How can a government supporter watch this video and then justify what FG have done...

samsemtex

Just watched this video of Noonan speaking shortly before the general election in 2011 and how anyone can say the government is in anyway sticking to its mandate after watching this is beyond me.

I have never in all my life seen a video as utterly condemning of a political party than this. He has literally done every single action he condemns in this video?

Its like he is talking to himself just last week. How can anyone stand over that? To lead people to vote for you by saying things like that and then behaving like they have in the last two years is shameful. Just as shameful though is the irish peoples passive reaction to it all.

jased10s

As soon as i can leave this beautiful sad island without debt i will.

You are a sorry island , and have sold your children out.

Not a red cent they said.

meglome

Leaving aside that Political Party A will disagree for the sake of it with Political Party B. When FF bailed out and guaranteed the banks including Anglo we all got lumbered with it, back in 2008. Even to this day people keep saying that somehow we can magic that debt away when we can't, we owe it. People also forget that we voted FF in three times in a row to create that mess, and now they top the latest opinion poll. I wouldn't be looking at Noonan I'd be looking at your fellow citizens lack of judgement.

NIMAN

How soon people forget who the real culprits were, eh?

FF are doing a great job of convincing the Irish people that its all FG/Labours fault, and many are just stupid enough to believe them. If there was any justice, FF would not see any power in this country for the next few decades, but we are a dumb people!

Manach

Given the unchanging nature of the civil service who along with the EU directives that have driven the legislative nature of change in this country for decades, there is no accountability for the former which continues the spider in the web pulling the strings no matter which party is in "power".

atilladehun

I'll never forget FF got us into this mess.

The issue of any party not fulfilling its mandate is a completely different Orwellian issue. In a sense we can't blame Noonan, FG, the players or even FF for that. It's the game. Finding a situation where all parties are fully aware of all the issues of government. Then they debate, discuss and decide on them in a healthy way to create realistic mandates that then can account for at the end of a term is probably the unattainable dream of democracy. It is however something we should strive towards baby step by baby step.

An independent democratic review group is probably necessary and then a complete radical overhaul of government would be needed.

You can probably go to every successful politician before an election and find plenty of material on them like that.

The Waltzing Consumer

samsemtex wrote: »

Just watched this video of Noonan speaking shortly before the general election in 2011 and how anyone can say the government is in anyway sticking to its mandate after watching this is beyond me.

I have never in all my life seen a video as utterly condemning of a political party than this. He has literally done every single action he condemns in this video?

Its like he is talking to himself just last week. How can anyone stand over that? To lead people to vote for you by saying things like that and then behaving like they have in the last two years is shameful. Just as shameful though is the irish peoples passive reaction to it all.

Samsemtex, what mandate did the Government get? Was it a single party mandate? Or was it a mandate for a coalition, a mixture of ideas, policies and compromise. If you don't like that, well thats what happens in coalitions

hatrickpatrick

Simple. We don't live in a democracy. And there are a considerable number of people who are happy about the fact that the government doesn't stick to its mandate, and think that the people should have no power at all.

There are a vast multitude of such people on this board, in fact.

Ardent

Just watched that video and nothing Noonan says there is incorrect or can be used as a stick to beat him with today (which is what the original poster is attempting to do).

- He starts off by saying that Ireland must honour its sovereign debt (which it must)
- He lambasts the bailout as a disgrace (which it was)
- He ends by saying that FG, if elected, will re-negotiate the ECB/IMF deal (which they have done so this week with spectacular success)

If anything, you're proving why the people of this country were absolutely right to elect FG into government!!

Icepick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Simple. We don't live in a democracy. And there are a considerable number of people who are happy about the fact that the government doesn't stick to its mandate, and think that the people should have no power at all.

There are a vast multitude of such people on this board, in fact.

evidence?

PeadarCo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Simple. We don't live in a democracy. And there are a considerable number of people who are happy about the fact that the government doesn't stick to its mandate, and think that the people should have no power at all.

There are a vast multitude of such people on this board, in fact.

