Beware – BMW Premium Selection Warranty cop out.

Joemagic

When my second privately purchased and aged 5 Series was in need of replacement, as a sixtieth birthday present to myself I decide to go the main dealer route for number three, largely attracted by an advertising campaign offering ‘a two year extended warranty’. After 18 months, I started to get regular low battery charge warnings, frequently having to reset the clock, etc. The main dealer who supplied the car diagnosed that the battery needed to be replaced but refused to do it under warranty as they concluded that the battery failure was occurring because my 'driving style' involved too many short journeys and was not because of there was any inherent problem with the battery. And to add insult to injury, I was required to pay €85 for the diagnostic as the issue was found to be a non warranty matter.

This was a shock. The following is a direct quote from their website and almost identical wording appears in the glossy brochure extolling the benefits of buying ‘premium selection’ used cars.

"BMW Premium Selection Warranty - The finest of its kind
We believe that the minimum 12-month Warranty covering your BMW Premium Selection Car is the finest and most extensive of its type available.
Designed to protect your investment and reduce your cost of ownership, the BMW Warranty even guarantees your vehicle's battery and exhaust system for 12 months.”

I appealed the decision to BMW Ireland Customer Service on the grounds that my driving was normal for an urban environment and that the warranty emphasised the inclusion of battery coverage without any qualifications relating to how the car was being used. In their response BMW chose to sidestep the driving style issue completely and rejected my claim by stating that while the car has a two year warranty, the battery an exhaust system are only covered for 12 months. In other words the extension of the 12 months of the first paragraph to 24 months does not apply to the second paragraph - pure chicanery!

I am very disappointed and dissatisfied with the much lauded BMW Customer Service and I am determined to pursue the matter Does anybody out there have any precedent I might use or any advice on how I should proceed. Is a complaint to the National Consumer Agency likely to be of any benefit?. My preference is to pay for a replacement via a main dealer in order not to put the remaining 6 months warranty at risk and to file a claim with the “Small Claims Court. Any advice would be appreciated.

fasttalkerchat

Does the literature advertising 24 months clearly state the battery and exhaust exclusions?

What is the relationship between BMW Ireland and BMW? Is it a franchise style link or a direct sub-division?

challengemaster

Joemagic wrote: »

The main dealer who supplied the car diagnosed that the battery needed to be replaced but refused to do it under warranty as they concluded that the battery failure was occurring because my 'driving style' involved too many short journeys and was not because of there was any inherent problem with the battery.

Well, they're not wrong like.

Usually a battery will last 5-7 years. A 12 month warranty on one is adding more words to their brochure so it looks better. That you managed to kill one in 18 months is impressive.

Look at your warranty documentation closer before doing anything else. If the battery is covered, does it give any circumstances in which it's not covered?

Voodoomelon

Sigh, is this really worth your effort? I'm not saying roll over, but jesus I wouldn't have the nerve to go back to a main dealer after 18 months on an already second hand car and demand a new battery for free.

Its a bleeding battery, its a consumable, buy a new one for god sake.

fasttalkerchat

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Sigh, is this really worth your effort? I'm not saying roll over, but jesus I wouldn't have the nerve to go back to a main dealer after 18 months on an already second hand car and demand a new battery for free.

Its a bleeding battery, its a consumable, buy a new one for god sake.

Ah I missed that it was a used car. So it is possible that a battery could die.
Taking this in mind it is to be expected that you might have to replace a battery.

The one issue is that it looks (from the OP) that they implied they would cover it in a warranty... you would have chosen them over another dealership/brand because of this warranty.

Anan1

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Sigh, is this really worth your effort? I'm not saying roll over, but jesus I wouldn't have the nerve to go back to a main dealer after 18 months on an already second hand car and demand a new battery for free.

Its a bleeding battery, its a consumable, buy a new one for god sake.

IMO this is entirely irrelevant. Either it's covered or it isn't, OP needs to go through the fine print of their policy document to find out which. FWIW, i've generally found BMW customer service to be poor enough.

