Fined for Going through Red Lights

edmac33

I was on my way home 3 weeks ago with wife and kids and drove through a small village when a Traffic Corp Garda pulled me over, he said I went through 2 sets of red lights one after the other. I'm 100% positive I didn't leading up to these red lights is a big speed ramp thing so you have to basically stop regardless of the colour of the lights.

My wife and I were shocked that he said I went through 2 reds so I asked him where did this happen as I only pass through the area not familiar at all with the names of streets. He seemed to get thick with me after I told him I didn't know where these roads were. My wife would be the first to give out to me if I went through reds she thought he had his lights on to let him go past me!

The upshot was that he just started asking for my details name, address etc. he went into robot mode! never said he was issuing me with anything so I asked why are you taking my details? He said he was going to fine me twice! I gave my details and asked for his full name which he refused to give only Garda X as in first name only. Imagine that! I forgot to ask for his badge number, he was getting annoyed that I asked him a question!

He said if I pay one fine he will wipe the other. We drove off fuming!

Does this sound normal?

Anyway still waiting on fines but if I get them what's the best thing to do? Should I go to court and fight it or just pay up for something I'm not guilty of doing and take the 2 points and €80 fine? If i go to court he said he will stick me with two fines which means 4 pts and €160 and if i lose its twice that i think. I have never had any points and I know in my own heart with especially having the 3 kids and wife in car I'd never go through any reds! Has he any way of proving I did? There was no cameras on lights I wanted to check so I can prove for myself.

Basically any guard can stop anyone say they did a traffic violation and if you want to fight you have to go to court it's stupid cause its just a way of bullying people into taking the medicine.

Is there any loopholes I can use?

kneemos

So the lights were green when you went through them?

edmac33

kneemos wrote: »

So the lights were green when you went through them?

Yes I'm 100% sure on that, I was even thinking afterwards did he gets mixed up with another vehicle as he said he was behind me coming through the village which I also know he wasn't.

Atlantic Dawn

Not much you can do without evidence or witnesses, your only hope is if it goes to court and another 500 similar cases regarding the same garda that the judge will eventually think that the garda is dodgy.

kneemos

Traffic corp cars have cameras but don't know if they have to keep it as evidence or not,you could have asked to see it if you'd known.

Daithi07

Bastard! He probably recently got a bollocking back at the station for not being productive enough and you were just picked on so he could redeem himself!

edmac33

kneemos wrote: »

Traffic corp cars have cameras but don't know if they have to keep it as evidence or not,you could have asked to see it if you'd known.

Is it too late to ask for evidence?

kneemos

edmac33 wrote: »

Is it too late to ask for evidence?

No idea

kneemos

Two points and eighty quid or a day off work and whatever the judge decides,either way your going to lose.

Kenny Logins

I find it hard to believe that anybody would drive through two sets of red lights in succession, with a Traffic Corps car in their rear-view mirror...

What were the locations he gave you? Did you use those roads?

Ask for proof. He should have given his full name. Go to your local gards station and outline what happened and ask was he a real garda. Sounds very iffy to me.

edmac33

Kenny Logins wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that anybody would drive through two sets of red lights in succession, with a Traffic Corps car in their rear-view mirror...

What were the locations he gave you? Did you use those roads?

It was the main road through a village, when I asked him what roads were these he said one outside the post office the other outside a bank. But instead of just saying that he rattled off Bally this and Bally that this is why I asked where these locations were cause I only ever pass through dont know it as official names.

edmac33

kneemos wrote: »

Two points and eighty quid or a day off work and whatever the judge decides,either way your going to lose.

Yeah my point exactly you can't dispute unless you go to court so if a guard wants to he/she can just act the maggot and the **** is left with you. How fair is that? I mean sure they must have more proof other than just what they say? Like I couldn't go around and say someone beat me up without some sort of proof or witness?

