Photo PPS card

whydoibother

Hello, I have just finished my FAS course and had to go to welfare office to claim Jsb, no problems there, all fine but a friend/colleague of mine who was on same FAS course had to have his photo taken and this week he got his photo pps card. I thought he was kidding me but he actually showed it to me today. I've asked some of the others who were on same FAS course and all were surprised that this happened to him, they said its because he's polish... But is it really just discrimination? I wonder why if we were all in the same boat why was he singled out for a new pps card with a photo when as he said he had just got a new card just a few months back in 2012...
Could someone please shed light? Do ye know more people who've been thus discriminated by the DSP?
Thanks

Balagan

Info on the new Public Services Card
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/public_services_card.html

bootybouncer

ffs........jesus christ we really are a nation of morons, this is being brought in like it or lump it, fraud has alot to do with it, and about time they did this

whydoibother

bootybouncer wrote: »

ffs........jesus christ we really are a nation of morons, this is being brought in like it or lump it, fraud has alot to do with it, and about time they did this

I do apologise for being a moron! But please allow me to enquire when I am not sure. Can these cards be of any help to the cardholders themselves or does it just help to crack down on fraud like The Independent newspaper published sometime ago? Is there to be any benefit for the cardholder? Like, for example, if you are a highly educated individual, would the state help you find suitable work because in the card all info is registered for better or for worse. That's just a very silly example I know but really is there any good out of these new cards or are they just ways of fraud prevention? Even so I don't get how having this info can prevent fraud... Also is it legal to retain such info? What about privacy laws and data protection?

eastbono

Just for info... this new ppsn card has been trialed through a broad spectrum of the population and so the OP can report back to his Polish friend that they are not being singled out... civil servants are part of this trial so there is nothing racial about this new card.

Esoteric_

Polish people aren't being singled out. I have one of them, as does my sister, and we're both born and bred Dubs.

It's handy because once your photo is on it, you're not asked for additional ID when receiving payments.

eastbono

whydoibother wrote: »

I do apologise for being a moron! But please allow me to enquire when I am not sure. Can these cards be of any help to the cardholders themselves or does it just help to crack down on fraud like The Independent newspaper published sometime ago? Is there to be any benefit for the cardholder? Like, for example, if you are a highly educated individual, would the state help you find suitable work because in the card all info is registered for better or for worse. That's just a very silly example I know but really is there any good out of these new cards or are they just ways of fraud prevention? Even so I don't get how having this info can prevent fraud... Also is it legal to retain such info? What about privacy laws and data protection?

The new cards are just a sw card like you currently hold but there is more info on them along with a picture and it is hoped that it will cut down on fraud. I dont understand you question is there to be any benefit to the cardholder??? When you sign on for sw your occupation is recorded on sw database so is there a need to have it on you sw card also???

Balagan

Written Answers - Public Services Card
Tuesday, 1 May 2012
Dáil Éireann Debate
Vol. 763 No. 3

Page of 405
375. Deputy Michael Healy-Rae asked the Minister for Social Protection when will the new card for social welfare recipients be used, that is, the biometric card [21727/12]

Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Joan Burton): I presume the Deputy is referring to the Public Services Card (PSC) which is being introduced to act as a key for access to public services in general, identifying and authenticating individuals as appropriate and where required. The card will provide public service providers with verification of an individual’s identity thus reducing the resources currently required to do so each time a member of the public tries to access a public service while at the same time making it harder for people to use false identities.

PSCs are issued following a robust registration process and incorporate identification features including a photograph and an electronic signature. The Department has been piloting the registration processes and ICT systems at three of its offices. This exercise started in July in Tullamore and was subsequently extended to Dublin (Kings Inn) and Sligo. The PSC issue facility was put into production at the beginning of October. Nearly 7,000 PSCs have been issued to date. These cards are available to be used by many public service bodies including the Department of Social Protection. For instance the cards issued can be used to collect social welfare payments at post offices.

In addition to establishing that the processes work in practice and that the supporting ICT systems work correctly, the pilot also aimed to establish the resources needed to deploy registration in Local Offices countrywide. Sanction for additional resources to support this has been received from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and these are currently being sourced and deployed. The pilot has also indicated the need for legislative changes to support the new processes and these have been proposed in the current Social Welfare Bill. The Department is now finalising plans for a national roll-out of the new cards on a phased basis commencing in May of this year.http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/05/01/00205.asp

And info to answer your question re Data Protection and the Department of Social Protection here:http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Data-Protection-in-the-Department-of-Social-Protection.aspx

whydoibother

Thanks to all for your participation in this discussion. So I take it that if this is a trial they choose their guinea pigs randomly nothing to do with race or education.
My other question was more in the sense of how will the cardholder benefit with this not to speak of fraud prevention and having a photo ID etc. as indeed from what I discussed with my friend he had to fill in a SAFE registration where he was asked about his health, his education, etc so my question was is there a helpful plan for us mere mortals will we be better assisted in our search for suitable employment? Is there any benefit for the cardholder at all other than the photo Id and the crackdown on fraud mentioned above?