Gumbo

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Sigh, is this really worth your effort? I'm not saying roll over, but jesus I wouldn't have the nerve to go back to a main dealer after 18 months on an already second hand car and demand a new battery for free.

Its a bleeding battery, its a consumable, buy a new one for god sake.

It will make no difference, the problem will come back. It's from lack of use. OP, what mileage do you do on a daily basis and what kind of roads.

My mams 09 has this issue too, as she only drives a few k everyday but once you hit the motorway it resets and sorts itself out. Her 09 only has 22k km on it!

listermint

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Sigh, is this really worth your effort? I'm not saying roll over, but jesus I wouldn't have the nerve to go back to a main dealer after 18 months on an already second hand car and demand a new battery for free.

Its a bleeding battery, its a consumable, buy a new one for god sake.

Depending on the model that batteries can be as much as 170 Euro.

So to be fair if it states that it was covered then its fair enough to attempt to chase it.

Bigcheeze

Anan1 wrote: »

IMO this is entirely irrelevant. Either it's covered or it isn't, OP needs to go through the fine print of their policy document to find out which. FWIW, i've generally found BMW customer service to be poor enough.

Exactly, it's not like he was given a free 24 month warranty. It's reflected in the higher price he would have paid for the car fr4om a main dealer.


OP before going the small claims route, I would write back to BMW Ireland one more time, saying it was not made clear to you that the 24 month warranty had different conditions attached; it was sold to you merely as a longer warranty. Effectively you were missold a longer warranty.

_Kaiser_

kceire wrote: »

My mams 09 has this issue too, as she only drives a few k everyday but once you hit the motorway it resets and sorts itself out. Her 09 only has 22k km on it!

Assuming it's a diesel, that is why I dread buying a 2nd hand car in a few years. Who knows what other issues (besides a dying battery) await the next owner?

Diesels are meant to be driven but the whole "cheap tax" thing means there'll be a LOT of post-08 cars with expensive problems around.

listermint

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Assuming it's a diesel, that is why I dread buying a 2nd hand car in a few years. Who knows what other issues (besides a dying battery) await the next owner?

Diesels are meant to be driven but the whole "cheap tax" thing means there'll be a LOT of post-08 cars with expensive problems around.

Yep!

And the average joe hasnt a clue. To busy telling their neighbours about the new diesel they bought which has great tax.

530is all round.

mickdw

I liked the idea of the 2 year warranty from bmw. Sure they are charging inflated prices but I would consider a proper 2 year warranty with bmw to be worth alot of money specially if talking bi turbos or m cars. Personally I think its reasonable to have items such as battery on a reduced cover as they are consumables. If however this is not clear in the warranty info, then that is poor form from bmw.
I dont agree with the argument re lack of use. A car that is being driven more than simply starting it and turning it off should keep itself charged specially with the highly technical advanced charging that bmw have which supposedly matches charging to battery condition etc.

First thing to do is find out exact wording of warranty documents.

alexmcred

When I purchased my new one series last year the battery issue was specifically mentioned. It is an issue in cars not driven enough.

godtabh

12 month warranty for battery. OP has car 18 months.

Clear as day that BMW wont cover it. No scam here

mickdw

alexmcred wrote: »

When I purchased my new one series last year the battery issue was specifically mentioned. It is an issue in cars not driven enough.

So bmw have an issue more than other brands if thry are actually advising new Car buyers that battery can have issues.

Anan1

godtabh wrote: »

12 month warranty for battery. OP has car 18 months.

Clear as day that BMW wont cover it. No scam here

I think you need to reread the OP's first post. And the OP needs to read their warranty document.

alexmcred

mickdw wrote: »

So bmw have an issue more than other brands if thry are actually advising new Car buyers that battery can have issues.

Yes the battery can have issues if not driven enough tbh imo I'd say other manufactures could end up with this issue due to the stop start systems that are now being installed on cars.

Bigcheeze

alexmcred wrote: »

Yes the battery can have issues if not driven enough tbh imo I'd say other manufactures could end up with this issue due to the stop start systems that are now being installed on cars.

Do they define "enough" ?

alexmcred

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Do they define "enough" ?