Eireann81

This is where a dashcam would come in handy. Sorry to hear what happened OP. As most of the other posters said, it'll be your word against his unfortunately.

kona

edmac33 wrote: »

I was on my way home 3 weeks ago with wife and kids and drove through a small village when a Traffic Corp Garda pulled me over, he said I went through 2 sets of red lights one after the other. I'm 100% positive I didn't leading up to these red lights is a big speed ramp thing so you have to basically stop regardless of the colour of the lights.

My wife and I were shocked that he said I went through 2 reds so I asked him where did this happen as I only pass through the area not familiar at all with the names of streets. He seemed to get thick with me after I told him I didn't know where these roads were. My wife would be the first to give out to me if I went through reds she thought he had his lights on to let him go past me!

The upshot was that he just started asking for my details name, address etc. he went into robot mode! never said he was issuing me with anything so I asked why are you taking my details? He said he was going to fine me twice! I gave my details and asked for his full name which he refused to give only Garda X as in first name only. Imagine that! I forgot to ask for his badge number, he was getting annoyed that I asked him a question!

He said if I pay one fine he will wipe the other. We drove off fuming!

Does this sound normal?

Anyway still waiting on fines but if I get them what's the best thing to do? Should I go to court and fight it or just pay up for something I'm not guilty of doing and take the 2 points and €80 fine? If i go to court he said he will stick me with two fines which means 4 pts and €160 and if i lose its twice that i think. I have never had any points and I know in my own heart with especially having the 3 kids and wife in car I'd never go through any reds! Has he any way of proving I did? There was no cameras on lights I wanted to check so I can prove for myself.

Basically any guard can stop anyone say they did a traffic violation and if you want to fight you have to go to court it's stupid cause its just a way of bullying people into taking the medicine.

Is there any loopholes I can use?

Jesus you need to learn to talk to Garda traffic corps, you talked yourself into those fines!

Kenny Logins

kona wrote: »

Jesus you need to learn to talk to Garda traffic corps, you talked yourself into those fines!

Yes sir, no sir? I know this is only ones side of the story, but it does sound like the Garda made a mistake, and asking why he stopped you is the right thing to do IMHO.

Patrick2010

kona wrote: »

Jesus you need to learn to talk to Garda traffic corps, you talked yourself into those fines!

Just curious but what would you have said in the OPs position where you knew you hadn't gone through a red light?, apologized and said you won't do it again?

kona

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Just curious but what would you have said in the OPs position where you knew you hadn't gone through a red light?, apologized and said you won't do it again?

Yea , and I wouldn't be getting fined and points. Bit of respect goes along way, a bit a cop on goes even further , Garda are like refs dya think arguing with them will change their mind?

the culture of deference

Count yourself lucky that he didn't handcuff you and stick you in a cell for a few hours, then called the press.

Henry Ford III

My experience is that you give the cops no reason to pull you over they won't.

Sorry O.P. but I just don't believe you. Trouble is a judge, should it get that far, will have the same opinion.

The evidence of a Traffic Corps Garda will be accepted without question.

kneemos

Henry Ford III wrote: »

My experience is that you give the cops no reason to pull you over they won't.

Sorry O.P. but I just don't believe you. Trouble is a judge, should it get that far, will have the same opinion.

The evidence of a Traffic Corps Garda will be accepted without question.

Regardless of the op's circumstances he raises the point of what do you do when the guards make a mistake,they're not infallible by any means.

edmac33

kona wrote: »

Jesus you need to learn to talk to Garda traffic corps, you talked yourself into those fines!

He had already started to take my details before I asked him why he was taking them and afterwards I asked his name so it didn't matter what was said really. Is it against the law for a tax payer to ask a public servant a few questions? If so it's probably time we emigrated to somewhere more civil like Mexico. LOL:)

edmac33

kona wrote: »

Yea , and I wouldn't be getting fined and points. Bit of respect goes along way, a bit a cop on goes even further , Garda are like refs dya think arguing with them will change their mind?

Respect works both ways!
Just cause he is a guard employed by the good tax payers of our country doesn't give him any special powers to speech control. I never used any bad language or had any tone with him as you know I had my 3 young kids and Wife in the car with me.

