My experience of Hadd training

Larry Brent

I started following the Hadd approach to training last year in an attempt to address my weakness - aerobic conditioning/endurance. This weakness becomes apparent on analysis of my race times and corresponding VDot:

800m - 2:08 - 66
1m - 4:50 - 62
3000 - 9:36 - 62
5m - 27:51 - 61
10m - 57:57 - 61

but then comes the drop off...

HM - 80:19 - 58
M - 2:53:58 - 56

The Hadd phase 1 plan consists of easy running at 70-75% max HR, running twice a week at LT HR (starts at 80-83%, once this is 'mastered' move to 82-85%. then 85-88% and finally 87-90%), and a long run at easy HR on a 4 weekly cycle of 1 hr 45mins, 2:00, 2:15, 2:30. The LT HR sessions should be preceded by 10x100m strides.

Marathon had been October, training afterwards was going grand till March/April when a stubborn cold/chest infection effectively wrote those off. So after 2 months of very little running I felt like I was starting from scratch in May. I started off with the Hadd fitness test.

The Hadd fitness test consists of running for 2400m at a variety of HRs, starting at HR max minus 50-60bpm and ending at HR max minus 10-15bpm or so, to see what pace is for each HR. I went with 140, 150, 160, 170, 180 as prior to this easy runs would have been around 150bpm for 7:30ish pace and HR max had been tested at 193 and 189 on previous occasions in a lab. HR - pace results were as follows (May 2nd):

140 - 8:33
150 - 7:55
160 - 7:14
170 - 6:33
180 - 5:39

6 days later I did a HR max field test - 800m all out, 1min rest, 400m all out. I ran 2:15 for the 800, HR max 186; 66s for the 400, HR max 186. I suspect I didn't push either as much as I could if in a race so maybe HR max could be a tad higher. Regardless, I took from this that my easy runs should be capped at 140bpm, Marathon HR would be 170bpm at best and starting LT HR would be 155, then move to 160, 165, and finally 170.

6 days later again I did a 10k race to see where I was (as HR, pace etc. means nothing in the grand scheme of things, only count race times). I was just under 36mins for 10k, about 5:48 pace, around 59 VDot. But it was a downhill course, so maybe in reality I was a minute or so slower.

So other than the above tests and race May was all just easy running, trying to get used to the low HR and build up the long run. 140 was very strnge initially - unnaturally slow feeling, like I was forcing the legs to move differently tan they wanted to. Also on the first few 140 runs I was getting twitches in my hamstrings and got DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness, sore muscle due to unaccustomed activity). Now I was far from unaccustomed to running, but the twitches and DOMS were a sign to me that I was recruiting muscle fibres which were unaccustomed to being recruited - I typically ran at 7:30 pace previously, now I was closer to 9min pace.

June 3rd I repeated the fitness test:

140 - 8:11
150 - 7:15
160 - 6:47
170 - 5:59
180 - 5:29

Encouraged by this I was hoping to get into the LT HR sessions in June, but due to a race I'd long previously signed up for and getting a cold, moving house etc. this never happened, so essentially all easy running and a 5k race in 17:57.

I eventually got into a rhythm of 2 LT HR sessions (155-160 range) and a long run a week in July. Due to 90% of my runs being at 5am and time constraints the one thing I did not do and which should be done was the 10x100m strides prior to the LT HR sessions. Repeated fitness test on July 25th:

140 - 7:41
150 - 7:00
160 - 6:17
170 - 5:45
180 - 5:22

Here was the first sign that omitting the 10x100m strides was coming back to haunt me - at 180, I actually only hit 175 and couldn't get it higher. I reckon this was because I was losing touch with (detraining) my fast twitch fibres (and so HR did not need to rise to clear lactate).

August was more of the same as July, but the sessions were now in the 160-165 range now. I did do one of Hadd's sessions for keeping in touch with leg speed at the start of the month, alternating 200s with 200 at 5k effort followed by 200 at 15s slower and this ended up as 10k in 38:12. I felt in great shape at this stage. I ran 2 races but didn't put much stock in the results, one was a hilly 5k in 17:54 and the other was 3 days later with a lot of travelling and a transatlantic flight the day before, 10k in 37:27.

Retested on Sep 18th.

140 - 7:23
150 - 6:51
160 - 6:27
170 - 5:46
180 - 5:16

Yet again, despite the '180' leg feeling okay, HR average was only 174. The first real test was 5 days later with a HM. I ran 77:30, 5:53 pace, VDot 61. As with Joe in Hadd's original article, that's where the story ends I didn't get to do my marathon as it was cancelled.

So I don't know if this training would have ended with a good marathon performance. I know my marathon came too soon, no way could I have done a marathon at 170bpm. I had 'mastered' 165, but got only 2 sessions done at 170. So my provisional plan was to start at 163 and allow it to slowly rise to 168 tops.

