M50 ANPR (Thread Split)

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Plenty of people have problems with these new excessive toll charges. We are penalised for not accepting something that is an infringement on our civil liberties and something that many of us don’t want.

We are in effect funding a European wide Police state tool that will eventually be used to monitor people for revenue, traffic offences and suspect terrorism.

Currently this automated "Big Brother" monster is spitting out hate mail with false accusations and scare mongering tactics "to pay up or else" right across the nation to innocent motorists many of whom have never been near the toll bridge.

MYOB wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=576

Please stop this nonsense on here and Motors.

No longer a conspiracy, its now starting to happen.

http://www.northernsound.ie/news/camera-motor-tax-checks-on-m50/

monument

Care to explain?

I have not read that much news today if it was in the papers or online.

Run_to_da_hills

monument wrote: »

Care to explain?

I have not read that much news today if it was in the papers or online.

ANPR toll cams across the country will now be used to police road tax, NCT and what ever else.

The system will be connected directly up to the pulse system.

AlekSmart

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

ANPR toll cams across the country will now be used to police road tax, NCT and what ever else.

The system will be connected directly up to the pulse system.

It's a little more than this in Irelands case,as the latest wheeze involves a giving significant degree of access to the National Driver Database to the likes of the Go-Safe or NTR Consortia.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist,but I remain wary of allowing private companies access to any details I have suplied to a Regulatory Agency on demand.

As far as I'm concerned if Go-Safe want access to data submitted by me to the State,then they can pay me for it...how about that for a deal then ?

Run_to_da_hills

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's a little more than this in Irelands case,as the latest wheeze involves a giving significant degree of access to the National Driver Database to the likes of the Go-Safe or NTR Consortia.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist,but I remain wary of allowing private companies access to any details I have suplied to a Regulatory Agency on demand.

As far as I'm concerned if Go-Safe want access to data submitted by me to the State,then they can pay me for it...how about that for a deal then ?

This is also the part that I have issues with.

Private companies holding and furnishing confidential information of which we were led to believe were not a part of the deal when the automated toll system was initially set up in 2008.

ironclaw

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's a little more than this in Irelands case,as the latest wheeze involves a giving significant degree of access to the National Driver Database to the likes of the Go-Safe or NTR Consortia.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist,but I remain wary of allowing private companies access to any details I have suplied to a Regulatory Agency on demand.

As far as I'm concerned if Go-Safe want access to data submitted by me to the State,then they can pay me for it...how about that for a deal then ?

It works in reverse, I'd imagine all the ANPR data will be passed to the NRA or relevant government authority and processed that way. Nothing to do with the toll companies etc and I doubt they care. Either way its fairly simple to filter out any details that would be deemed private i.e. Address, Name etc. It will just get flagged as 'untaxed' and the relevant body notified. People need to understand these systems before making conclusions about how their private data is shared.

I'm all for these systems. I'd rather see a major clamp down on un-taxed and un-insured cars. Its about time.

L1011

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No longer a conspiracy, its now starting to happen.

http://www.northernsound.ie/news/camera-motor-tax-checks-on-m50/

ANPR bears zero relation to your paranoid conspiracies.

Run_to_da_hills

MYOB wrote: »

ANPR bears zero relation to your paranoid conspiracies.

Think about it.

ANPR / RFID are the tools in question.

When Eflow was given the contract, we were lead to believe that this was a convenient electronic replacement for paying tolls instead of hard cash. ANPR / RFID were simply the tools to be used by both motorists and Eflow to make this happen. (As seen in this commercial)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSkIc3KIMvU

But now according to today's news things are going to be a lot different. Instead of just collecting tolls for the Westlink bridge, Eflow will now act as a police force and will be using these same tools for monitoring road tax and spying on motorists.

I have also issues with private corporations taking on tasks that were formally reserved for the Gardai and local councils. Confidential data going missing, falling into the wrong hands and going astray etc. and don't say that this never happens.

I can also foresee more Gardai taken off the beat and further stations closures as hands on police work gets given over to more private companies and electronic databases Posted 2 years ago:

Those that continually wish to default on their motor tax and drive without NCT will simply take an alternative route.

ironclaw

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

//Nonsense

Your assuming the flow of data is from the Motor tax office to the private operators. And your assuming they hand over the entire book i.e Name, Address and all. Its in fact entirely opposite. The M50 operators will most likely forward the sum total of all the number plates it read in the past day / week or month. The Tax office will then run a simply query and pull up the 'red flagged' plates of un-taxed, uninsured or whatever cars. It would then probably request photo evidence from the likes of the M50 operators. And hey presto they have a case.