Why admit to something you didn't do just because he is a Guard? And by doing so admitting that takes away my right of appeal in court doesn't it? I think it was better to query why he stopped us so I could decide on what I want to do at a later date.

Still haven't received my fine notices so who knows? They may never come.

CiniO

I must admit that even I live in Ireland for the last 6 years, and I drive a lot, I never really had a contact with gards.

But at least once a week I see here a post where someone described contact with garda very negatively - usually by gard being rude, not explaining anything, not answering questions, not obeying procedures, and giving someone a bollocking for what they done on the road.
If that's true I must say it's a disgrace.

In Poland I used to have contact with police very often as roadchecks are widespread.
Even recently when I was there 4 weeks I was pulled over 5 times.

Anyway - contact with Police is always in friendly manner.
It usually looks something like that:
Policeman: Goodmorning, sergant XXXX here, can I see you licence, reg cert and insurance cert.
Me: Goodmorning, here it is.
Policeman: Sir, you were above the speed limit by 28km/h, it's going to be 300zl fine and 5 penalty points - do you accept the fine?
Me: Can I not accept it?
Policeman: yes, you can, but then I'll have to bring the case to the court against you and you might end up worse.
Me: I accept the fine.
Policeman: Please sign here, that's your fine - 7 days to pay.
Me: Thanks,
Policeman: Thankyou, have a pleasant and safe journey.

Usually it looks like above.
And my experience with police in other EU countries is similar.

That's why I wonder is it just Irish garda which are completely not professional and rude, or is it people here on this forum who write untrue?

edmac33

Henry Ford III wrote: »

My experience is that you give the cops no reason to pull you over they won't.

Sorry O.P. but I just don't believe you. Trouble is a judge, should it get that far, will have the same opinion.

The evidence of a Traffic Corps Garda will be accepted without question.

I don't entirely agree with that statement, are you saying that Guards don't randomly stop people? And then look for faults? This happens too.

Fact is throughout ones driving lifespan it is more than likely that you will at some point get pulled over or stopped.

As I said I was driving through a small village with family going 20 kph at night time, it's impossible to run a red due to the raised bump before each light you have to stop almost to go over it you can't drive on.

Also the court hears both side don't they unless we live in a communist country?
I have been to court previously with a friend and on that day the judge questioned the Garda if it was possible that he could have made a mistake and the reply was its possible and it was thrown out cause there is no fool proof way that any guard can be 100% positive that they were correct.

edmac33

CiniO wrote: »

I must admit that even I live in Ireland for the last 6 years, and I drive a lot, I never really had a contact with gards.

But at least once a week I see here a post where someone described contact with garda very negatively - usually by gard being rude, not explaining anything, not answering questions, not obeying procedures, and giving someone a bollocking for what they done on the road.
If that's true I must say it's a disgrace.

In Poland I used to have contact with police very often as roadchecks are widespread.
Even recently when I was there 4 weeks I was pulled over 5 times.

Anyway - contact with Police is always in friendly manner.
It usually looks something like that:
Policeman: Goodmorning, sergant XXXX here, can I see you licence, reg cert and insurance cert.
Me: Goodmorning, here it is.
Policeman: Sir, you were above the speed limit by 28km/h, it's going to be 300zl fine and 5 penalty points - do you accept the fine?
Me: Can I not accept it?
Policeman: yes, you can, but then I'll have to bring the case to the court against you and you might end up worse.
Me: I accept the fine.
Policeman: Please sign here, that's your fine - 7 days to pay.
Me: Thanks,
Policeman: Thankyou, have a pleasant and safe journey.

Usually it looks like above.
And my experience with police in other EU countries is similar.

That's why I wonder is it just Irish garda which are completely not professional and rude, or is it people here on this forum who write untrue?

It would seem here that if you lie down and take the medicine even if your wrong then it's good from the guards point of view. However if you have a mind and use it by asking simple questions they get their backs up as if how very very dare you question me a guard!