But I was very happy that it got my HM time in line with my 5m/10m times. The cost of slower 5k times may be due to not doing the strides and enough of the alternating 200s sessions (I only did 1) that Hadd advised. In any case, Phase 1 is simply to build a base. Phase 2a aims at improving ability from 5k to HM. I think that Phase 2a after a good Phase 1 would have one in great shape. Phase 2b then would polish it all off for a best marathon performance.

tisnotover

Great post!

Following similar Hadd plan for base training at moment, hope to see your progression. Interesting to read comment on strides. I think this is important, especially after those 140hr easy runs.

Have only done the one 2400m hadd test so far, like you could not average 180hr, hopefully this will improve, due to do 2nd one in 2weeks time.

So where are you know, are you using still following same plan, or have you moved onto 2a?

One more question, what was your average heart-rate for the half marathon?

Ceepo

tisnotover wrote: »

Great post!

Following similar Hadd plan for base training at moment, hope to see your progression. Interesting to read comment on strides. I think this is important, especially after those 140hr easy runs.

Have only done the one 2400m hadd test so far, like you could not average 180hr, hopefully this will improve, due to do 2nd one in 2weeks time.

So where are you know, are you using still following same plan, or have you moved onto 2a?

One more question, what was your average heart-rate for the half marathon?

What was your max hr before you started the Hadd training ?

Ceepo

@Larry Brent,

Very interesting post thanks, just a few questions if you dont mind.

What were your 5k 10k times before you started,

What was your max HR before you started,

What was your typical long run time or distance

Last one, Are are still following the plan,

Thanks

Larry Brent

tisnotover wrote: »

Have only done the one 2400m hadd test so far, like you could not average 180hr, hopefully this will improve, due to do 2nd one in 2weeks time.

In retrospect I'd probably have been better off doing 135/145/155/165/175. The 180 was probably a bit close to my HR max, the first too tests I only managed 179 and 178.

The test works out as a very good session. A friend who is a coach does it with his athletes, taking lactate after each HR leg and at the end gets them to go 600m all out.

tisnotover wrote: »

So where are you know, are you using still following same plan, or have you moved onto 2a?

The plan after the marathon that was cancelled was to get into Phase 2a after recovering to culminate in a 10k in Feb leaving 8 weeks for Phase 2b prior to an April marathon. Never got off the ground, a hamstring injury late December meant I'm just back running 2 weeks, have only 10 weeks left now so no time for Phase 2a, will just try to get ready for the marathon with lots of steady and threshold running.

tisnotover wrote: »

One more question, what was your average heart-rate for the half marathon?

172. I expected it to be 175 or so. Maybe lower than expected for 2 reasons -

1) I probably could have pushed more in the race. Having no one a minute ahead or behind me I probably slacked off a bit in the middle portion. I was at 174/175 for first few miles, then dropped down to 171s before upping to 174 for last few miles.

2) At that stage I was still just at 165 HR for the sessions. If I was more used to 170 I might have been able to push a bit harder. But again, Hadd stressed that you would not be able to run your best 5k-HM off Phase 1 - you'd feel strong like you could keep going at the end of the race, but you just couldn't speed up. I certainly felt like this on some of the races. Again, the strides are very important and a few of his 200s session, so that there will be an easier transition to Phase 2a.

Larry Brent

Ceepo wrote: »

What were your 5k 10k times before you started,

I didn't put these in as I don't think they are a good representation. 5k is 17:00. 10k is 35:42, but I ran a faster 10k split in a 10m race. Whatever VDot 60-61 is for those distances is probably a closer reflection of what my best could be for them I think.

Ceepo wrote: »

What was your max HR before you started,

Tested at 193 and 189 a few years previously, the 189 test I didn't push as hard as the 193 test. A bit older now, I reckon 188-190 maybe. A 5k race I'd probably go from 182 by end of 1k to 185 for most of race, maybe a bit higher at end. But I've very rarely worn monitor in races so don't have more data than that one race.

Ceepo wrote: »

What was your typical long run time or distance

If I was just doing this as base training I'd stick with the 1:45/2:00/2:15/2:30 cycle, but as I had a marathon I built up with a few 16s, a couple of 18s, and a few 20-22s. A lot of these had a fair bit of 'work', like if I was at 165bpm stage, I could do 10-13m of the long run at 165bpm, particularly if I missed one of the typical 10m work sessions during the week, i.e. I'd combine the long run and work session. There were loads of midweek 14m runs though.

Ceepo wrote: »

Are are still following the plan,

Answered above I hope.

Larry Brent

Just another couple of quick thoughts. I think the Hadd Phase 1 is ideal for someone with a fall off in performance as the race gets longer. With the 2400m test, the closer together the paces, or the narrower the range, the better. So on my first test above there was nearly 3mins difference between 140 and 180 paces, and from test to test that difference went down to roughly 2:40, 2:20, 2:00. The narrower the range the better. I can think of a 2:36 marathoner from here who probably runs 6:30-6:40 pace for 140 and maybe 5:20 pace for 180.