Theres many different ways of doing this and in any eventually no personal details have to be shared. At most a license plate number. Your plate number is a publicly viewable number and hardly on the same level as your PPS. I don't see the issue even if your data did get 'into the wild' as frankly the days of personal privacy are long. The changes of your data being shared without your knowledge right now are actually pretty high.

You also clearly have no understanding of the basic technologies in use nor information exchange in large database systems.

Run_to_da_hills

ironclaw wrote: »

You also clearly have no understanding of the basic technologies in use nor information exchange in large database systems.

One only has to look across the water and see the direction where all this is heading. ANPR at every junction along UK Motoways.

Very soon you not be able to drive anywhere across London without being tracked on the London Congestion charge ANPR system.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/apr/02/boris-johnson-police-congestion-charge

http://content.met.police.uk/News/New-approach-to-ANPR-launched/1400012148405/1257246741786

ironclaw

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

One only has to look across the water and see the direction where all this is heading. ANPR at every junction along UK Motoways.

Very soon you not be able to drive anywhere across London without being tracked on the London Congestion charge ANPR system.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/apr/02/boris-johnson-police-congestion-charge

http://content.met.police.uk/News/New-approach-to-ANPR-launched/1400012148405/1257246741786

What is your point? They're not tracking people and no private information is changing hands. Its child's play to track someone online, its easy to track the very phone in your pocket even without GPS and contact-less card technology makes skimming credit cards even easier. Technology is breaking down the walls of modern privacy. So unless you live without internet and phone your information isn't safe. Fact.

So you have to ask what difference does an ANPR system make to our modern day privacy? Privacy does not exist any more.

Run_to_da_hills

ironclaw wrote: »

So you have to ask what difference does an ANPR system make to our modern day privacy? Privacy does not exist any more.

This is my point, by connecting existing and all future toll ANPR cams to the pulse it will only tighten the noose on what little we privacy we have left.

Financial Times was on the ball when it stated that that privacy end by 2013.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=58233837

ThreeLineWhip

I for one welcome this.

Victor

Thread Split from here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055367340

ironclaw

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This is my point, by connecting existing and all future toll ANPR cams to the pulse it will only tighten the noose on what little we privacy we have left.

Financial Times was on the ball when it stated that that privacy end by 2013.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=58233837

Whats everyone's concern with privacy? Its long gone and thinking its not obliterated is showing a complete ignorance to data security and its flaws. People need to educate themselves. Privacy is well and truly ended.

I welcome it as it will finally clamp down on people unwilling to pay motor tax and insurance while the rest of us make ends meet to be above board.

Run_to_da_hills

ironclaw wrote: »

I welcome it as it will finally clamp down on people unwilling to pay motor tax and insurance while the rest of us make ends meet to be above board.

I said before, it won't matter a hoot to those that don't pay motor tax or insurance, they will simply familiarize themselves with these camera locations and avoid them.

To summarize what I have being saying. There are serious issues of regulatory creep particularly with ANPR and RFID technology, ie when it is subsequently discovered to have a range of uses that were not envisaged by the community at the time of implementation and thus are inadequately regulated. IE when the Westlink Gantry CCTV system was installed five years ago did the Government have in mind that it could also double up as a surveylance and monitoring tool?.

Once connected to the pulse system these same cameras can be adapted to a multitude of uses such as average speed cameras if synchronized with other gantry ANPR systems. This is becoming widespread and a controversial revenue earner for the authorities right across the UK.

Traditional law enforcement is based on the assumption that the police only track and watch people where solid evidence of criminal activity already exists.

It does not and should not involve tracking every single person going about their everyday normal business by using electronic tools such as RFID, CCTV, ANPR and systematic profiling that infers past deeds or future action on the basis of your residential address, work address, sex, how much tax you paid last year and whether you travel overseas.

Victor

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This is my point, by connecting existing and all future toll ANPR cams to the pulse it will only tighten the noose on what little we privacy we have left.

Get a bike.

It may be that the Data Protection Commissioner will only allow the data to be retained if there is a particular reason to do so - intention to prosecute, person of interest, etc. and that ordinary people can't be tracked.

Some journey time traffic surveys being done at the moment use people's wi-fi ID on their phone (an alternative would be to scan their registration, but that is less processable). The data can be processed, but the raw information can't be retained.

Losty Dublin

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I said before, it won't matter a hoot to those that don't pay motor tax or insurance, they will simply familiarize themselves with these camera locations and avoid them.

