lucas fule pump...deisel....

les01

hi to all...
can any one help me i have a citroen berlingo 1.9 deisel van on a 1998 plate
XUD engine.... with a lucas injector pump
im havin trouble starting the van.. cold and warm...
i,v done the norm an changed the glow plugs... an relay
but if i pump the hand primer pump 2 or 3 time it stats with no problem...
is there a self primeing pump on the mane pump or am i barking up the wrong tree....:p
If so who do i find out if this is to blame....???
thanks les01

dgt

Lucas: There's the main problem right there

I'd start with the sender unit in the tank, these can get choked with sludge, making it more difficult to get diesel to the pump. Mech pumps have a Vane-type fuel supply pump built in ie it's driven along with the pump. A pressure control valve sits before the entry, this may be on the way out.

However if I were you, ditch the Lucas EPIC(ly crap) and get a Bosch pump instead

shamwari

les01 wrote: »

hi to all...
can any one help me i have a citroen berlingo 1.9 deisel van on a 1998 plate
XUD engine.... with a lucas injector pump
im havin trouble starting the van.. cold and warm...
i,v done the norm an changed the glow plugs... an relay
but if i pump the hand primer pump 2 or 3 time it stats with no problem...
is there a self primeing pump on the mane pump or am i barking up the wrong tree....:p
If so who do i find out if this is to blame....???
thanks les01

The fact that it starts easier when hand-primed suggests that you have an air leak. It could be around the seal on the fuel filter, one of the fuel unions, or even the primer unit itself. Have a very close look around the pipework for damp spots that smell of diesel.

In this case, the pump would be the last thing I'd condemn. So, you've done the right things by changing the glow plugs. Don't jump to conclusions on the pump just yet!

dgt wrote: »

Lucas: There's the main problem right there

I'd start with the sender unit in the tank, these can get choked with sludge, making it more difficult to get diesel to the pump. Mech pumps have a Vane-type fuel supply pump built in ie it's driven along with the pump. A pressure control valve sits before the entry, this may be on the way out.

However if I were you, ditch the Lucas EPIC(ly crap) and get a Bosch pump instead

AFAIK the XUD non-HDi doesn't have a pump in the tank. The only thing that gave trouble on the Lucas pump was it's cold start advance, however the OP has observed that the car is easier to start if he primes the bulb. That doesn't suggest a pump fault in this instance.

As for changing to a Bosch pump, again I don't think this is straightforward because the keyway and shaft are usually different to Bosch and therefore the drive belt sproket from Lucas won't fit the Bosch. So a new sproket might also be needed and then you have to hope you can time the pump properly with the changed sproket as well.

dgt

shamwari wrote: »

AFAIK the XUD non-HDi doesn't have a pump in the tank. The only thing that gave trouble on the Lucas pump was it's cold start advance, however the OP has observed that the car is easier to start if he primes the bulb. That doesn't suggest a pump fault in this instance.

As for changing to a Bosch pump, again I don't think this is straightforward because the keyway and shaft are usually different to Bosch and therefore the drive belt sproket from Lucas won't fit the Bosch. So a new sproket might also be needed and then you have to hope you can time the pump properly with the changed sproket as well.

It doesn't have an intank lift pump, just a sender for the fuel delivery and fuel guage. They can get clogged up and lead to poor running, poor starting and rough idling hot or cold. I can't put a pic up but this has happened to me.

As for swapping the pump, yes it's a laboured job, you would need the sprocket. I'm pretty sure you don't have to touch the camshaft sprocket. Bosh pumps are far superior and more robust than the Lucas pump, both in operation and tuneability. Timing a Bosch pump; use a dial float.

les01

Hi
i have also thought about the sender pump in the tank and was also told that the XUD engine don`t have one.... and that the fule was drawn from the tank by the injector pump..??
I have thought about changing the lucas pump for a basch pump and got a price from me local garage (£750 pounds) dose this sonud about right...??
as i already have the pump sitting in my shed.. is this somthing i could do or am i looking at a moutain to clime...
will check for leaks on the fule lines.. thanks for that....
thanks les01

shamwari

les01 wrote: »

Hi
i have also thought about the sender pump in the tank and was also told that the XUD engine don`t have one.... and that the fule was drawn from the tank by the injector pump..??
I have thought about changing the lucas pump for a basch pump and got a price from me local garage (£750 pounds) dose this sonud about right...??
as i already have the pump sitting in my shed.. is this somthing i could do or am i looking at a moutain to clime...
will check for leaks on the fule lines.. thanks for that....
thanks les01

You're right, the XUD does not have a lift pump in the tank. The injector pump draws it from the tank. It keeps the fuel pipe under negative pressure (i.e. it sucks the fuel up). If there is any leaks anywhere in the system, the negative pressure will be lost and the fuel will go back to the tank,

As I said earlier, I don't think you have a pump problem causing your particular issue based on your description of the fault, and how operating the primer makes it easier to start. So I wouldn't worry about having to replace it just yet.