Ceepo

Thank's Larry.

What was your typical long run before you started Hadd,

As this may have been part reason for the fall off over longer distances,
Do you think that some people are Pre-dispossed to be better over shorter, or longer distances, fast twitch, slow twitch type of thing, or just that we need to work on Aerobic like Hadd would lead us to believe ?.

Thanks again for answering these questions,

And its good to see you had the Patience to stick with the training, im sure it wasn't easy at times, too keep your HR down and running at a slower pace than what you might be used to

tisnotover

Ceepo wrote: »

What was your max hr before you started the Hadd training ?

tested it at 189 just before christmas,prob could have gone a bit higher to be honest, was trying to blast it up a hill as hard as possible, but should have ran it on a longer hill, as I ended up cresting it...might repeat this in a week actually.

p.s. log here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055719344&page=74

tisnotover

Larry Brent wrote: »

172. I expected it to be 175 or so. Maybe lower than expected for 2 reasons -

1) I probably could have pushed more in the race. Having no one a minute ahead or behind me I probably slacked off a bit in the middle portion. I was at 174/175 for first few miles, then dropped down to 171s before upping to 174 for last few miles.

2) At that stage I was still just at 165 HR for the sessions. If I was more used to 170 I might have been able to push a bit harder. But again, Hadd stressed that you would not be able to run your best 5k-HM off Phase 1 - you'd feel strong like you could keep going at the end of the race, but you just couldn't speed up. I certainly felt like this on some of the races. Again, the strides are very important and a few of his 200s session, so that there will be an easier transition to Phase 2a.

interesting on half heart-rate, saw the same myself in a 10mile, averaged 169, surprised when I saw this after race, was expecting it to be in around 175, shows scope for more I hope, if I further developed hadd aerobic ranges with 10miler mid-wk runs, which is what you are suggesting in 2) above.

thanks for the replies!

Larry Brent

Ceepo wrote: »

What was your typical long run before you started Hadd,

Prior to this I had done a marathon using a Canova type approach. So had a good few months with weekly 18-22milers. Prior to this though I probably hadn't run longer than 10-12m for long runs for 3 years or so (was focusing on shorter distances), so that definitely didn't help the endurance

Ceepo wrote: »

Do you think that some people are Pre-dispossed to be better over shorter, or longer distances, fast twitch, slow twitch type of thing,

Undoubtedly. And training should be tailored accordingly. Like a fast twitcher might do 14x300 @ 5k but with 100m jog in 30s for recovery whereas a slow twitcher might be better off with 12x400 @ 3-5k with 1min stand recovery.

Ceepo wrote: »

And its good to see you had the Patience to stick with the training, im sure it wasn't easy at times, too keep your HR down and running at a slower pace than what you might be used to

After the first few weeks of getting used to the very slow relative pace (I was close to 9min mile pace) it was actually the most enjoyable training I've ever done. The 14m runs with 10m at LT HR were very invigorating.

Ceepo

Larry Brent wrote: »

Prior to this I had done a marathon using a Canova type approach. So had a good few months with weekly 18-22milers. Prior to this though I probably hadn't run longer than 10-12m for long runs for 3 years or so (was focusing on shorter distances), so that definitely didn't help the endurance



Undoubtedly. And training should be tailored accordingly. Like a fast twitcher might do 14x300 @ 5k but with 100m jog in 30s for recovery whereas a slow twitcher might be better off with 12x400 @ 3-5k with 1min stand recovery.





After the first few weeks of getting used to the very slow relative pace (I was close to 9min mile pace) it was actually the most enjoyable training I've ever done. The 14m runs with 10m at LT HR were very invigorating.

Thanks for all your answers

Krusty_Clown

Your VDOTs are almost a direct inverse of my own (though I never scored so high). Why are you doing the longer stuff at all? Planning on using the half/full marathon to improve your 800s, or is the shorter stuff just a young man's game?

Larry Brent

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Your VDOTs are almost a direct inverse of my own (though I never scored so high). Why are you doing the longer stuff at all? Planning on using the half/full marathon to improve your 800s, or is the shorter stuff just a young man's game?

I agree. I retired from marathons in 2008 once I ran a 2:59. When I emigrated in 2011 the local marathon was just a few months ago so I entered it as a way of getting to know the city during training runs while I looked for a suitable track club. But the marathon beat me so I entered another one to get my revenge. That one was cancelled so I have to wait till April to go back into retirement. Have a few great 1500s lined up for the summer. Track racing here I come.

Larry Brent

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Your VDOTs are almost a direct inverse of my own

That fits well with you being another who probably has a very tight range, maybe 6:30 for 140, 5:20 for 180 type of thing. Your strength is your strength.

ecoli

Great to see a real life case example of this and feedback from both coach/athlete.

I think itcan be a great tool if done properly. I have applied it once to an athlete with great success for the brief period the athlete was with me (duration of about 3 months) however it can be a hard one to apply unless you can get the person fully on board with the long term plan