StillWaters

whydoibother wrote: »

Thanks to all for your participation in this discussion. So I take it that if this is a trial they choose their guinea pigs randomly nothing to do with race or education.
My other question was more in the sense of how will the cardholder benefit with this not to speak of fraud prevention and having a photo ID etc. as indeed from what I discussed with my friend he had to fill in a SAFE registration where he was asked about his health, his education, etc so my question was is there a helpful plan for us mere mortals will we be better assisted in our search for suitable employment? Is there any benefit for the cardholder at all other than the photo Id and the crackdown on fraud mentioned above?

Surely a crackdown on fraud benefits all citizens?

how would you think the introduction of a photo Id assist people in their search for employment? That is not its intention, but if you have an idea in how it can be used as such, please share.

whydoibother

StillWaters wrote: »

Surely a crackdown on fraud benefits all citizens?

how would you think the introduction of a photo Id assist people in their search for employment? That is not its intention, but if you have an idea in how it can be used as such, please share.

Like I said, a crackdown on fraud and having another photo ID are advantages. I thought this was clear from my post. I also thought it was clear that I was not referring to the photo ID per se but to the info the data stored on it and available to the state. It's that data that I was in a silly way wondering could it help the cardholder in (again and I repeat again bar the crackdown on fraud and the photo ID) in any other way? Personally I don't think so.
Again thanks for your comments even from those who don't read everything in its entirety.

kippy

whydoibother wrote: »

Like I said, a crackdown on fraud and having another photo ID are advantages. I thought this was clear from my post. I also thought it was clear that I was not referring to the photo ID per se but to the info the data stored on it and available to the state. It's that data that I was in a silly way wondering could it help the cardholder in (again and I repeat again bar the crackdown on fraud and the photo ID) in any other way? Personally I don't think so.
Again thanks for your comments even from those who don't read everything in its entirety.

How do you expect an ID card to get you a job?
The main purpose is fraud prevention, electronic scanning options and indeed a more integrated grouping of systems down the line.
The info stored on it can be used at some point for a variety of uses.

The new driving license doesn't really help the license holder in anyway apart from being smaller, more durable and potentially more standardised across the continent.

Toto Wolfcastle

I went in last week to register for my new card. I overheard someone say they were doing it by area but I don't know how true that is. They didn't ask me for any information apart from what they needed to prove who I am. It was quick and easy and there were all sorts of people there, Irish and from other countries. It means that I don't have to bring my driving licence with me when I collect my JSB in the Post Office so I'm happy.

rupamede

kippy wrote: »

How do you expect an ID card to get you a job?

The OP never said he or she expected the ID card to get him or her a job, s/he merely wondered if the DATA stored by the state would in any way help people. I believe s/he used employment just as an example and from his/her last post it is clear the OP was trying to find out how this stored data could be of any advantage to the cardholder other than the fraud prevention etc.
I think some people are reading things in a way that just gives them an excuse let off steam instead of coming up with some helpful info although Balagan did provide very informational comments and links. Others though have indirectly insulted the OP (the moron instance, for example). I think these posts should be better moderated in order to avoid harassment. But then maybe that's all part of the idea behind boards.ie? Especially in this age of recession...

kippy

rupamede wrote: »

The OP never said he or she expected the ID card to get him or her a job, s/he merely wondered if the DATA stored by the state would in any way help people. I believe s/he used employment just as an example and from his/her last post it is clear the OP was trying to find out how this stored data could be of any advantage to the cardholder other than the fraud prevention etc.
I think some people are reading things in a way that just gives them an excuse let off steam instead of coming up with some helpful info although Balagan did provide very informational comments and links. Others though have indirectly insulted the OP (the moron instance, for example). I think these posts should be better moderated in order to avoid harassment. But then maybe that's all part of the idea behind boards.ie? Especially in this age of recession...

And the op was given some specific answers on it.
The point is this. The card can be used to prove itentity for a number of purposes and it can be swiped. It wont in itself hold information but it can and most likely will be used as a device connected to back end systems which contain relevent info about you. The card itself wont hold this information for a number of reasons however its existance will speed up access an linkage of the systems in future.
If anyone is letting of steam here it is the op. Originally they thougt a racist or discriminatory element to it, when that was cleared up they have been told numerous times what the card is for and linked to numerous pages on it yet continue to ask but what is in it for me apart from the major initial benefit of fraud prevention.
Does the op not agree with this initiative and why not are the pertinent questions remaining at this point.

Francescoli

At the moment its best use will be fraud prevention and avoiding the need to bring another id to the post office.Down the line it may be used by other agencies like FAS,CWO.
I cant see how anyone could think having a photo ID to claim benefits would be a bad thing and its at least ten years too late.