So what your saying is that democracy isn't working because by and large most people are ok with what the government is doing.

FG and labour said they would try to renegotiate things and they have done. Can we not enjoy some goods news. At the height of the boom if you said anything bad you were shouted down. Now the reverse is the case.

Kristopherus

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Samsemtex, what mandate did the Government get? Was it a single party mandate? Or was it a mandate for a coalition, a mixture of ideas, policies and compromise. If you don't like that, well thats what happens in coalitions

With a username the OP has its fair to say he is very far left of Labour. And not a snoball's chance in hell of getting into power this side of 2050:D

Medu

jased10s wrote: »

As soon as i can leave this beautiful sad island without debt i will.

You are a sorry island , and have sold your children out.

Not a red cent they said.

If you stopped reading sound bites and actually listen/read what the person said it would help your understanding of the situation.
The same goes for the OP. Noonan is talking about the bailout that the government at the time signed up to- part of the bailout is that we would not default on bank debt that has to be honoured.

Simple. We don't live in a democracy

Stop talking in cliches. We voted for FF knowing what they were doing- if you didn't it's because you didn't take 10 minutes out of your busy life to analysis the situation. We then voted for FG/Labour knowing that they wouldn't really alter government policy that much. Just because you don't like the outcome doesn't make it non-democratic.

Brian Shanahan

meglome wrote: »

Even to this day people keep saying that somehow we can magic that debt away when we can't, we owe it.

We can default on it. Argentina did the same in the early 2000's with their 1992 era debts, and have had strong growth since, and after a short hiatus were able to go back into the markets for loans.

Brazil did the same thing when Lula da Silva was elected president with very similar results.

For further reading here is an article by the Grauniad's Aditya Chakrabortty, talking about the madness of Greece not defaulting back in 2011. And another article by the rofessor in Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE), at the Charles Darwin University, Northern Territory, Australia, Bill Mitchell, which goes into the issue in a hell of a lot of depth (you have been warned.

Fact of the matter is, the consensus which claims that default is the same consensus which created the banking crisis in the first place, and had governments around the world nationalising the resulting pile of unpayable private debt.

Remember, we are up to our eyes in government debts because bankers were able, through deregulation, to take stupid bets on bubble markets and eventually failed, and because when push came to the shove, the German government decided to push the debts incurred by German banks betting on Irish banks after they had collapsed but before they had been placed in receivership (through mass buying of high rate, unsecured junk bonds) onto the Irish people (a situation I accurately analogised {new word, patent pending} to my friend as, "if I had a mortgage and defaulted, and the bank decided to come after you because you give me a lift to work in the mornings.")

hatrickpatrick

PeadarCo wrote: »

So what your saying is that democracy isn't working because by and large most people are ok with what the government is doing.

FG and labour said they would try to renegotiate things and they have done. Can we not enjoy some goods news. At the height of the boom if you said anything bad you were shouted down. Now the reverse is the case.

LOL
I never said most people.

I also am shouting down nobody, I'm simply pointing out that FG's government is just as corrupt as FF's. Let us not forget:
http://www.thejournal.ie/taoiseach-breaches-pay-cap-to-award-former-advisor-e35k-pay-rise-295889-Dec2011/

hatrickpatrick

Medu wrote: »

Stop talking in cliches. We voted for FF knowing what they were doing- if you didn't it's because you didn't take 10 minutes out of your busy life to analysis the situation.

In a proper democracy we would have been able to impeach the government without having to wait for them to call an election - before they decided to bail out the banking system in the first place.
That's not actually what I meant though, I was referring to the fact that only people in parliamentary parties get meaningful speaking rights in the Dail, and that most of the parliamentary parties use a whip system in which we, the people, have absolutely no voice whatsoever.

We then voted for FG/Labour knowing that they wouldn't really alter government policy that much. Just because you don't like the outcome doesn't make it non-democratic.

I voted for FG/Lab in the hopes that this kind of sh!te (http://www.thejournal.ie/taoiseach-breaches-pay-cap-to-award-former-advisor-e35k-pay-rise-295889-Dec2011/) would cease. How silly of me to believe that any political party in this country has an ounce of integrity...

