fully replace the competitive club structure and have a sole 'player development' focus.

ozymandias10

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The underlying objective at that level is to produce professional players. The DDSL does that quite successfully, and the specific year covered in this documentary has already produced a few players who have secured contracts in the UK even if the outfield players on Home Farm won't get such an opportunity. In that sense, the system works. The competitive aspect has the effect of forcing the most talented players in any given year towards the DDSL by 13 or 14, and the best squads have the ability to hold their own against Academy sides on trips abroad which helps to secure trial opportunities.

The incentive for kids and their parents is to try and play pro ball. For this particular Home Farm side, anyone ending up there at the stage this documentary was shot was probably odds against to achieve that as Kevins and Cherry Orchard had the bulk of the best prospects snapped up.

People need to bear in mind what the real incentive of kids, their parents and the clubs are when suggesting changes or improvements to the league structure. In the absence of a national academy, talk of abandoning full competitive leagues or playing 7 a side or a sole focus on player development is pure folly. The alternative has to provide a superior route to a pro contract.

The dutch model is player development based as well. You are looking solely at players making it in England. Player development will also enhance the league and leagues here...More playing the game..the cream will rise to the top....Proper coaching and development will see less lost to the game...will increase scholarships etc in the states...it should not be about pro football..that is folly

LuckyLloyd

ozymandias10 wrote: »

The dutch model is player development based as well. You are looking solely at players making it in England. Player development will also enhance the league and leagues here...More playing the game..the cream will rise to the top....Proper coaching and development will see less lost to the game...will increase scholarships etc in the states...it should not be about pro football..that is folly

I'm not disagreeing with the theory of what you're saying. The theory is great, implementing it in reality is the hard part and the bit that no-one ever addresses. Small sided games won't solve the problem. Talking about 'player development' in abstract won't solve the problem.

ozymandias10

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with the theory of what you're saying. The theory is great, implementing it in reality is the hard part and the bit that no-one ever addresses. Small sided games won't solve the problem. Talking about 'player development' in abstract won't solve the problem.

The theory is being implemented by rugby that set out clear structures for underage /mini rugby.. All play to theses structures and the coaching is monitored through the provinces and coaching courses offered. It builds players to play a full pitch by age 13 but has developed them with the neccessary skills ...the fruition of this for Rugby is that more will play the game in their twenties ( player retention). This needs to be done by soccer or the game will be left behind . the Home Farm documentary is practically cut-throat in the way kids are cast aside and the transfer window used (at u15). Players won't fully develop in this environment. I agree that academies may also need to be looked at. I don't think our opinions are a million miles apart here

LuckyLloyd

ozymandias10 wrote: »

The theory is being implemented by rugby that set out clear structures for underage /mini rugby.. All play to theses structures and the coaching is monitored through the provinces and coaching courses offered. It builds players to play a full pitch by age 13 but has developed them with the neccessary skills ...the fruition of this for Rugby is that more will play the game in their twenties ( player retention). This needs to be done by soccer or the game will be left behind . the Home Farm documentary is practically cut-throat in the way kids are cast aside and the transfer window used (at u15). Players won't fully develop in this environment. I agree that academies may also need to be looked at. I don't think our opinions are a million miles apart here

The IRFU leave the FAI in the dust when it comes to the ratio of coaches and development officers. Players will never develop as quickly as in other countries when it's two sessions a week in poor facilities versus the intensive coaching and monitoring of a professional academy set up. That's the bottom line.

But most of all, they get to control things so much more because their provincal academies ARE the end goal for those who want a career.

LuckyLloyd

Also, worth noting that the FAI can't easily dictate the competition structures used by the DDSL at present.

Pro. F

Sorry to take so long to reply to this. The Austria match and then life made me forget about this thread.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Having small sides games isn't the catch all answer. Elite youth clubs will still hoover up talent to win the most small sided games / blitzes possible and to get a bit of money when a 15 / 16 year old kid heads over to the UK.

You need something to fully replace the competitive club structure and have a sole 'player development' focus.

Scores/results aren't recorded for these small sided games or blitzes (well they shouldn't be recorded anyway). So their introduction immediately overcomes the worst issues of the competitive club structure, ie the distraction of competitive games from developing ball skills.

The elite clubs would still try to hoover up all the talent, that is true. But at least that hoovering of talent would be happening in an environment where all the clubs are using the best youth development model, unlike now where all the clubs are using the rubbish methods for developing players.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Also, worth noting that the FAI can't easily dictate the competition structures used by the DDSL at present.