To summarize what I have being saying. There are serious issues of regulatory creep particularly with ANPR and RFID technology, ie when it is subsequently discovered to have a range of uses that were not envisaged by the community at the time of implementation and thus are inadequately regulated. IE when the Westlink Gantry CCTV system was installed five years ago did the Government have in mind that it could also double up as a surveylance and monitoring tool?.

Once connected to the pulse system these same cameras can be adapted to a multitude of uses such as average speed cameras if synchronized with other gantry ANPR systems. This is becoming widespread and a controversial revenue earner for the authorities right across the UK.

Traditional law enforcement is based on the assumption that the police only track and watch people where solid evidence of criminal activity already exists.

It does not and should not involve tracking every single person going about their everyday normal business by using electronic tools such as RFID, CCTV, ANPR and systematic profiling that infers past deeds or future action on the basis of your residential address, work address, sex, how much tax you paid last year and whether you travel overseas.

You really are grasping at straws with this altogether. Aside from the fact that the ones who will be affected by this are those committing crimes (Namely driving with no motor tax, insurance and/or NCT), you are going along with the slim idea that the organs of state are actually going to be actively tracking people driving along a section of motorway. Hell, I don't even know how much resources it will take or more to the point, why they'd want to know why you or I drive across the M 50 or whatever road it is. If they happen to have other uses for the toll readers then more power to them for it; I for one don't buy your conspiracy theory rhubarb.

Chris_5339762

Anecdotally, I think that the non payment of cartax is astronomical in this country so I am delighted they can use the M50 cams to clamp down on it, and raise a bit of revenue in the process. Sure, people can avoid it, but at rush hour, the M50 is so much quicker than going through town that people wont be as inclined to dodge it.

Now, all they have to do is include the car tax due in the E-Flow 'payment demand', or take it automatically from your card if you're registered

Run_to_da_hills

Victor wrote: »

Get a bike.

Have one.

And they will find it hard to catch me on it in the city.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

You really are grasping at straws with this altogether. Aside from the fact that the ones who will be affected by this are those committing crimes (Namely driving with no motor tax, insurance and/or NCT), you are going along with the slim idea that the organs of state are actually going to be actively tracking people driving along a section of motorway. Hell, I don't even know how much resources it will take or more to the point, why they'd want to know why you or I drive across the M 50 or whatever road it is. If they happen to have other uses for the toll readers then more power to them for it; I for one don't buy your conspiracy theory rhubarb.

I think the whole country knows at this stage that it would be foolish to drive past the Westlink or other toll gantries if your tax or NCT is not up to scratch. On a positive side it would probably make people that need to use these routes go out and get their cars taxed.

If the authorities really want to catch motor tax dodgers they would be better deploying Garda check points along all the alternate routes to these places.

lucernarian

In its current form, the bike would indeed draw the attention of Gardaí. That photo is of a bike that's not road-worthy.

ironclaw

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If the authorities really want to catch motor tax dodgers they would be better deploying Garda check points along all the alternate routes to these places.

While I agree that they don't have ANPR blanket coverage, to successfully dodge the cameras one would have to (currently) avoid the M50, the N7 and every toll bridge in the country. In the course of normal driving they would also have to avoid every ANPR equipped traffic corp car. Its only a matter of time til we follow the UK and have tax vans (Similar to current speed vans) To suggest it would be possible to avoid the cameras by purely attempting to avoid them is a complete non-runner. You'll eventually meet one of the means of detection no matter how hard one tries.

miller50841

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Have one.

And they will find it hard to catch me on it in the city.



I think the whole country knows at this stage that it would be foolish to drive past the Westlink or other toll gantries if your tax or NCT is not up to scratch. On a positive side it would probably make people that need to use these routes go out and get their cars taxed.

If the authorities really want to catch motor tax dodgers they would be better deploying Garda check points along all the alternate routes to these places.

Illegal bike no brakes so not to be used.
Bit confused as to what the latest craze is with these types of bikes ?

Run_to_da_hills

miller50841 wrote: »

Illegal bike no brakes so not to be used.

TBH, That is a track bike on private property.

(Just one brake and a bell fitted would make it street legal)

miller50841 wrote: »

Bit confused as to what the latest craze is with these types of bikes ?

You can blame Hollywood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn6ie1zCkZU

lucernarian

The above alone would not make it street legal, the bike requires front and back reflectors also. But no wonder it would be hard to catch you on it in any city, seeing as you don't even use that bike on public roads

Losty Dublin

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I think the whole country knows at this stage that it would be foolish to drive past the Westlink or other toll gantries if your tax or NCT is not up to scratch. On a positive side it would probably make people that need to use these routes go out and get their cars taxed.