They just say that if your frequently doing very short runs you can run into issues. Looks like batteries are the same a DPF's in that they need regular long runs

galwaytt

mickdw wrote: »

I dont agree with the argument re lack of use. A car that is being driven more than simply starting it and turning it off should keep itself charged specially with the highly technical advanced charging that bmw have which supposedly matches charging to battery condition etc.

First thing to do is find out exact wording of warranty documents.

This ^^.

The statement the OP needs to have this phrase in his conversation 'fit for purpose'. If BMW are saying that their car is not suitable for short-hop driving, then let them show you where that is mentioned in their (warranty) literature.

I know it's easy to say 'it's only a battery FFS' - but the point is that this may not be a one-off, and for the OP, the thought that he'll be having this conversation again in 18 months time again will come to pass - and he'll definately have no warranty then.

galwaytt

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Sigh, is this really worth your effort? I'm not saying roll over, but jesus I wouldn't have the nerve to go back to a main dealer after 18 months on an already second hand car and demand a new battery for free.

Its a bleeding battery, its a consumable, buy a new one for god sake.

Yes it is a consumable - but not an every-18-month consumable. If the battery itself can have a 5yr warranty (Bosch S5 for example), then BMW need to explain why their car can't match even half that imho. Looks like this issue is a BMW one, not a battery one.

Joemagic

Thanks for the comments folks. To answer a few of the points raised.

The warranty is provided by BMW Ireland. If the dealer does any work under the warranty, he is reimbursed by BMW.

The warranty is usually for one year on 'premium' used cars but was extended to two years during a special sales promotion, hence the references to 12 months in the extract from the website/brochure.There was no detailed warranty document provided, just a one page 'certificate'.

I agree that under normal circumstances, battery and exhaust would not be included in a used car warranty. BMW themselves emphasise their inclusion as a special feature of the warranty. It is unequivocal -there is no get out clause relating to how the car is being used or no limitation to say that if the warranty is extended, that the battery cover is restricted to the first 12 months.

The point is that while I was sold a car with an 'extended' two year warranty BMW are using wording which was clearly drafted to describe the 'standard' 12 month warranty to conclude that the battery is covered only for the first 12 months of the extended two year warranty. They are interpreting the wording to their own advantage, an interpretation which is, in my view, unjust. Surely the normal 'man in the street' would interpret the quoted text in my original post to mean that if the 12 month warranty being described in the text is extended to 24 months, the extension would apply to all elements covered under the warranty. It is interesting also that while the dealer used the driving style argument to refuse a replacement battery, BMW seem to have recognised the nonsense of this and have dropped that part of of the argument.

Quotes for the replacement battery from the main dealers are from €350 upwards. They explain this is because it is an AGM battery specially designed for cars with heavy electrical loads and/or auto stop start facility (which my car doesn't have). Plus €65 charge for fitting - "has to be done by a main dealer as the battery has to be 'registered' with the cars ECU" according to the dealer. A total cost of over €400, that's why I am determined to pursue BMW.

For info, the car is an 08 diesel which I got to replace a 9 year old 525i which never gave a days bother in the five years I owned it, with exactly the same driving pattern. The CO2 tax regime was a major influence in my decision to change. Diesel owners beware!.

Finally, does anybody have any experience of going the Small Claims Court route and any tips about best way to ensure a positive result.
(Bigcheeze - I have written to BMW three times, making the points you raised but they will not be budged)

Thanks
]oe

Stallingrad

Joemagic wrote: »

Quotes for the replacement battery from the main dealers are from €350 upwards. They explain this is because it is an AGM battery specially designed for cars with heavy electrical loads and/or auto stop start facility (which my car doesn't have). Plus €65 charge for fitting - "has to be done by a main dealer as the battery has to be 'registered' with the cars ECU" according to the dealer. A total cost of over €400, that's why I am determined to pursue BMW.

Mother of God, what a scam. Do yourself a favour and contact Nissan Doctor.

listermint

Joemagic wrote: »

Thanks for the comments folks. To answer a few of the points raised.

The warranty is provided by BMW Ireland. If the dealer does any work under the warranty, he is reimbursed by BMW.