Don't get me wrong I respect the Guards and have met many very pleasant ones but I'm talking about the particular type here that seem to get their backs up for no reason. My kids were terrified on the way home asking me was I going to jail! in all fairness like ! Oh and you want to see how fast he took off I'm certain it wasn't within the speed limit either.

ironclaw

This happened me on Pembrooke St Upper, going onto Leeson St Lower, south bound (At about 3am). I was coming out of Pembrooke St and the Traffic Corp was on Leeson St. Pulled me at the Burlington claiming I had ran a red light, which I hadn't.

I wasn't fined or given points at the time as we nicely discussed the issue (And the other 4 drunks in my car. I don't drink at all) But things to remember for anyone else:

1) I had a dash cam which I didn't mention in the conversation but on later inspection the light was green until I was about 2m from the stop line and on a road where it had recently lashed rain. I had no opportunity to stop. However, I went back to the junction and the orange / green change between the two sets is very quick (i.e Pembrooke Orange to Red and the subsequent Green on Leeson St)

2) The Garda couldn't see my lights as he was coming from my right. Its enough reasonable doubt in this circumstance if you wanted to go to court i.e. Light malfunction.

OP, you should request the in car video from the car in question if you can. I'd imagine the case would be dropped fairly sharpish if there was any doubt. I'd also write to the local super and express the unprofessional manner that you were dealt with.

Henry Ford III

edmac33 wrote: »

I don't entirely agree with that statement, are you saying that Guards don't randomly stop people? And then look for faults? This happens too.

Fact is throughout ones driving lifespan it is more than likely that you will at some point get pulled over or stopped.

As I said I was driving through a small village with family going 20 kph at night time, it's impossible to run a red due to the raised bump before each light you have to stop almost to go over it you can't drive on.

Also the court hears both side don't they unless we live in a communist country?
I have been to court previously with a friend and on that day the judge questioned the Garda if it was possible that he could have made a mistake and the reply was its possible and it was thrown out cause there is no fool proof way that any guard can be 100% positive that they were correct.

Random stops. Yes absolutely. No big deal either. Yours wasn't random though.

As I said if a traffic corps cop says in court you broke 2 red lights, and you say you didn't, chances are a judge will believe the Garda. Why would they pull you over and go to all the trouble of taking a case otherwise?

Breaking 2 red lights is very cut a dried thing I've have thought.

mickdw

I would question the garda every time if I thought he was wrong and giving me a fine and points for no reason. Not to do that just makes them think they are all powerful.
I challenged a garda over a speeding fine 104 in an 80. I told him the signs were not adequate and also told him I was turning there and then to see where there was a sign saying 80 and that i would challenge it. He said I was getting the points anyway cause the signs were all around. I had to drive 28 miles approx to find the 80 sign.
I never heard a word about it after that. Maybe he didnt want the hassle of court but Im glad I questioned it.
I wasnt rude or anything but I certainly told him that that I wasnt having it.

kona

edmac33 wrote: »

He had already started to take my details before I asked him why he was taking them and afterwards I asked his name so it didn't matter what was said really. Is it against the law for a tax payer to ask a public servant a few questions? If so it's probably time we emigrated to somewhere more civil like Mexico. LOL:)

So? Let him you did nothing wrong he's doing his job. If somebody asked for my full name I'd tell them to get ****ed too, it comes across almost like a threat , he has numbers on his shoulder note these if ya want to make a complaint.you are entitled to argue etc etc but look where it's gotten ya? All this I'm a tax payer so I'm entitled to ask a public servant personal questions is a serious attitude problem. And this is coming from somebody who doesn't particularly like the way the Garda do things, but when I'm pulled ill let him/ her do her job and be polite. I find if you say sorry and you didn't realise, you were lost etc they will understand, give you a warning and off ya go. I doubt the Garda wants to go back and fill out a loads forms and bull**** just to give you points. In my opinion you broke the lights unwittingly , a mistake, then got all defensive and gave the Garda some attitude, to which he responded by fining you. If you just admitted, apologised , sorry gard I was lost and wasn't concentrating on the lights, ask him for directions , let him take your details and say goodnight. I'd be surprised if you heard anything. I get hassle all the time from Garda due to the car I drive, never had an issue with them if I'm nice, even when I have done wrong.

