World migration and remittance money

token101

The Guardian have an interactive map which shows global migration figures and the amounts of money migrants send home every year, called remittance money. 3% of the world's population live in a different country to that of their birth and they send $500 billion home every year, three times the global aid budget.

I found Ireland's stats really interesting, especially considering all the talk of foreign aid and immigration that goes on here. I kind of expected there to be a fairly massive in/outflow of money to/from the UK, but more money is sent to Britain than is sent here which kind of surprised me. I'm thinking these are annual figures, and if I'm right (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) Nigerians in Ireland send USD$601 million back to Nigeria every year, the Polish send just over a third of that back home. Considering there are only 24,000 or so Nigerians here and 93,000 Polish here, I definitely thought that would be the other way around.

xLexie

Tldr.


Why this thread not about free money

token101

xLexie wrote: »

Tldr.


Why this thread not about free money

It's 6 ****ing lines. Here's the Daily Mail headline you clearly need:

NIGERIANS SEND 601 MILLION OUT OF IRELAND EVERY YEAR

Victor

token101 wrote: »

I'm thinking these are annual figures, and if I'm right (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) Nigerians in Ireland send USD$601 million

Where does this number come from?

It would seem unrealistic that they are averaging $25,000 (€18,300) each.

xLexie

token101 wrote: »

It's 6 ****ing lines. Here's the Daily Mail headline you clearly need:

NIGERIANS SEND 601 MILLION OUT OF IRELAND EVERY YEAR

Well you coulda just said that! :mad:

Who knew Nigerians were so generous?

Guy:Incognito

token101 wrote: »

Nigerians in Ireland send USD$601 million back to Nigeria every year... . Considering there are only 24,000 or so Nigerians here .

So every Nigerian in Ireland is sending $25,000 back home each year?:eek:

kneemos

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So every Nigerian in Ireland is sending $25,000 back home each year?:eek:

Men,women and children.

juan.kerr

xLexie wrote: »

Well you coulda just said that! :mad:

Who knew Nigerians were so generous?

You mean the Department of Social Protection.

The 24,000 figure is well off the actual figure.

juan.kerr

Does the 601 million exclude 419 scams?

token101

Victor wrote: »

Where does this number come from?

It would seem unrealistic that they are averaging $25,000 (€18,300) each.

World Bank. I thought it seemed implausible too to be honest, at first I thought it might be an accumulation over a decade. Bear in mind that I'd imagine there are 24,000 official migrants in Ireland, there might be an awful lot more here that aren't included in that figure. They also might not include Nigerians who became citizens. But I'll stress that I'm guessing there!!

Anyone

Considering the history we have of exporting people, and them sending money back home dont we look very stupid commenting on other nations doing the same.

It happens, it has always happened. People want to look out for and help their family.

Death and Taxes

Fair play to them.

token101

Anyone wrote: »

Considering the history we have of exporting people, and them sending money back home dont we look very stupid commenting on other nations doing the same.

It happens, it has always happened. People want to look out for and help their family.

It's not stupid at all. Massive capital flights out of a small, insolvent country should be a bit of a concern to be honest, regardless of the stuff about what Irish people do.

Annasopra

Der takin our muney.....

Anyone

token101 wrote: »

It's not stupid at all. Massive capital flights out of a small, insolvent country should be a bit of a concern to be honest, regardless of the stuff about what Irish people do.

Those figures are not "massive" and this country isn't "insolvent".

Doc Ruby

token101 wrote: »

It's not stupid at all. Massive capital flights out of a small, insolvent country should be a bit of a concern to be honest, regardless of the stuff about what Irish people do.

So you're saying what, they should be deported or forced to keep their money in Irish banks or something?

That entire article is very fishy, I'm pretty sure there's a lot more than 98,000 Polish people here.

Annasopra

Doc Ruby wrote: »

So you're saying what, they should be deported or forced to keep their money in Irish banks or something?

That entire article is very fishy, I'm pretty sure there's a lot more than 98,000 Polish people here.

How sure?

Death and Taxes

Doc Ruby wrote: »

So you're saying what, they should be deported or forced to keep their money in Irish banks or something?

That entire article is very fishy, I'm pretty sure there's a lot more than 98,000 Polish people here.

According to the last census it was over 122,000
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1004/breaking27.html

Doc Ruby

mango salsa wrote: »

How sure?

Well the census in 2011 said 122,000 for starters, so the figures in the article have at minimum a 25% margin of error for something as basic as population numbers, making the entire exercise farcical. Why, does it bother you?

Edit: ninja'ed by a coyote!