Troubleshooting an air leak can be messy but not impossible. Usually air ingresses itself into the fuel line through a weak joint or union. The extra cranking you have to give it to make it start is the pump sucking the fuel up from the tank, and you priming the bulb basically does that first and makes the car easier to start. If you park your car on a slope, park it with the nose pointing down and see does it make it easier to start - again this would be further evidence of an air leak.

The most likely culprits are:

• fuel filter seal or drain plug (replace the filter if in doubt)
• The primer bulb itself
• Injector leak off pipes

Some mechanics replace the fuel feel pipe between the pump and the filter with a clear plastic one. If there is air in the system, the bubbles will be immediately visible in the pipe. Any suspect joints in fuel pipes can be temporarily coated with vaseline as a means of stopping air getting in.

dgt

les01 wrote: »

Hi
i have also thought about the sender pump in the tank and was also told that the XUD engine don`t have one....

It does, it's not a pump like in a HDi just a sender. Fuel is drawn via the injector pump. Here's one I took out to clean


Its a bit tight on room and you can't get the ring out, there is enough room for it to nestle out of the way for the sender to go by. Worthwhile cleaning this, at least you then know it's functioning properly

les01

Hi...
well i be bugged..!!!!
was speeking to a freind to day and he said to me check the sender unit in the tank..?? but did,nt tell me where it would be in the tank do i get to it through the top or is it in the bottom of the tank..??
i did find a leak on the bottom of the fule filter at the drain blug..but it did,nt smell of deisel it looked more like water as you would exspect could this be letting air in the system..??
will check out the rest of the pip work in the next few day and will let you know how i get on.......
thanks les01

dgt

les01 wrote: »

Hi...
well i be bugged..!!!!
was speeking to a freind to day and he said to me check the sender unit in the tank..?? but did,nt tell me where it would be in the tank do i get to it through the top or is it in the bottom of the tank..??
i did find a leak on the bottom of the fule filter at the drain blug..but it did,nt smell of deisel it looked more like water as you would exspect could this be letting air in the system..??
will check out the rest of the pip work in the next few day and will let you know how i get on.......
thanks les01

The sender usually is at the top of the tank. How to get at it with a Berlingo I don't know, check the cargo area for an access panel/cover.

The drain being open would cause poor starting and running!

shamwari

les01 wrote: »

Hi...
well i be bugged..!!!!
was speeking to a freind to day and he said to me check the sender unit in the tank..?? but did,nt tell me where it would be in the tank do i get to it through the top or is it in the bottom of the tank..??
i did find a leak on the bottom of the fule filter at the drain blug..but it did,nt smell of deisel it looked more like water as you would exspect could this be letting air in the system..??
will check out the rest of the pip work in the next few day and will let you know how i get on.......
thanks les01

You might have found the cause of your problem! Time will tell. Usually though, some filters have a small O-Ring seal around the drain bung and these can be perished or mis-seated. If liquid can get out then air can certainly get in. Also if that filter has not been replaced in while then do consider replacing it.

McP2011

Berlingos never came with an xud. If you don't have any leaks I'd say it is the wee hand primer, have you tried leaving the van facing downhill when parking?

les01

shamwari wrote: »

You might have found the cause of your problem! Time will tell. Usually though, some filters have a small O-Ring seal around the drain bung and these can be perished or mis-seated. If liqu
id can get out then air can certainly get in. Also if that filter has not been replaced in while then do consider replacing it.

hi yea did change the fule filter a few weeks ago... will check the o/ring
so thanks for that......:D
les01

les01

shamwari wrote: »

You might have found the cause of your problem! Time will tell. Usually though, some filters have a small O-Ring seal around the drain bung and these can be perished or mis-seated. If liquid can get out then air can certainly get in. Also if that filter has not been replaced in while then do consider replacing it.

hi it`s me again...:rolleyes:
it looks like iv sorted the startting probleme..?? and me van starts with out having to hand prime it first....
now i get trouble with it startting when cold it dose start but there is abit of whight smoke... and it sounds like it`s trying to spit it`s teeth out and telling me to piss off back to bed...:D
this only happens when cold... it starts fine when warm no prbleme...:o
can you shed some light on this please......
thanks.........les01

shamwari

les01 wrote: »

hi it`s me again...:rolleyes:
it looks like iv sorted the startting probleme..?? and me van starts with out having to hand prime it first....
now i get trouble with it startting when cold it dose start but there is abit of whight smoke... and it sounds like it`s trying to spit it`s teeth out and telling me to piss off back to bed...:D
this only happens when cold... it starts fine when warm no prbleme...:o
can you shed some light on this please......
thanks.........les01

If you prime it, does it make the cold starting any easier?