The warranty is usually for one year on 'premium' used cars but was extended to two years during a special sales promotion, hence the references to 12 months in the extract from the website/brochure.There was no detailed warranty document provided, just a one page 'certificate'.

I agree that under normal circumstances, battery and exhaust would not be included in a used car warranty. BMW themselves emphasise their inclusion as a special feature of the warranty. It is unequivocal -there is no get out clause relating to how the car is being used or no limitation to say that if the warranty is extended, that the battery cover is restricted to the first 12 months.

The point is that while I was sold a car with an 'extended' two year warranty BMW are using wording which was clearly drafted to describe the 'standard' 12 month warranty to conclude that the battery is covered only for the first 12 months of the extended two year warranty. They are interpreting the wording to their own advantage, an interpretation which is, in my view, unjust. Surely the normal 'man in the street' would interpret the quoted text in my original post to mean that if the 12 month warranty being described in the text is extended to 24 months, the extension would apply to all elements covered under the warranty. It is interesting also that while the dealer used the driving style argument to refuse a replacement battery, BMW seem to have recognised the nonsense of this and have dropped that part of of the argument.

Quotes for the replacement battery from the main dealers are from €350 upwards. They explain this is because it is an AGM battery specially designed for cars with heavy electrical loads and/or auto stop start facility (which my car doesn't have). Plus €65 charge for fitting - "has to be done by a main dealer as the battery has to be 'registered' with the cars ECU" according to the dealer. A total cost of over €400, that's why I am determined to pursue BMW.

For info, the car is an 08 diesel which I got to replace a 9 year old 525i which never gave a days bother in the five years I owned it, with exactly the same driving pattern. The CO2 tax regime was a major influence in my decision to change. Diesel owners beware!.

Finally, does anybody have any experience of going the Small Claims Court route and any tips about best way to ensure a positive result.
(Bigcheeze - I have written to BMW three times, making the points you raised but they will not be budged)

Thanks
]oe

Well one thing that should come out of this, Whoever told you or suggested that you buy a diesel for the driving you do. Go find them and slap them hard.

Battery issues aside. A diesel makes no financial sense what so ever.

quad_red

Joemagic wrote: »

Quotes for the replacement battery from the main dealers are from €350 upwards. They explain this is because it is an AGM battery specially designed for cars with heavy electrical loads and/or auto stop start facility (which my car doesn't have). Plus €65 charge for fitting - "has to be done by a main dealer as the battery has to be 'registered' with the cars ECU" according to the dealer. A total cost of over €400, that's why I am determined to pursue BMW.

pajo1981

Let me guess, you car is a stop-start model?

Had the exact same issue with my own after 24 months. It's common enough if you're doing a lot of urban driving for the AGM batteries not to last so long.

You can pick up a high capacity decent-brand AGM battery from these guys and install it yourself for a couple of hundred quid:

http://www.europower.ie/Automotive.htm#running

But you're right, BMW dealers are robbing tossers.

edit: you need to register the new battery to reset the charge programme, other wise you run the risk of overcharging your new battery. An indy specialist should do this for you for pocket change - 5 minute job.

Sorry dude didn't read the last post. If your car's not stop-start then you don't need an AGM battery.

Stallingrad

In bumper to bumper traffic I leave my Start/Stop off, I hate it cutting and out all the time. I tend to use it most at traffic lights where you wont be moving for a few minutes.

Anan1

Stallingrad wrote: »

Mother of God, what a scam. Do yourself a favour and contact Nissan Doctor.

OP feels that the battery is covered under the terms of the warranty..

Eric Cartman

An indy mechanic can replace the battery no bother and cheaper than that.

Also its an 08 car , so the battery in it now would be approaching / just over 5 years old, its due an end of life replacement , if the battery was 12 -18 months old id understand but its 5 years old, if you brought the car to bmw for a service they probably would change it for you anyway,

Bigcheeze

Joemagic wrote: »

Finally, does anybody have any experience of going the Small Claims Court route and any tips about best way to ensure a positive result.
(Bigcheeze - I have written to BMW three times, making the points you raised but they will not be budged)

Thanks
]oe

I think there's a good chance that if you send them a final notice in advance of legal action and then start the claims process 7 days later, there is a high probability they will sort this before you ever have to go to the small claims court. It'll cost them a lot more money to send legal representation to the court.