I would have thought that the FAI could add stipulations about youth development methods to all grants and funding. That would change the clubs' methods pretty quickly. Even more basic than that, I would have thought that the FAI has some sort of licensing powers over all clubs.

Kerrydude1981

Missed this first time around guys,any idea when it will repeated? Or can the episodes be seen online?

LuckyLloyd

Pro. F wrote: »

I would have thought that the FAI could add stipulations about youth development methods to all grants and funding. That would change the clubs' methods pretty quickly. Even more basic than that, I would have thought that the FAI has some sort of licensing powers over all clubs.

Don't there's much in the way of grants and funding provided to schoolboy clubs from the FAI. As for the licensing, I believe that the FAI don't / won't dictate to individual leagues like the DDSL.

Open to correction on either point.

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Don't there's much in the way of grants and funding provided to schoolboy clubs from the FAI. As for the licensing, I believe that the FAI don't / won't dictate to individual leagues like the DDSL.

Open to correction on either point.

Afaik the grants are pretty thin on the ground all right. And thinking about it a bit more I guess they wouldn't be a good way of directing what clubs do each year, as the grants happen so infrequently.

As for the second point it would seem to me the FAI could, if they wanted, dictate to the clubs and leagues how things are to be done. But they seem to choose not to.

Like yourself, I'm open to correction on all this.

bohsman

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Also, worth noting that the FAI can't easily dictate the competition structures used by the DDSL at present.

Does anybody know anything about what's going on with the NDSL? Bohs and other clubs have moved all their schoolboy teams there and seem confident it's a vital move for the club. Callaghan is very much in favour of the smaller pitches, winning not important model and it appears changes have been made in the NDSL in that direction.

CSF

bohsman wrote: »

Does anybody know anything about what's going on with the NDSL? Bohs and other clubs have moved all their schoolboy teams there and seem confident it's a vital move for the club. Callaghan is very much in favour of the smaller pitches, winning not important model and it appears changes have been made in the NDSL in that direction.

Great in theory, but in reality what's going to happen is that the DDSL clubs will take your good players now. Impossible to revamp football here until it happens from the top down.

bohsman

CSF wrote: »

Great in theory, but in reality what's going to happen is that the DDSL clubs will take your good players now. Impossible to revamp football here until it happens from the top down.

I guess we haven't really had top class underage players anyway, we need to rely on showing parents that there is a route through to 1st team football there. Over the last few years most of our talent seems to have been taken from Belvedere.

Pro. F

Maybe this deserved its own thread but the conversation was already going here so...

Great news, the DDSL has moved towards the small sided development philosophy this season.

This season under 8s and 9s has changed to 5-a-side, no scores or league rankings kept, small pitches and goals (6'x4'' I think). Under 10s are still 7-a-side competitive but I think they are moving to the non-competitive structure next year, not sure if they are reducing team/pitch sizes next year. And under 12s have changed from full size games to smaller goals and 9-a-side this season. I don't know how far they plan to go with reducing pitch and team sizes in the following seasons, but it's a huge step forward already.

From what I've heard it was the clubs that pushed for the changes. Respect to them for that.

From looking at the SDFL website it seems they are now 3-a-side for under 7s and 8s; 5-a-side for under 9s and then I'm not sure after that. From looking at his articles their director of coaching seems to be a bit of an evangelist for the small sided game any way, so that's a good sign.

Hopefully the leagues keep on pushing forward with this strategy and it works out for everybody.

CSF

Pro. F wrote: »

Maybe this deserved its own thread but the conversation was already going here so...

Great news, the DDSL has moved towards the small sided development philosophy this season.

This season under 8s and 9s has changed to 5-a-side, no scores or league rankings kept, small pitches and goals (6'x4'' I think). Under 10s are still 7-a-side competitive but I think they are moving to the non-competitive structure next year, not sure if they are reducing team/pitch sizes next year. And under 12s have changed from full size games to smaller goals and 9-a-side this season. I don't know how far they plan to go with reducing pitch and team sizes in the following seasons, but it's a huge step forward already.

From what I've heard it was the clubs that pushed for the changes. Respect to them for that.

From looking at the SDFL website it seems they are now 3-a-side for under 7s and 8s; 5-a-side for under 9s and then I'm not sure after that. From looking at his articles their director of coaching seems to be a bit of an evangelist for the small sided game any way, so that's a good sign.

Hopefully the leagues keep on pushing forward with this strategy and it works out for everybody.

I think you are right, it does deserve its own thread.