If so, possibly still an air leak. If not, I'd be reading the supply to the glow plugs to see if they are being energised properly. Ordinarily I'd say replace the plugs but you already mentioned you done this.

There's also a cold-start mechansim on the pump which can give problems. It's supposed to increase RPM slightly and retard the injection timing by a small amount, again all to aid the cold start. I think I might have a note on that at home and will post if I can.

After that, compression test maybe.

How many miles on that engine?

les01

shamwari wrote: »

If you prime it, does it make the cold starting any easier?

If so, possibly still an air leak. If not, I'd be reading the supply to the glow plugs to see if they are being energised properly. Ordinarily I'd say replace the plugs but you already mentioned you done this.

There's also a cold-start mechansim on the pump which can give problems. It's supposed to increase RPM slightly and retard the injection timing by a small amount, again all to aid the cold start. I think I might have a note on that at home and will post if I can.

After that, compression test maybe.

How many miles on that engine?

hi
me van has done 136,000 ...:eek:
yea have changed the plugs and done a volt test an it seems ok
did think about the cold start on the pump is this tricky to do..??
have searched the internet for info on this but came up with nothing so if you have some info it would be good thanks..
think i better mention i had a service a couple of months ago ...(oil change..filter change... that kind of thing...+ cam belt..) but it was fine up to a month ago...
if i get a compression test done what kind of price am i looking at..?
havnt tryed primimg since it started ok....but will give it a go and let u you know

shamwari

les01 wrote: »

hi
me van has done 136,000 ...:eek:
yea have changed the plugs and done a volt test an it seems ok
did think about the cold start on the pump is this tricky to do..??
have searched the internet for info on this but came up with nothing so if you have some info it would be good thanks..
think i better mention i had a service a couple of months ago ...(oil change..filter change... that kind of thing...+ cam belt..) but it was fine up to a month ago...
if i get a compression test done what kind of price am i looking at..?
havnt tryed primimg since it started ok....but will give it a go and let u you know

136K isn't a lot on an engine like that if it has been looked after properly. With the glow plugs on a cold engine, the plugs should be energised from key on till a short while after startup. This "post heating" is to aid combustion and reduce noise and smoke on startup. It might be a good idea to check and confirm that the plugs are energised as I've outlined on a cold start. However, I would say that if you are starting in very cold weather at the mo then obviously this will impact on how well or otherwise your van will start

My memory of the cold start system on that pump is a little vague but I recall a cable that is connected to a lever and a waxstat type device which pulls the lever and cable to modify the timing / fueling for cold starting. There was some adjustment to be made on the cable but if its set correctly now and cold starting is still not right then the waxstat could be duff. As I said, I need to root it out first and see what's involved.

I wouldn't be looking at compression checks just yet because there's plenty of simple stuff to eliminate first. As you saw yourself, your first issue was appears to be down to something very simple indeed!!

les01

shamwari wrote: »

136K isn't a lot on an engine like that if it has been looked after properly. With the glow plugs on a cold engine, the plugs should be energised from key on till a short while after startup. This "post heating" is to aid combustion and reduce noise and smoke on startup. It might be a good idea to check and confirm that the plugs are energised as I've outlined on a cold start. However, I would say that if you are starting in very cold weather at the mo then obviously this will impact on how well or otherwise your van will start

My memory of the cold start system on that pump is a little vague but I recall a cable that is connected to a lever and a waxstat type device which pulls the lever and cable to modify the timing / fueling for cold starting. There was some adjustment to be made on the cable but if its set correctly now and cold starting is still not right then the waxstat could be duff. As I said, I need to root it out first and see what's involved.

yep can see what your talking about...:rolleyes: it`s a fast idle thremostat senor it scruws in to the bottom of the thermostat/fule filter housing with a cable going to the fast idle leaver on the pump....... had a look at it today and found that the cable don`t move when the van is warmed up is this rite...??
all so tryed the priming pump like you said a it started with no problem....
so will check for air leaks again just incase i have missed something...
didn`t think to check the preheat system.... but will do that....
think i may be looking at a few problems with this little van of mine ....:mad: thanks