GavMan

For 400 quid, I'd chance my arm with the Small claims court give the ambiguity of the warranty text.

Chances are that once BMW get the summons, they'll give in and replace it or meet you half way. Or better yet, they wont turn up and it'll be an automatic win for you.

Even if you lose, it's only 20/30 quid you've lost

Stallingrad

LIGHTNING wrote: »

But isn't that what it was designed for?

Of course, but I weigh that up against the wear and tear V the small amount of petrol being saved. Luckily I don't spend much time in traffic either.

At lights though it is great, it always impresses passengers.

Joemagic

pajo1981 wrote: »

Let me guess, you car is a stop-start model?

Had the exact same issue with my own after 24 months. It's common enough if you're doing a lot of urban driving for the AGM batteries not to last so long.

You can pick up a high capacity decent-brand AGM battery from these guys and install it yourself for a couple of hundred quid:

http://www.europower.ie/Automotive.htm#running

But you're right, BMW dealers are robbing tossers.

edit: you need to register the new battery to reset the charge programme, other wise you run the risk of overcharging your new battery. An indy specialist should do this for you for pocket change - 5 minute job.

Sorry dude didn't read the last post. If your car's not stop-start then you don't need an AGM battery.

AGM batteries are designed for stop start systems which is exactly what urban driving entails ie short journeys with lots of stop and starts. Introduce auto stop start into that scenario and you have a recipe for disaster on your hands. I would advise anybody who has it to switch it off. It seems very unlikely the saving in fuel will offset the exorbitant cost of having to replace one of these expensive AGM batteries within much less than 5 years.

There is five months warranty remaining on the car. Based on my experience with BMW on this issue, if I go the non main dealer route to replace the battery and have any subsequent issues with the car, I am sure that BMW will use this as an excuse to refuse any future warranty claim.

Joemagic

Bigcheeze wrote: »

I think there's a good chance that if you send them a final notice in advance of legal action and then start the claims process 7 days later, there is a high probability they will sort this before you ever have to go to the small claims court. It'll cost them a lot more money to send legal representation to the court.

Thanks Bigcheeze will give that a shot

Voodoomelon

mickdw wrote: »

I dont agree with the argument re lack of use. A car that is being driven more than simply starting it and turning it off should keep itself charged specially with the highly technical advanced charging that bmw have which supposedly matches charging to battery condition etc.

From what i've read, and what i've experienced myself, a car during winter time (with more accessories turned on) will barely sufficiently restore the charge lost from starting the car and running accessories, even over 5 miles, let alone give the battery a supplemental charge. The battery is no doubt well sulphated at this stage.

galwaytt wrote: »

Yes it is a consumable - but not an every-18-month consumable. If the battery itself can have a 5yr warranty (Bosch S5 for example), then BMW need to explain why their car can't match even half that imho. Looks like this issue is a BMW one, not a battery one.

But its 5 years old now. The OP also doesn't have to go to BMW to pay their extortionate prices.

But yes he needs to check the fine print of his warranty.

ballinloughan

Had a 2004 x5 bought from main dealer in 2008 with at the time a 12 month premium select warranty. Battery died after apprx 6 month. Called BMW, they collected the car, dropped off a loaner car and returned the x5 the next day.... no issue.

Nissan doctor

Stallingrad wrote: »

Mother of God, what a scam. Do yourself a favour and contact Nissan Doctor.

If the car does have an AGM battery then they are not cheap, but they are available aftermarket from several OE suppliers like Bosch etc.

As for programming the electrical management system afterwards, any garage with the correct up to date diagnostic equipment can do that and reset all the electrical systems(windows, sunroof etc)

George Dalton

Nissan doctor wrote: »

As for programming the electrical management system afterwards, any garage with the correct up to date diagnostic equipment can do that and reset all the electrical systems(windows, sunroof etc)

You need to be careful with these, E60s need the battery to be registered after fitting or else the low battery warning may come back after a short time and/or the battery life may be shortened. Not many aftermarket tools can do this. We can't do it despite having several diagnostic tools at our disposal, I have had to send a few people to a guy in Kilkenny who has Autologic to have the battery registered after changing.

