A scrum question and penalties

Coburger

Hi, if a team engages in the scrum too early the opposition is given a free kick. If a team is in danger of conceding a penalty try because of collapsing scrums etc, why don't they just engage the scrum early and give the opposition a free kick? Could the ref still penalise your team for engaging early?

Another thing, if a team has a penalty close to the oppositions line and the ref is playing advantage, why don't teams do a Garryowen for it to land behind the try line? If your team catches it then there's a high change of scoring a penalty and if the opposition catches it then you go back for your penalty.

irishbucsfan

If you engage early too many times the referee can penalise you. If you did it on the line like that he'd give a free kick and warn you (considering it would look very suspicious) and then the opposition would just take another scrum. Then you'd be back to square one, except having pissed off the ref.

who_me

On the first - given the free kick the opposition can opt for a scrum. For repeated infringements, the referee can start awarding penalties, and ultimately cards.

On the second question - it's probably a better option than going for the drop goal! On the other hand, many refs now give advantage over as soon as there's a scoring chance, so you might not get the option of coming back for the penalty. In that case, you're better off either taking the penalty or not going for the 50/50 garryowen option.

awec

The risk of the Garryowen I guess is losing your advantage?

Hype710

The second question is something I've often wondered myself. I don't know what the directive is because some refs call advantage over whereas I think the majority will come back for the penalty if the try is not scored. To be honest I think it's a good tactic regardless of whether you have penalty advantage; it can cause all kinds of mayhem and you've a good chance of something coming from it.

Coburger

awec wrote: »

The risk of the Garryowen I guess is losing your advantage?

Perhaps. Does anyone know if there has ever been a cross field kick behind the try line which was not successful with the ref not going back for the original penalty?

pickarooney

Can the ref call advantage over with the ball in the air?

irishbucsfan

You should get the penalty. If it was an advantage to scrum then maybe not.

Plenty of teams will try a low percentage play like a grabber or chip when they have penalty advantage. Others will try a drop goal, which makes sense some times but others is a bit perplexing.

locum-motion

If a team has a penalty advantage inside their oppositions 22, then the ref shouldn't declare the advantage over until there's a score on the board.

who_me

pickarooney wrote: »

Can the ref call advantage over with the ball in the air?

For knock-on advantage, they often do; but for a penalty advantage you're right; it's much less likely that the ref could call it. I can't imagine a referee calling advantage over with the ball in flight in that situation, though I could see him considering it over when it lands and a potential scoring attempt was fluffed.

Which raises another question in my mind - does the ref HAVE TO call advantage over, in order to rule it to be over?

who_me

locum-motion wrote: »

If a team has a penalty advantage inside their oppositions 22, then the ref shouldn't declare the advantage over until there's a score on the board.

That's not how it's always refereed though, many refs consider 'a scoring opportunity created' to be an advantage gained, and over.

locum-motion

who_me wrote: »

That's not how it's always refereed though, many refs consider 'a scoring opportunity created' to be an advantage gained, and over.

Sorry, I should have properly attributed my previous comment; it was told to me (and a roomful of other refs) in the early noughties by Andre Watson, widely regarded as the world's top referee and the only man to have reffed two RWC finals. As far as I'm concerned, if it's good enough for him, it should be good enough for every ref.

Clareman

For a knock on, advantage is usually over once a team has gained "clean" possession of the ball, this might be just passing it along the line or not, refs will usually deem a kick as clean possession and deem it advantage over.

For a full penalty, a team should improve their position before advantage will be over, each ref will have a different take on what that will be but I think there was a direction given for it to be up to the ref to decide when advantage was over rather than the team, i.e. George Gregan's intentionally knocking on wasn't liked.

Personally, I always tend to remember that there are no rules in rugby, there are laws which are up to the ref's interpretation as to when advantage will be over, I for 1 wouldn't be risking a knock on or something if there was a full on penalty available. For the drop goal, I see this as a shot to nothing, if it goes over it's the as the penalty, it'll also allow the kicker gauge the wind in case it does miss.

nomunnnofun

locum-motion wrote: »

If a team has a penalty advantage inside their oppositions 22, then the ref shouldn't declare the advantage over until there's a score on the board.