Brian Shanahan

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Samsemtex, what mandate did the Government get? Was it a single party mandate? Or was it a mandate for a coalition, a mixture of ideas, policies and compromise. If you don't like that, well thats what happens in coalitions

Q 1) None actually. The next answer will detail.

Q 2) Both parties sought a single party mandate. Neither had an agreed plan of coalition before the electorate in 2011. Therefore what happened is that two parties which failed to win cobbled together an executive after the election, when the more honest decision would have been to ask President McAleese to dissolve the Dáil and rerun the election (it probably isn't the better choice, just the more honest). You see in most countries a coalition has at least some form going into an election, having an agreed general policy line and electoral strategy, a tactic used by previous FG, Labour coalitions.

Now I'm not saying that the coalition shouldn't have happened, but lets not kid ourselves that it won a popular mandate, it was just the least messy option after the election results. And that is not getting into the issue that neither party have actually followed their pre-election manifestos, what they would have been given mandates on if either won a majority.

Kristopherus wrote: »

With a username the OP has its fair to say he is very far left of Labour. And not a snoball's chance in hell of getting into power this side of 2050

Well, considering that the only way into "power" in a modern "democracy" like Ireland's is a total and utter capitulation to the rich and the multinationals, no sensible person with a plan to sort out the country which has a chance of working will get into power, without betraying their every principle.

P.S. Irish Labor are only slightly to the left of the US republicans economically.

djpbarry

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

We can default on it. Argentina did the same in the early 2000's with their 1992 era debts, and have had strong growth since…

Pretty sure Argentina offered creditors new bonds for the defaulted ones?

djpbarry

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

In a proper democracy we would have been able to impeach the government without having to wait for them to call an election - before they decided to bail out the banking system in the first place.

You think the same people who elected FF three times in a row would call for impeachment?

hatrickpatrick

djpbarry wrote: »

You think the same people who elected FF three times in a row would call for impeachment?

The young people like myself who weren't old enough to vote in '07 (I was 17) might have.

meglome

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

We can default on it. Argentina did the same in the early 2000's with their 1992 era debts, and have had strong growth since, and after a short hiatus were able to go back into the markets for loans.

Sorry but using Argentina as an example is very poor. The country has suffered real austerity and cuts. It's still a bit of a basket case even now. I'm no expert but I'm sure someone here can explain this in detail.

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Remember, we are up to our eyes in government debts because bankers were able, through deregulation, to take stupid bets on bubble markets and eventually failed,...

The people of this country voted repeatedly for high spending, low tax, low regulation pro-cyclical polices. This didn't make any sense, nor did it make any sense in the past when it went wrong... yet we continued to do it. You see the average Norwegian asked about what should be done with all the oil money and they'll say 'invest it for the future'. We on the other hand believed our money should be spent (inefficiently) as fast as possible. With every sector of the electorate being happily bought off. You cannot separate the actions of the government and regulators from the attitudes of the people... sadly.

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

...and because when push came to the shove, the German government decided to push the debts incurred by German banks betting on Irish banks after they had collapsed but before they had been placed in receivership (through mass buying of high rate, unsecured junk bonds) onto the Irish people (a situation I accurately analogised {new word, patent pending} to my friend as, "if I had a mortgage and defaulted, and the bank decided to come after you because you give me a lift to work in the mornings.")

I have seen and heard the claim the Germans dunnit a large number of times. At every turn I have asked people for the figures they are using to come to this conclusion. Our own Scofflaw asked the economist Karl Whelan, who was one of the first to claim it, to prove it. He couldn't and I'm going to strongly suspect you can't. Scofflaw also has figures which would indicate the money came from the money markets in the US and UK.

The Waltzing Consumer

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

LOL
I never said most people.