If the authorities really want to catch motor tax dodgers they would be better deploying Garda check points along all the alternate routes to these places.

People should not be on any road unless they are taxed, insured or covered with an NCT. If this aid assists in detecting it then all the power to the Gards if it makes life a little easier for them.

Run_to_da_hills

Losty Dublin wrote: »

People should not be on any road unless they are taxed, insured or covered with an NCT. If this aid assists in detecting it then all the power to the Gards if it makes life a little easier for them.

It will make it so easy for the Gardai that it may in the long run cost many of them their jobs as more of this type of work is automated to computers and then possibly some out sourced office.

We are already witnessing a cull on Garda recruitment and stations closing down left right and center across the country.

The "safe cam" contract is another example of privatization and take over of hands on Garda work, No doubt these guys will also in the not so distant future be using their ANPR cams for monitoring for Road Tax, NCT.

Losty Dublin

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It will make it so easy for the Gardai that it may in the long run cost many of them their jobs as more of this type of work is automated to computers and then possibly some out sourced office.

We are already witnessing a cull on Garda recruitment and stations closing down left right and center across the country.

The "safe cam" contract is another example of privatization and take over of hands on Garda work, No doubt these guys will also in the not so distant future be using their ANPR cams for monitoring for Road Tax, NCT.

That is the biggest pile of illogical and misinformed conjecture I've ever heard . The Evening Herald would be proud of such balderdash.

Going Forward

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That is the biggest pile of illogical and misinformed conjecture I've ever heard . The Evening Herald would be proud of such balderdash.

Its not illogical at all, its using limited resources smartly, and whether one agrees with the concept or not, it would be quite 'logical' to use whatever information a driver of an uninsured car is willing to profer, such as having the brass neck to drive on the M50.

I'm not particularly comfortable with the idea myself, as I dont trust private companies to respect confidential information, that said, i wouldnt drive around with no insurance anyway.

But who is to say that Revenue for example would not be able to make a justifiable request for oversight of such records to enable travel checks of suspected individuals or companies?

Victor

Going Forward wrote: »

But who is to say that Revenue for example would not be able to make a justifiable request for oversight of such records to enable travel checks of suspected individuals or companies?

They would need a warrant. And the software would need to be set up to record such matters.

eFlow: Reps

Hi all,

On Thursday, February 7th at the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) Government officials discussed the potential to utilise a variety of state resources to assist with road tax compliance. One of the potential resources for use by Government is to cross reference road tax compliance information with the information automatically collected by the barrier free tolling system on the M50.
At this point in time there has been no request from Government to take any action, but officials have stated they will be moving forward on this initiative.


Hope this helps,


John

AlekSmart

eFlow: Reps wrote: »

Hi all,

On Thursday, February 7th at the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) Government officials discussed the potential to utilise a variety of state resources to assist with road tax compliance. One of the potential resources for use by Government is to cross reference road tax compliance information with the information automatically collected by the barrier free tolling system on the M50.
At this point in time there has been no request from Government to take any action, but officials have stated they will be moving forward on this initiative.

Hope this helps,

John

Yes,"moving forward" indeed.....I have little doubt but it will move RAPIDLY forward.

I am cynical enough to wonder why such "forward movement" proves SO difficult in many other areas where such "Officials" lurk.....;)

serfboard

AlekSmart wrote: »

Yes,"moving forward" indeed.....I have little doubt but it will move RAPIDLY forward.

I am cynical enough to wonder why such "forward movement" proves SO difficult in many other areas where such "Officials" lurk.....;)

Spending money - "constitutional difficulties", "IT problems" etc. etc.

Taking in money - "expect it to be implemented within the current fiscal year" ...

LeinsterDub

serfboard wrote: »

Spending money - "constitutional difficulties", "IT problems" etc. etc.

Taking in money - "expect it to be implemented within the current fiscal year" ...

Not really they still haven't integrated Revenue and Dept of Social services with regarding Child Benefit

ThreeLineWhip

Revenue and social protection are not integrated full stop.

Even various internal departments within social protection do not talk to each other.

cml387

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It will make it so easy for the Gardai that it may in the long run cost many of them their jobs as more of this type of work is automated to computers and then possibly some out sourced office.

Or just maybe they might be deployed to detect or discourage more serious crime?

ardmacha

Traditional law enforcement is based on the assumption that the police only track and watch people where solid evidence of criminal activity already exists.

Gardai have always had checkpoints where they observe those passing through to see if they have paid motor tax. This is an electronic version.
In both cases they note those who are breaking the law and do not store anything about the others.