Turner

The Garda is not legally obliged to give you his name.

Every Garda has identification numbers on their shoulders with max of 3 digits.

Not that hard to remember.

dr.fuzzenstein

kona wrote: »

So? Let him you did nothing wrong he's doing his job. If somebody asked for my full name I'd tell them to get ****ed too, it comes across almost like a threat , he has numbers on his shoulder note these if ya want to make a complaint.you are entitled to argue etc etc but look where it's gotten ya? All this I'm a tax payer so I'm entitled to ask a public servant personal questions is a serious attitude problem. And this is coming from somebody who doesn't particularly like the way the Garda do things, but when I'm pulled ill let him/ her do her job and be polite. I find if you say sorry and you didn't realise, you were lost etc they will understand, give you a warning and off ya go. I doubt the Garda wants to go back and fill out a loads forms and bull**** just to give you points. In my opinion you broke the lights unwittingly , a mistake, then got all defensive and gave the Garda some attitude, to which he responded by fining you. If you just admitted, apologised , sorry gard I was lost and wasn't concentrating on the lights, ask him for directions , let him take your details and say goodnight. I'd be surprised if you heard anything. I get hassle all the time from Garda due to the car I drive, never had an issue with them if I'm nice, even when I have done wrong.

And if he didn't run those lights he just admitted to doing so and therefore landed himself right in it.
Of course the Gard will not and cannot budge from his position, they are like football refs that way, no matter how wrong and insane the call, no matter if they know it, once the call is made, they have to stick by it.
But unlike a football ref, a Garda's decision can be overturned on appeal.
We can't say for sure if the OP gave the Gard attitude, we weren't there and cannot know.
However, a Gard that makes up a charge, becomes aggressive when challenged, refuses to give his name and tries to bully the other person would be more suited to doing duty in Nigeria, Columbia, China, Siberia or some other country where the law only exists as a bit of a laugh, but not in a country that, on paper, belongs to the first world elite and should pride itself on proper procedure and conduct, not Garda Mick throwing his big shtomach around to put the fear of God in people.
A sign of bad policing with no regard for the rules of conduct and proper procedures for a 21st century, 1st world police force.
That sh*t belongs in the 19th century.

And:
A Gard not legally obliged to give his name?
Jesus tapdancing Christ!
A Gard will have to give his name, show his ID, explain what Garda station he is from and I must be allowed to ring said Garda station to confirm the existance of said Gard and the mission he is on.
Otherwise that Gard that stops you could be a criminal dressed up as a Gard and you end up robbed, beaten up or worse.
Any Gard that refuses the above has to be viewed as dodgy.

Turner

I said is not "legally" obliged....

Members of the public under certain acts are legally obliged to give their name and address to a Garda.

kona

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

And if he didn't run those lights he just admitted to doing so and therefore landed himself right in it.
.

Oh did I gard? I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the area, I've the family here and I'm trying to get home to put the kids to bed, I mustn't have been concentrating. I'm looking for road x ? Can you give me some directions please gard?

Gard takes details , gives you a bollicking and gives you directions.

Goodnight gard thank you.

If op did that there wouldn't have been a issue IMO.

Asking for names n getting in a argument with a gard is just too much effort and carries too much of a pain in the arse.

edmac33

Turner wrote: »

I said is not "legally" obliged....

Members of the public under certain acts are legally obliged to give their name and address to a Garda.

Which I gave as previously explained without any attitude too.

JerCotter7

kona wrote: »

Oh did I gard? I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the area, I've the family here and I'm trying to get home to put the kids to bed, I mustn't have been concentrating. I'm looking for road x ? Can you give me some directions please gard?

Gard takes details , gives you a bollicking and gives you directions.

Goodnight gard thank you.

If op did that there wouldn't have been a issue IMO.