I also am shouting down nobody, I'm simply pointing out that FG's government is just as corrupt as FF's. Let us not forget:
http://www.thejournal.ie/taoiseach-breaches-pay-cap-to-award-former-advisor-e35k-pay-rise-295889-Dec2011/

Well I don't know if that would be the definition of corrupt but hey, I aint going to argue with you, not happy with how that happened either.

Same as with the expenses used by ULA , the ink cartridge controversy by SF, how WUAG with only one member also claim huge expenses, the Mick Wallace tax affairs and how many on the left supported him, I also don't like Lowry and his not declaring of land in England, and lets not forget Gerry Adams millionaire pals paying for hospital visits in the US. All of these would be just as corrupt and is a sad state of affairs when we take FF, FG & Lab out of the picture.

The Waltzing Consumer

meglome wrote: »

I have seen and heard the claim the Germans dunnit a large number of times. At every turn I have asked people for the figures they are using to come to this conclusion. Our own Scofflaw asked the economist Karl Whelan, who was one of the first to claim it, to prove it. He couldn't and I'm going to strongly suspect you can't. Scofflaw also has figures which would indicate the money came from the money markets in the US and UK.

Pretty much, a lot of anti-German rhetoric and gutter racist comments always emerge regarding German where the reality is, it was primarily the US and the UK where the money came from.

meglome

sean200 wrote: »

Lies Lies lies lies lies lies THAT IS WHAT IS RUNNING THIS COUNTRY

The funny thing is if a politician came around at election time here and told the truth they'd have no chance of getting elected. We don't want the truth. If we change, our politicians will change.

CollardGreens

This has been very educational to read this thread. It is EXACTLY the conversations we are having in the States. Same thing with the politicians and their lies, the banks and their greed, you could just replace the country and peoples names and it would be the same.

This seems to be getting to be a world problem. What do we do? Do we try to fix one country at a time? America is no longer a world power, not like it use to be. China has clobbered us, they own everything here and the government keeps borrowing from them by the tune of "trillions".

Food/gas supplies are getting more and more expensive so there are now more poor people that HAVE to depend on the government, not because they want too but because there are not any jobs unless you work for the government. It's a horrible cycle happening, how do we stop it?

We have tons of oil under our soil that would create jobs, however with the regulations the gov will not let them drill. We have lots of coal in the mountains, but again, the gov charges them so much the miners are now penniless.

This was suppose to be a country "For the People, By the People". We are now run by a tyrant government and over paid bankers.


Will it stop? Can we make it stop? How?

Carra23

CollardGreens wrote: »

This has been very educational to read this thread. It is EXACTLY the conversations we are having in the States. Same thing with the politicians and their lies, the banks and their greed, you could just replace the country and peoples names and it would be the same.

This seems to be getting to be a world problem. What do we do? Do we try to fix one country at a time? America is no longer a world power, not like it use to be. China has clobbered us, they own everything here and the government keeps borrowing from them by the tune of "trillions".

Food/gas supplies are getting more and more expensive so there are now more poor people that HAVE to depend on the government, not because they want too but because there are not any jobs unless you work for the government. It's a horrible cycle happening, how do we stop it?

We have tons of oil under our soil that would create jobs, however with the regulations the gov will not let them drill. We have lots of coal in the mountains, but again, the gov charges them so much the miners are now penniless.

This was suppose to be a country "For the People, By the People". We are now run by a tyrant government and over paid bankers.


Will it stop? Can we make it stop? How?

Ye it is possible but would be very hard. Too many people on the planet of the 'mé féin' variety which is Irish for selfish (not direct translation). The will and desire is there but needs to be unearthed and fully awakened, which would take extreme co-ordination and there lies in the near impossible task.

The Waltzing Consumer

CollardGreens wrote: »

This was suppose to be a country "For the People, By the People". We are now run by a tyrant government and over paid bankers.


Will it stop? Can we make it stop? How?

Wait...ain't you a self-confessed Tea Party member? The "for the people, by the people" party which has strong funding links to the billionaire Koch brothers?

Personally, I don't have much time for any political movement that has had so many ties to racial, homophobic & sectarian comments, oh and lets not forget Sarah Palin...:rolleyes: