General Marathon advice...

OneColdHand

I'm looking for some advice from the knowledgable folks around here.

(apologies for using kilometers, I know some folks think in miles!)

I'm looking to run a marathon in 3 months time (May 5th, Toronto Marathon). I want to run it in sub 4 hours, and I would like to assess my training so far to see how likely I am to achieve this.

My background:
I'm a 31yo male. Been jogging/running since 2010. But it's been VERY stop start since then, and I've rarely managed to put together more than 2 or 3 months training, before not doing much for a few weeks (for a variety of reasons, but generally not due to injury), and almost going back to square one. I did do a good few IMRA runs, and really enjoyed them, but treated all of them as essentially training runs. The only race of any description I've targeted was the Dublin Mountain Plod (21k) and did it in 2:07. I was pretty happy with that time, despite running out of steam badly with about a kilometer to go!

I should note that I have actually done the Dublin Marathon, in 2004. So I was 23. I did it will a very poor training schedule, but managed to get around in 4:01 (hence wanting to break 4 hours now!!). But between 2004 and starting running again in 2010, I essentially did no running. That was so long ago that I don't think it counts for much, apart from understanding how tough the last 8 miles are!

Recent running:
Managed to run on and off throughout 2012, but due to injury, weather and other issues, have only been training consistently since the start of November. So I have 3 months training under the belt, and I have 3 months until marathon (a good time to stop and take stock!!).

So I have been building up both my weekly mileage and LSRs since Nov. Last week I did 44km total, and on Sunday (yesterday) I did a 20km run (my longest LSR is 22km, the week before that). Most of my LSRs I have taken pretty easy, but I injected a bit of pace yesterday, just to test myself. The 20km took 1:50:40 (5:32/km). I was pretty happy with that to be honest, as I think I'm right in saying that to get around marathon distance in 3:59, I need to target ~5:40kms.

I should note that I'm getting out 3 times during the week (so 4 runs a week total). These runs have been a bit of a mixed bag, and probably don't have much structure. Most of them have been at a fairly easy pace, some of them have been tempo runs, and some have been fast (for me!) paced runs.

So any opinions? What are my chances of getting around the full distance in less that 4 hours?! Should I be looking to increase my pace, or should I just focus on the long runs? What should be the minimum weekly total I should aim to be getting to?

Thanks!

Clearlier

You really need to follow a proper plan!

Get a copy of 'Advanced Marathoning' by Pfitzinger and Douglas ASAP.

Read the book and at the back you'll find a 12 week schedule going up to 55mpw starting at about 30mpw. Follow the schedule as closely as you can but don't be afraid to drop a mile or two off the midweek runs as you ease your way into the schedule.

If you successfully follow the plan I'll eat my hat if you don't complete your marathon in under 4 hours.

ThePiedPiper

OneColdHand,

You're doing all the right things at the moment, a few long runs, a bit of faster pace and easy recovery runs as well. Some sort of a plan, as Clearlier said, will lay it out for you, but essentially, what you're doing is fine, and is working well.

The very least you should do though, from a plan point of view, is get it all written down, with a steady progression of long runs, and a proper taper of 2-3 weeks. Four days a week training is fine, if you can push it up to five, it'd be even better. Your weekly mileage should get close to 50 miles/ 80 kms. Ideally, the long runs should get up to 20 miles/32 kms. Give yourself step back weeks, allow yourself to recover properly. If you can find a half marathon to do 5-6 weeks prior to your marathon, it'd give you a real indication of where you are, and let you practice race-day routine.

Best of luck, enjoy the training.

Peterx

mental approach;

Work on training your mind and your habits into thinking the run is the important thing to do that day and attempt (in a small way) to get around to the mindset of fitting your life around your running, as opposed to the other way around.

I realise this is completely over the top but if you can get half way there you will soon find yourself running every day, or 6 days a week and the more running you can do without injury the easier the marathon will be.

All the training plans or fancy spreadsheets in the world will not help if you have other things to do first. Do the run first.

Once again I do realise this is completely unrealistic for many folk but maybe try to get part of the way there.

I may come back and completely edit this post after the coffee has left my system!

ThePiedPiper

Peterx wrote: »

mental approach;

Work on training your mind and your habits into thinking the run is the important thing to do that day and attempt (in a small way) to get around to the mindset of fitting your life around your running, as opposed to the other way around.

I realise this is completely over the top but if you can get half way there you will soon find yourself running every day, or 6 days a week and the more running you can do without injury the easier the marathon will be.

All the training plans or fancy spreadsheets in the world will not help if you have other things to do first. Do the run first.

Once again I do realise this is completely unrealistic for many folk but maybe try to get part of the way there.

I may come back and completely edit this post after the coffee has left my system!

I'm quoting this in case Peterx decides to edit it, because it is a very useful post.

I don't follow marathon plans. I've no book, spreadsheet, or anything written down. But, I know what I need to do in my head.

When I was training for a February marathon in 2011, I got myself out in the snow, ice, freezing fog, onto the threadmill, whatever, and got running.

If the training plan gives you the structure you need to get out there and run 4, 5, or 6 times a week, well and good.

RayCun

+1 on the above
If every day you wake up and wonder if you will go for a run, when you will go for a run, what kind of run you will do... you'll miss runs and miss important runs. You should know at the start of the week when you will run and how far/fast in the coming week.
Sometimes life will get in the way of your plans. If you find life is always getting in the way of your Thursday evening run, change your schedule.

OneColdHand

RunForestRun wrote: »

OneColdHand,

You're doing all the right things at the moment, a few long runs, a bit of faster pace and easy recovery runs as well. Some sort of a plan, as Clearlier said, will lay it out for you, but essentially, what you're doing is fine, and is working well.

The very least you should do though, from a plan point of view, is get it all written down, with a steady progression of long runs, and a proper taper of 2-3 weeks. Four days a week training is fine, if you can push it up to five, it'd be even better. Your weekly mileage should get close to 50 miles/ 80 kms. Ideally, the long runs should get up to 20 miles/32 kms. Give yourself step back weeks, allow yourself to recover properly. If you can find a half marathon to do 5-6 weeks prior to your marathon, it'd give you a real indication of where you are, and let you practice race-day routine.

Best of luck, enjoy the training.

Yeah I did look at a few plans online, but couldn't really find one that suited me.

I actually do have it planned out. At least I have my long runs planned out week-by-week. I will be increasing them by about 3k each week, but then stepping back a little on the 3rd week. I will be building up to at least 4 runs over 32k, and will hopefully 2 of those will be around 35k.

Thanks for the advice.

OneColdHand

Peterx wrote: »

mental approach;

Work on training your mind and your habits into thinking the run is the important thing to do that day and attempt (in a small way) to get around to the mindset of fitting your life around your running, as opposed to the other way around.

I realise this is completely over the top but if you can get half way there you will soon find yourself running every day, or 6 days a week and the more running you can do without injury the easier the marathon will be.

All the training plans or fancy spreadsheets in the world will not help if you have other things to do first. Do the run first.

Once again I do realise this is completely unrealistic for many folk but maybe try to get part of the way there.

I may come back and completely edit this post after the coffee has left my system!

Honestly, I would LOVE nothing more than to be able to fit my life around my running! But as you say it's a bit unrealistic for many, and I'm one of the many! I am quite busy at the minute outside of running.

However, I do have it working quite well at the minute, in that my office has a shower. Also my hours are a bit flexible, so I can take up to a 1.5 hour lunch. So I've been doing my midweek runs at lunch time. I think the regularity of doing my week runs at the same time every day is helpful.

Also I think using the word 'unstructured' to describe my midweek runs might not have been a good idea!! I should clarify, that I always get out for all my midweek runs. I've done 3 midweek runs a week for the last 11 weeks, and haven't missed one run. I was using the word unstructured in that I don't really have much of a plan for these runs, apart from 'mixing it up a bit', ie. varying pace and distance, and also in general clocking up enough miles to hit my weekly target. I suppose this is where following an online plan would help.

I am very determined to get my 4 runs a week in, and while I can't fit my life around the running, it's also not a case of my life dictating my running. The two are working pretty well in tandem at the minute!

OneColdHand

RunForestRun wrote: »

When I was training for a February marathon in 2011, I got myself out in the snow, ice, freezing fog, onto the threadmill, whatever, and got running.

Try living in Canada! I think in the last 7 weeks I might have run twice when it WASN'T below zero. I've run about 4 times when it's been below -20. In the middle of the day.

rom

OP your first post had 12 (I counted) negative comments towards you achieving your goal. You need to think much more positive to realize your goal and then put in the hard work. Lots of people have busy lives but it is about priorities. If it's that important to you then you will make time. I wish you the best in your journey and suggest you set a higher A goal as you said you didn't prepared correctly last time so you are planning to prepare a tiny bit better than your poor preparing that you did the last time ?

OneColdHand

rom wrote: »

OP your first post had 12 (I counted) negative comments towards you achieving your goal. You need to think much more positive to realize your goal and then put in the hard work. Lots of people have busy lives but it is about priorities. If it's that important to you then you will make time. I wish you the best in your journey and suggest you set a higher A goal as you said you didn't prepared correctly last time so you are planning to prepare a tiny bit better than your poor preparing that you did the last time ?

Thanks rom. While it might not have come across this way in my OP, I am actually a very positive thinker. However, I am also a realist. In my OP I wanted to list potential problems that I see. I don't really see these as negative thoughts as such. I think if I can see some potential problems down the line, I might as well try and address them practically now.

However for your sake, I will list a number of positives!

- With 13 weeks to go, I have built my LSRs up to 22k so far
- I have done 20k at 5:32/k, which is at least 8 seconds quicker than my required marathon pace
- I have run 4 times a week every week for the last 11 weeks
- My job allows me to get out for lunchtime runs, meaning I don't have to get up early to run, or try and fit a run in in the evening
- While I don't have every single run planned out, I do have all my long runs planned and I know that if all goes well I should get in 4 runs over 32k
- Despite being injured last summer, and have run consistently for 3 months, I have been completely injury free since October

rom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM_7j6t9IyU

Racman

RayCun wrote: »

+1 on the above
If every day you wake up and wonder if you will go for a run, when you will go for a run, what kind of run you will do... you'll miss runs and miss important runs. You should know at the start of the week when you will run and how far/fast in the coming week.
Sometimes life will get in the way of your plans. If you find life is always getting in the way of your Thursday evening run, change your schedule.

Reminds me of a quote from the late, great, Noel Carroll: "If you are too busy to run.....you are too busy."

Killerz

Hello OneColdHand,

I recently returned to Dublin after living in Toronto for almost 3 years. While there, I did both of the Toronto Marathons (Goodlife and Scotia) twice. I won't give you training advice per se, as there are others here that are far more qualified to do that than I am. However, you can read my accounts of the Toronto Marathon as follows:

3:40 10/1 Pacer in October 2010:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68558838&postcount=149

3:01 in May 2011:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72282288&postcount=203

They have changed the course slightly since I did it, taking out that last uphill at the end, which was awful it must be said. I think they may have ironed out some other small issues i've mentioned in my log too.

Unusually for a marathon, the best course of action for this particular course is to run a positive split (ie a faster first half vs. second half) in order to take advantage of the downhill nature of the first half. If you look at some previous years' results, you will generally see a significant difference in people's first vs. second half.

For training, get plenty of downhill practice in to strengthen your legs (Beltline trail and Moore Park Ravine in Toronto, going west to east are good for this), and beware that there can be a significant wind off lake ontario for the second half (i'm not sure if you're based in toronto or not?).

As for the cold....get yourself a good face mask, hat, and double up gloves and mittens!

Are you signed up for Around the Bay? That is a great one as a build up race.

Best of luck with the training, PM me if you need any more info on the Toronto Marathon - logistics etc.

OneColdHand

hey Killerz, thanks so much for the info!! Just when I think the feedback on boards can't get any better, along comes someone who has run the random marathon I'm talking about!!

I read through your race reports. Hopefully they have improved some of those problems!

I hadn't looked at the route in too much detail, but I had a good look at it tonight. I do 95% of my runs on the lakeshore, between the 27km mark to the finish! Amazing! So I am only too aware of the wind situation! I don't know the east or north of the city too well, so don't know the first half of the route at all unfortunately.

As for the hills, I will have to re-think my pacing I suppose - I had intended just trying to run the race at a steady pace. I'm not too worried though, I feel I will stick with pacers, so I'm sure they will know the best strategy. I live right beside High Park, which is quite hilly, so I can easily incorporate some of those hills into my runs.

I'm getting used to the cold, nothing that 2 pairs of gloves and 2 thermal base layers can't take care of! Actually, bad and all as the cold is, I find the horrible summer humidity way harder to run in.

Unfortunately Around the Bay is sold out, and I'm in New York that weekend anyway.

Thanks again.

Killerz

High Park is great - like a mini Phoenix Park, plenty of nice run routes in there. The Humber trail near you is good too if its not frozen or slushy.

Best of luck with your training. Watch out for the pacers though, some of them do a Run 10 mins/ Walk 1 min strategy (its a RunningRoom thing), so do your research beforehand to ensure there's one for you! Let me know if you have any questions or need to know where any of the routes are.

OneColdHand

Killerz wrote: »

High Park is great - like a mini Phoenix Park, plenty of nice run routes in there. The Humber trail near you is good too if its not frozen or slushy.

Best of luck with your training. Watch out for the pacers though, some of them do a Run 10 mins/ Walk 1 min strategy (its a RunningRoom thing), so do your research beforehand to ensure there's one for you! Let me know if you have any questions or need to know where any of the routes are.

Did you ever get involved with the running room? There's one nearby on Bloor St West, and they do long runs on the Sunday morning. I never went along but often wondered what they were like.

Killerz

OneColdHand wrote: »

Did you ever get involved with the running room? There's one nearby on Bloor St West, and they do long runs on the Sunday morning. I never went along but often wondered what they were like.

No, apart from doing the pacing for the marathon, I never did. Worth a shot I'd say - nothing to lose by doing one of the free sunday runs - maybe call up and check to see what their goal marathon is - they may be running distances that will align with your targets coming up. They'll know the routes etc aswell, and will surely have one or two veterans of the toronto marathon to give you some advice.

OneColdHand

I was checking out the pacers for this race:

3:10 continuous
3:15 continuous
3:30 continuous
3:40 continuous
3:45 continuous

Seems like a bit of an odd spread to me. No 4:00hr pacer. Or 3:00hr pacer for that matter. Does this seem strange to anyone else?

I should add that there is a 4:00hr 10:1 pacer, but I don't think this is much use to me.

ThePiedPiper

The only thing that springs to mind looking at those pace times is Boston qualifications for various age groups. It is odd though not to have a 3 hour and a 4 hour.

Killerz

From what I cold see, Boston qualification is the aim of the game in north america, probably bigger than sub3. They may have a 4 hour pacer, depends if they can get someone. There was a random 3:05 pacer the second time i did it....wasnt announced or anything.

The pacers are organised by Running Room, who are advocates of the 10:1 approach, and thus they will prioritise it where they only have one pacer for a time group.

Having done the 10:1 for 3:40, and been sceptical about the approach beforehand, i was convinced that it does have its merits amd may suit some people. The little 'rests' were nice