Herb Powell

They earned their money, they can do what they like with it. If they're tax dodging, or doing anything illegal, that's obviously wrong, but to infer that there is some serious moral problem with them sending back money to families is more than a little bit cuuntish, considering our own history. Obviously it would be better for our own economy if they spent it all here, but it's exactly the same the world over. That is the way the cookie crumbles.

crockholm

Would that money be nice,right about now?youbetcha.
Would telling a person what to do with their own money be a much,much greater injustice? youbetcha

IM0

someone has way way way to much time on their hands in the guardian

stop reporting peoples scummy agendas and tell us more about poor cats stuck in trees and **** like that

token101

Herb Powell wrote: »

They earned their money, they can do what they like with it. If they're tax dodging, or doing anything illegal, that's obviously wrong, but to infer that there is some serious moral problem with them sending back money to families is more than a little bit cuuntish, considering our own history. Obviously it would be better for our own economy if they spent it all here, but it's exactly the same the world over. That is the way the cookie crumbles.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

So you're saying what, they should be deported or forced to keep their money in Irish banks or something?

That entire article is very fishy, I'm pretty sure there's a lot more than 98,000 Polish people here.

Can someone point out where morality or deportation was mentioned? Or where anyone said anyone should be forced to do anything? Assuming that the figures are correct, if you don't see any economic problem with 600 million leaving a country that's cutting spending massively, then you're a ****ing idiot really! They could surely be incentivised to keep that money here. And there's also the fact that Ireland still sends Nigeria 'aid', which after reading that is a bit of a joke really. Particularly when you consider that some of that money is welfare money.

They're World Bank figures, they're probably about as reliable as you're likely to get.

Anyone wrote: »

Those figures are not "massive" and this country isn't "insolvent".

Are you ****ing serious? :pac: Do you really think that a Labour government would be confronting the unions if the country wasn't absolutely ****ed economically?

Herb Powell

token101 wrote: »

Can someone point out where morality or deportation was mentioned? Or where anyone said anyone should be forced to do anything?

You didn't. I was just pre-emptively countering the inevitable-it's not a large jump to make at all, especially to those with an agenda.

I wouldn't be against trying to provide an incentive for immigrants to keep as much of their money here as possible. Incentives, rather than forced measures though, that's the key. It would still be entirely up to the individuals themselves what to do with their money.

Victor

token101 wrote: »

And there's also the fact that Ireland still sends Nigeria 'aid', which after reading that is a bit of a joke really. Particularly when you consider that some of that money is welfare money.

http://www.irishaid.gov.ie/media/irishaid/allwebsitemedia/20newsandpublications/publicationpdfsenglish/2011-irish-aid-annual-report.pdf See Annex 8.

Of a total aid budget of €450m in 2011, only €1.3m was spent in Nigeria.

Death and Taxes

token101 wrote: »

Can someone point out where morality or deportation was mentioned? Or where anyone said anyone should be forced to do anything? Assuming that the figures are correct, if you don't see any economic problem with 600 million leaving a country that's cutting spending massively, then you're a ****ing idiot really! They could surely be incentivised to keep that money here. And there's also the fact that Ireland still sends Nigeria 'aid', which after reading that is a bit of a joke really. Particularly when you consider that some of that money is welfare money.

They're World Bank figures, they're probably about as reliable as you're likely to get.



Are you ****ing serious? :pac: Do you really think that a Labour government would be confronting the unions if the country wasn't absolutely ****ed economically?

They are wholly unreliable and at serious variance with the official census figures published by the CSO.
Whole thing is bollocks!

Chinasea

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there's a lot more than 98,000 Polish people here.

Ye do, with that well known cead mile failite thingy that we have had did we? where we?

Anyone

token101 wrote: »

Are you ****ing serious? :pac: Do you really think that a Labour government would be confronting the unions if the country wasn't absolutely ****ed economically?

Ah ok, I wasnt aware that a politcal party speaking to a trade union was the necessary requirement for declaring a nation insolvent. When did they introduce that?

Eve_Dublin

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Fair play to them.

I agree. I'd do the same if my family were broke back in Ireland.

Doc Ruby

token101 wrote: »

Can someone point out where morality or deportation was mentioned? Or where anyone said anyone should be forced to do anything? Assuming that the figures are correct, if you don't see any economic problem with 600 million leaving a country that's cutting spending massively, then you're a ****ing idiot really! They could surely be incentivised to keep that money here.

So you're saying that you perceive a problem. What do you propose to do about this problem that you see, or are you just trying to stir up general feelings of ill will towards immigrants from poor countries? I mean what exactly are you getting at here.

token101 wrote: »

They're World Bank figures, they're probably about as reliable as you're likely to get.