Nissan doctor

George Dalton wrote: »

You need to be careful with these, E60s need the battery to be registered after fitting or else the low battery warning may come back after a short time and/or the battery life may be shortened. Not many aftermarket tools can do this. We can't do it despite having several diagnostic tools at our disposal, I have had to send a few people to a guy in Kilkenny who has Autologic to have the battery registered after changing.

Just did one today on an E60:). Our Delphi unit can do it, Although only since its latest update.

mickdw

Having read the OPs response stating that bmw extended a 1 year offering (with full battery cover) to a 2 year offering due to a promotion, Im pretty sure bmw dont have a leg to stand on.
Op should seek the relevant documentation from bmw stating that the battery is excluded for the second year (if it exists). If this cannot be produced in the form of a warranty document, then small claims court is without a doubt the way to go.

Del2005

mickdw wrote: »

Having read the OPs response stating that bmw extended a 1 year offering (with full battery cover) to a 2 year offering due to a promotion, Im pretty sure bmw dont have a leg to stand on.
Op should seek the relevant documentation from bmw stating that the battery is excluded for the second year (if it exists). If this cannot be produced in the form of a warranty document, then small claims court is without a doubt the way to go.

Since the OP never got any documentation when they got the car, BMW can easily produce a "warranty" document excluding batteries after one year. Only chance they have is finding someone who got the warranty document around the same time.

OP, what mileage are you doing daily? A diesel engine in winter needs a lot of driving to fully recharge the battery, if you're only using it for short runs then your going to be putting more batteries into it.

galwaytt

ballinloughan wrote: »

Had a 2004 x5 bought from main dealer in 2008 with at the time a 12 month premium select warranty. Battery died after apprx 6 month. Called BMW, they collected the car, dropped off a loaner car and returned the x5 the next day.... no issue.

I think OP should exchange details if you're haooy to be quoted as precedent. ...

mickdw

galwaytt wrote: »

I think OP should exchange details if you're haooy to be quoted as precedent. ...

But that was within the first 12 months. BMW are in agreement with this.

galwaytt

Voodoomelon wrote: »

But its 5 years old now. The OP also doesn't have to go to BMW to pay their extortionate prices.

But yes he needs to check the fine print of his warranty.

Actually. ...we don't know the battery's age at all.....maybe it's not this car's first ?

mickdw

Del2005 wrote: »

Since the OP never got any documentation when they got the car, BMW can easily produce a "warranty" document excluding batteries after one year. Only chance they have is finding someone who got the warranty document around the same time.

The terms of that warranty are surely 'public' at this stage even if the OP didnt get a copy. I dont see that BMW Ireland (who I believe are only a branch of UK) could just go introducing this condition if it was genuinely not present. Sure they might put it in a letter as they can always say they believed this to be the case but they would not go producing a fraudulent warranty document if only due to fear of being found out.

bmstuff

Just get a new battery OP for 150 euros and I will register it for you for free
Dont lose your sleep over it, not worth it.

Del2005

mickdw wrote: »

The terms of that warranty are surely 'public' at this stage even if the OP didnt get a copy. I dont see that BMW Ireland (who I believe are only a branch of UK) could just go introducing this condition if it was genuinely not present. Sure they might put it in a letter as they can always say they believed this to be the case but they would not go producing a fraudulent warranty document if only due to fear of being found out.

The only reference I can find is on BeepBeep.

Unlimited mileage warranty
BMW Premium Selection Approved Used Car Warranty ensures total protection against breakdown and repair costs. Only routine service items are not covered, such as tyres, brake pads and discs, or items other items requiring replacement due to normal wear and tear or age.

BMW Premium Selection Approved Used Car Warranty covers you for unlimited mileage during the period of cover.

Minimum 2 years warranty cover provided at participating BMW dealers.

This seems to cover them for a battery after 18 months.