StillWaters

whydoibother wrote: »

Like I said, a crackdown on fraud and having another photo ID are advantages. I thought this was clear from my post. I also thought it was clear that I was not referring to the photo ID per se but to the info the data stored on it and available to the state. It's that data that I was in a silly way wondering could it help the cardholder in (again and I repeat again bar the crackdown on fraud and the photo ID) in any other way? Personally I don't think so.
Again thanks for your comments even from those who don't read everything in its entirety.

Well I suppose it potentially could. Currently DSP do not profile clients, except in Intreo. With data such as educational achievement and employment sectoral history available, they could potentially alert candidates to suitable courses and opportunitiues.

kippy

StillWaters wrote: »

Well I suppose it potentially could. Currently DSP do not profile clients, except in Intreo. With data such as educational achievement and employment sectoral history available, they could potentially alert candidates to suitable courses and opportunitiues.

Intrea/Ex FAS already do this when it comes to courses I believe, and possibly employment opportunities as well. The point is the card isn't necessarily required for this particular feature.

yabadabado

the plan is for FAS/DSP/CWO to be all the same agency.This has already started with staff movements and the card would be used by them as well.

StillWaters

kippy wrote: »

Intrea/Ex FAS already do this when it comes to courses I believe, and possibly employment opportunities as well. The point is the card isn't necessarily required for this particular feature.

intreo only do it for new claimants. They dont have the data historically. But you are right, the card isnt needed for it. Its just one piece of the planed joined up jigsaw.

riclad

IT will reduce fraud,maybe save service providers money ,time,
therefore save the taxpayer money.
IF someones not living here,it ,ll be very difficult for them to claim ,benefits illegally.
Anyone that has a car has to carry a drivers license any time they are driving.
IS getting the new card a complicated process,
or is it just a matter of filling in a form ,showing id.eg a ten minute interview.?

shockwave

riclad wrote: »

IS getting the new card a complicated process,
or is it just a matter of filling in a form ,showing id.eg a ten minute interview.?

I went in yesterday and the whole process took about 10-15 mins.

No forms to fill out just hand over id, they take your photo and sample of your signature and thats it.

riclad

Does anyone know will new photo ids, be sent out, by an post, eg standard delivery,in the morning,first post.
or by some courier service.
I filled in form, was told in office, it,ll be posted out in the next 5 days.

Toto Wolfcastle

Mine arrived this morning by regular post. It took 5 working days.

Eddie munster

bootybouncer wrote: »

ffs........jesus christ we really are a nation of morons, this is being brought in like it or lump it, fraud has alot to do with it, and about time they did this

Your not a moron? your a sheep cos I didn't accept the new ps card they told me I won't get my dole but I told them I am getting my dole as its my constitutional right after two days of getting the run around finally they give me a new ss card the white one with no pic stand up for your nation your the moron

kippy

Eddie munster wrote: »

Your not a moron? your a sheep cos I didn't accept the new ps card they told me I won't get my dole but I told them I am getting my dole as its my constitutional right after two days of getting the run around finally they give me a new ss card the white one with no pic stand up for your nation your the moron

A constitutional right to 180 odd euro a week? Why are you against such a card? Fraud comes out of your pocket and mine.

whydoibother

Eddie munster wrote: »

Your not a moron? your a sheep cos I didn't accept the new ps card they told me I won't get my dole but I told them I am getting my dole as its my constitutional right after two days of getting the run around finally they give me a new ss card the white one with no pic stand up for your nation your the moron

Very well said thanks at last

Cushie Butterfield

Eddie munster wrote: »

Your not a moron? your a sheep cos I didn't accept the new ps card they told me I won't get my dole but I told them I am getting my dole as its my constitutional right after two days of getting the run around finally they give me a new ss card the white one with no pic stand up for your nation your the moron

Your nation is standing up for you by providing you with social welfare benefits & public services. Is it too much to ask for you to return the favour & co-operate with administrators of these services by taking time out of your day to have your photo taken for the PS card, which will save you time & bother going forward.

If you feel that strongly about standing up for your nation you could consider leading by example instead of making people's job harder:

http://www.military.ie/careers/army
http://www.military.ie/careers/army/apprentices
http://www.military.ie/careers/air-corp
http://www.military.ie/careers/naval-service
http://www.military.ie/overseas
http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=331&Lang=1&PersistList=1&PersistPage=213
http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=165
http://www.civildefence.ie/cdweb.nsf/enquiry?openform

Eddie munster

kippy wrote: »

A constitutional right to 180 odd euro a week? Why are you against such a card? Fraud comes out of your pocket and mine.

I am against the card because it breaks my human rights, theres two chips in the card and a barr code aswel, I have a passport, if picking up the dole with white card (ss card) you must have photo I'd with you. Its The same thing, next they will try and make it law to have the card with you at all times like it is on main land Europe, and if you don't have your card with you on main Europe you can be locked up for 3 days and nights even if you forget it, then a few more years down the line when people find away of making the cards them selfs so the government will say you must get the chip put in to your body or you won't be able to work or collect dole. In America they have one on trail