I think that's a bit too broad a statement. What if the penalty is for an infringement just inside the 22 and a yard from the sideline. There is a higher probability of a penalty kick being missed from there than scored so I think if the team gets within touching distance (5 metres ) of the try-line and have clean posession of ball that is advantage over. I once played a match where the opposition had penalty advantage in our 22. Their winger crossed the try line and was running around under the posts with the ball in 1 hand when he dropped it forward. The ref brought play back for the penalty.:mad: I had a very polite conversation with him about this. He asked me if I wanted his whistle and I offered him a suggestion where he should put his whistle. 10 minutes does wonders to calm you down.:)

who_me

locum-motion wrote: »

Sorry, I should have properly attributed my previous comment; it was told to me (and a roomful of other refs) in the early noughties by Andre Watson, widely regarded as the world's top referee and the only man to have reffed two RWC finals. As far as I'm concerned, if it's good enough for him, it ahould be good enough for every ref.

Interesting! But nevertheless, I have seen refs award advantage over when a scoring opportunity is created and not wait for a score. (Can't remember the last incidence of it, but IIRC Owens was the ref). Consistency would be good.

Neil3030

nomunnnofun wrote: »

I think that's a bit too broad a statement. What if the penalty is for an infringement just inside the 22 and a yard from the sideline. There is a higher probability of a penalty kick being missed from there than scored so I think if the team gets within touching distance (5 metres ) of the try-line and have clean posession of ball that is advantage over. I once played a match where the opposition had penalty advantage in our 22. Their winger crossed the try line and was running around under the posts with the ball in 1 hand when he dropped it forward. The ref brought play back for the penalty.:mad: I had a very polite conversation with him about this. He asked me if I wanted his whistle and I offered him a suggestion where he should put his whistle. 10 minutes does wonders to calm you down.:)

Wait, am I reading this correctly? You got sin-binned for presumably suggesting the ref should put the whistle back in his pocket in case it got muddy?

[Jackass]

For a penalty advantage, it will remain unless a try scoring opportunity arises. So if you do a up and under or grubber quick through and it's not competed, then it will just come straight back, if you do the same and there's a very clear opportunity of a try (such as a lone player chasing a grubber unchallenged) then the ref can call advantage over. The problem with it though is that like most laws in rugby, different refs will enforce laws differently.

For example, the penalty try from a scrum, I am of the opinion that this should only be awarded under extreme circumstances and that is if a scrum is going backwards (or a maul) from 5 metres and is pulled down / collapsed in order to stop it from going over the line. That is a penalty try.

HOWEVER, what we often see happening is that a scrum is collapsing on engage, multiple times on some occasions, and the ref will then go under the sticks for a penalty try. That is a yellow card offence IF the referee can determine that the defensive side is deliberately collapsing the scrum, as a professional foul, which is not often the case.

In theory, a penalty should be continuosly awarded to the attacking team until such time that a player is sin binned, and if it continues, purposely collapsing the scrum, then the replacement prop should be sinbinned also and then we go to uncontested scrums.

At no point is the collapsing of a scrum worthy of a penalty try, UNLESS the scrum is being driven OVER the line, and thereby preventing a CERTAIN try. i.e. a penalty try. - collapsing on engage to prevent the opportunity of the opposition driving you over the line or releasing the ball from the scrum is not a CERTAIN try scoring opportunity and is a yellow card only.

pickarooney

Apart from anything else, a penalty try is such an anti-climax for the spectators. I know it's a professional game and everything but I absolutely hate seeing penalty tries given.

Podge_irl

[Jackass] wrote: »

At no point is the collapsing of a scrum worthy of a penalty try, UNLESS the scrum is being driven OVER the line, and thereby preventing a CERTAIN try. i.e. a penalty try. - collapsing on engage to prevent the opportunity of the opposition driving you over the line or releasing the ball from the scrum is not a CERTAIN try scoring opportunity and is a yellow card only.

Its "probable" try rather than certain try in the laws (seeing as you can't ever be certain it would have been scored I guess).

Losty Dublin

[QUOTE='[Jackass]

At no point is the collapsing of a scrum worthy of a penalty try, UNLESS the scrum is being driven OVER the line, and thereby preventing a CERTAIN try. i.e. a penalty try. - collapsing on engage to prevent the opportunity of the opposition driving you over the line or releasing the ball from the scrum is not a CERTAIN try scoring opportunity and is a yellow card only.[/QUOTE]

To point out something relevant to junior/schools/youths rugby; as a drive beyond 1.5 metres or a wheel are not allowed , there is zero chance of a scrum being driven back or wheeled into a position where a try scoring chance is probable. With this in mind, the likelihood of a penalty try coming from a set scrum at most levels is almost totally unlikely in todays junior game, which is what most of us here will coach or play at.