Asking for names n getting in a argument with a gard is just too much effort and carries too much of a pain in the arse.

Gard then adds driving without due care to your other 2 offences.

Being nice will not get you off every fine. And rightfully so.

dr.fuzzenstein

Turner wrote: »

I said is not "legally" obliged....

Members of the public under certain acts are legally obliged to give their name and address to a Garda.

OK, I have to admit I can't find anything definite on that, but that raises further questions.
Can I rent a Garda uniform from a costume shop and harass people and when questioned say "I do not have to identify myself to you" and continue? it is obviouslly illegal, but if I sufficiently look like a Gard and do not have to show ID, what's to stop me there and then?
How can I be sure the Gard who stops me isn't a criminal out to mug people?
I'd be a bit worried about the implications of that.

mfceiling

Where exactly was it OP?

We can google earth it and give you a fair boards trial.

Reg'stoy

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

OK, I have to admit I can't find anything definite on that, but that raises further questions.
Can I rent a Garda uniform from a costume shop and harass people and when questioned say "I do not have to identify myself to you" and continue? it is obviouslly illegal, but if I sufficiently look like a Gard and do not have to show ID, what's to stop me there and then?
How can I be sure the Gard who stops me isn't a criminal out to mug people?
I'd be a bit worried about the implications of that.

How many people know what a Garda's identification looks like. Do they even know what the Garda badge looks like. If he said KE123 would you accept this as Gospel.

Would you insist that people ask for pictures of the Garda's ID, and then ring his station before answering his questions. What next; asking for a Garda to come and identify a traffic warden before he can issue you a ticket.

All this will lead to, more garda time being wasted in court because some 'freeman' reckons the Guard wasn't wearing his hat and didn't have the oath he swore on, when he issued him a ticket for breaking a red light.

kona

JerCotter7 wrote: »

Gard then adds driving without due care to your other 2 offences.

Being nice will not get you off every fine. And rightfully so.

Fair enough works for me and I've a clean license

dr.fuzzenstein

Reg'stoy wrote: »

How many people know what a Garda's identification looks like. Do they even know what the Garda badge looks like. If he said KE123 would you accept this as Gospel.

Would you insist that people ask for pictures of the Garda's ID, and then ring his station before answering his questions. What next; asking for a Garda to come and identify a traffic warden before he can issue you a ticket.

All this will lead to, more garda time being wasted in court because some 'freeman' reckons the Guard wasn't wearing his hat and didn't have the oath he swore on, when he issued him a ticket for breaking a red light.

Oh God, don't get me started on the Free Man thing, I'm not exactly someone who accepts everything at face value, but these guys are just nuts. I've seen the YouTube videos and that is just asking for trouble. No, that is not what I meant at all.
In all my dealings with the Gardai and the Polizei (very few and far between and mostly traffic stops) the question never arose. And I never had a problem with one of them. And I've never been in trouble, just in case anyone wants to know.
But if you where in doubt, would you blindly trust the uniform?
This would obviously be extraordinary circumstances, and it may never happen.
But if something smelled fishy to me, I would not hesitate to ask for clarification.
If the police officer you're dealing with is genuine and he knows you're only asking because you are concerned, there should not be a problem.
And I'm not talking about giving them guff and attitude, if you are reasonable with them, they will respond in a reasonable manner.

bcmf

OP they have 6 months to issue a summons to you if going to court.

visual

If your in court and it comes down to garda word or yours its a done deal as far as the judge is concerned.

I once got done by a garda for breaking a red light at a crossroads he was sitting at junction just as I was waiting on light to changed to green
I proceed through on green and he followed me and pulled me in. When I said this is bull he said it will be your word againts mine. It was a traffic garda.

During court judge ignored my plead of innocents and fined me the same amount as those who pleaded guilty.

Free state my arse it's nothing of the sort.
The garda do as they want and get away with so much. Roll on dash board cameras its the only way you can prove your innocents and put an end to these guys just getting the numbers to justify their job.

I should also say that I find the vast majority of gardai to be very professional but not all.