They are wrong, flat out, plain and simple. Between populations being off by 25% and every African man woman and child sending back thirty grand per annum surely you can see that?

Even if they were correct, and they aren't, the amount being sent out of the country would come to about a third of a percent of our GDP, which is 0.003. That won't make a difference to anything one way or the other.

Truncheon Rouge

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Even if they were correct, and they aren't

I read that in David Mitchells voice.

Capt'n Midnight

[QUOTE=token101;83012080 3% of the world's population live in a different country to that of their birth and they send $500 billion home every year, three times the global aid budget. [/QUOTE]http://evatt.org.au/papers/tackling-tax-havens.html

The money lost by developing countries from ‘illicit financial flows’ is vast, mainly through tax evasion and tax avoidance but including other forms of corruption and crime. Anti-corruption non-government organisation, Global Financial Integrity, estimated that in 2008 alone, Africa lost US$64 billion in illicit flows, while the Philippines lost US$16.4 billion, India US$21.5 billion and Indonesia US$16.5 billion. Globally, overseas aid in 2009 was only US$120 billion.

Christian Aid estimated that, through tax evasion and tax avoidance by transfer mispricing and false invoicing, in 2008 developing countries lost an estimated US$160 billion in tax. They estimated that, if this money was used in the same way as the taxes actually collected, it would have saved the lives of 350,000 children.

The Tax Justice Network has recently released research that estimated the amount of unreported private financial wealth owned by wealthy individuals held in tax havens was between $21 trillion and $32 trillion. This is at least the size of the US and Japanese economies combined. The lost tax revenue on this hidden wealth is estimated to be between $190 billion and $280 billion.

The Road Runner

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So every Nigerian in Ireland is sending $25,000 back home each year?:eek:

That can't be right. the poles are sending an average of about 1750 euro a year back.

Pottler

The Road Runner wrote: »

That can't be right. the poles are sending an average of about 1750 euro a year back.

The Poles are (not all obvs) driving forklifts and manning counters, the Nigerians are all doing much better paid work, such as..errr,....ummm...jasus, what do they do to earn this?



which is pretty much the only angle of this thread that interests me, they can burn it for all I care if that's what they want to do.

AlekSmart

Doc Ruby wrote: »

So you're saying what, they should be deported or forced to keep their money in Irish banks or something?

That entire article is very fishy, I'm pretty sure there's a lot more than 98,000 Polish people here.

The article itself is an accurate representation of a World Bank report,although some posters who would normally be hugely respective of such a source have suddenly gone all dissy of the poor ould World Bank as if it had suddenly been taken over by raving Right-Wingers !!!

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/TOPICS/0,,contentMDK:21924020~pagePK:5105988~piPK:360975~theSitePK:214971,00.html

Some quite interesting stuff about the actual cost of remitting all this money too....underlining the new niche industry of "Cash Transfers" as epitomized by the likes of Western Union.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTPROSPECTS/Resources/334934-1110315015165/Bilateral_Remittance_Matrix_2011_Final.xlsx

I'm just glad to know that at least one Saudi Arabian managed to transfer a million bucks back home...;)

There are many reasons for the disparity between the Nigerian and "Rest of World" figures,but it is most likely to do with the hugely successful nature of Nigerian Businesspeople at the very highest levels,whereas many of the other nationalities tend to perform somewhat more menial and less well remunerated work....;)

It is always open to posters to question the World Bank on the veracity of it's statistics,and i'd fully expect the WB to be able to verify it's sources too...:)

noxqs

If they earned the money, do we really have a say in how they spend/where they send them? Its their money, not your money.

And how much money has Ireland received over the years from especially the migrants from the US, UK ?

From a global economic perspective it is interesting figures - but when applied locally and people shout about it, its nothing but a thinly veiled : dey tok er money.

Push Pop

token101 wrote: »

Can someone point out where morality or deportation was mentioned? Or where anyone said anyone should be forced to do anything? Assuming that the figures are correct, if you don't see any economic problem with 600 million leaving a country that's cutting spending massively, then you're a ****ing idiot really! They could surely be incentivised to keep that money here. And there's also the fact that Ireland still sends Nigeria 'aid', which after reading that is a bit of a joke really. Particularly when you consider that some of that money is welfare money.

They're World Bank figures, they're probably about as reliable as you're likely to get.



Are you ****ing serious? :pac: Do you really think that a Labour government would be confronting the unions if the country wasn't absolutely ****ed economically?

You are dead right. I can only assume you are educated in economics/finance. The lefties would rather we go bankrupt rather than stop the BS that goes on at the expense of the Irish. Who voted to let them in en masse to do this??

Chinasea

Push Pop wrote: »

The lefties would rather we go bankrupt rather than stop the BS that goes on at the expense of the Irish. Who voted to let them in en masse to do this??

Who voted what 'en masse' to do WHAT, WHERE and when pray tell?

Doc Ruby

AlekSmart wrote: »

The article itself is an accurate representation of a World Bank report,although some posters who would normally be hugely respective of such a source have suddenly gone all dissy of the poor ould World Bank as if it had suddenly been taken over by raving Right-Wingers !!!

Doesn't matter if Jesus O'Buddha said it, the facts are wrong. Why is this still up for discussion.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Some quite interesting stuff about the actual cost of remitting all this money too....underlining the new niche industry of "Cash Transfers" as epitomized by the likes of Western Union.

Western Union has been around since 1851.

AlekSmart wrote: »

There are many reasons for the disparity between the Nigerian and "Rest of World" figures,but it is most likely to do with the hugely successful nature of Nigerian Businesspeople at the very highest levels,whereas many of the other nationalities tend to perform somewhat more menial and less well remunerated work....

Not to disparage Nigerians, but what on earth are you talking about?

Pottler

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Doesn't matter if Jesus O'Buddha said it, the facts are wrong. Why is this still up for discussion.


Western Union has been around since 1851.


Not to disparage Nigerians, but what on earth are you talking about?

No-ones managed to say what sort of enterprises the Nigerians are involved in to raise this $601,000,000.00. That's a nice chunk of change, what sort of madly successful businesses of the "highest level" are they running? I'm genuinely very interested as I've never noticed them running anything except Churches.

Dyr

Herb Powell wrote: »

Obviously it would be better for our own economy if they spent it all here,

Economically, t would be even better if they f**ked off home

Gyalist

Pottler wrote: »

No-ones managed to say what sort of enterprises the Nigerians are involved in to raise this $601,000,000.00. That's a nice chunk of change, what sort of madly successful businesses of the "highest level" are they running? I'm genuinely very interested as I've never noticed them running anything except Churches.

I know one with a PhD in Pharmacology from Trinity who owns a few pharmacies. He must be one of them sending money to Nigeria.

AlekSmart

Gyalist wrote: »

I know one with a PhD in Pharmacology from Trinity who owns a few pharmacies. He must be one of them sending money to Nigeria.

Die he ever venture an opinon on Mary Harney perchance ?

AlekSmart

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Doesn't matter if Jesus O'Buddha said it, the facts are wrong. Why is this still up for discussion.

I only found it interesting in the context of usually having the likes of World Bank Statistics quoted at me to refute personal opinon's which differ from other more "Statistically inclined" posters.

The usual line would be to quote some substantial tract from these reports as if handed down from a nearby mount by an aged gent in toga and sandals.

Western Union has been around since 1851.

Well I never....but at least now they have competition...at least 10 other companies offering similar services

Not to disparage Nigerians,but what on earth are you talking about?

I'm not taking you as despariging Nigerians at all...I'm simply pointing out the highly succesful nature of the Nigerian entrepreneurial emigré in Ireland.

The World-Bank is supplying a set of figures which,on the surface,could imply some Taxation Related issues for Ireland.

You may well decry and dismiss the World Bank as an agency of note,but yet our own Government uses their services during it's own financial planning and decision making processess....Perhaps Ireland needs a to seek a new World Bank from which to seek advice ?

I dunno ....

AlekSmart

Pottler wrote: »

No-ones managed to say what sort of enterprises the Nigerians are involved in to raise this $601,000,000.00. That's a nice chunk of change, what sort of madly successful businesses of the "highest level" are they running? I'm genuinely very interested as I've never noticed them running anything except Churches.

I've been unable to find it again,but at some location in the World Bank's "Factsheet" it mentions Taxation as one of the issues arising from these transfers.

I can't help wondering what,if any,input the Revenue Commissioners has had into this €601,000,000 or whether its pre of after tax in Ireland ?

There sure seems to be a few juicy questions raised by our Banking friends in The WORLD :eek:

markesmith

Push Pop wrote: »

You are dead right. I can only assume you are educated in economics/finance. The lefties would rather we go bankrupt rather than stop the BS that goes on at the expense of the Irish. Who voted to let them in en masse to do this??

Who do you think we should have voted in? The Blueshirts disbanded in the '30s.

AlekSmart

markesmith wrote: »

Who do you think we should have voted in? The Blueshirts disbanded in the '30s.

Hmmm,now there's an idea....:)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/03/us-italy-vote-idUSBRE91206320130203

I just love a bit of reinvention

Pherekydes

Bambi wrote: »

Economically, t would be even better if they f**ked off home

Maybe many of them are home?