Cup Draws

crackit

I got sent a message from a friend on facebook yesterday saying all the cup draws were made in alphabetical order. I honestly didn't believe it because I didn't think the powers that be could possibly be that lazy but having had a gander through the lot of them they definitely are.

There are the section splits Fingal, West Dublin, South Dublin etc... that make up one quarter of each draw and within those sections the teams are placed in alphabetical order.

I have to say this is completely farcical and I'm not having a pot shot for the sake of it. The person who sent me the info plays for Phoenix and he only noticed because they are at the very bottom of every half of their draw meaning no chance of a home cup game for them. If you get drawn in that spot then fine but to be placed there alphabetically is stupid beyond words. YM are at the bottom of their half of any competition they field a team in too due to this.

How hard is it to put some names into a hat and actually do a draw? Very disappointing indeed that they couldn't be bothered to do draws and did this instead :rolleyes:

D3PO

crackit wrote: »

I got sent a message from a friend on facebook yesterday saying all the cup draws were made in alphabetical order. I honestly didn't believe it because I didn't think the powers that be could possibly be that lazy but having had a gander through the lot of them they definitely are.

There are the section splits Fingal, West Dublin, South Dublin etc... that make up one quarter of each draw and within those sections the teams are placed in alphabetical order.

I have to say this is completely farcical and I'm not having a pot shot for the sake of it. The person who sent me the info plays for Phoenix and he only noticed because they are at the very bottom of every half of their draw meaning no chance of a home cup game for them. If you get drawn in that spot then fine but to be placed there alphabetically is stupid beyond words. YM are at the bottom of their half of any competition they field a team in too due to this.

How hard is it to put some names into a hat and actually do a draw? Very disappointing indeed that they couldn't be bothered to do draws and did this instead :rolleyes:

If thats true its an absolute farce. Thats not a draw, and is a shambles.

Renno has stepped down from the OCC but Id be interested to hear what he has to say as he might have some insight.

D3PO

Ive just checked the draws out of curiosity.

Seems the T20 draws were that way (I checked the Salver, Whelan & Tillian only), but the other draws for the main one day cups appear to have been open draws.

Possible coincidence ? If it were one cup id say yes but three cups is a bit much. Totally unfair for those sides that got a prelim round to play or are stuck away without a fair crack at the whip.

crackit

Like I've said I had a look and that's the way it is. There is a slight element of it being mixed about in the case of Prelim rounds. North Kildare are drawn above Adamstown in a Prelim in one case. But for the rest of it alphabetical order is in place. Just to take a quick sample

3rd Quarter of YM Salver
Dundrum or Greystones v Sandyford
Terenure v Wicklow

3rd Quarter of the Whelan
Cabinteely v Greystones
Sandyford v Terenure

1st Quarter of the Tillain
Clontarf v Malahide
North County v The Hills

I haven't looked back on older draws to be fair. I should qualify the statement and say I don't know if every cup has landed this way but certainly the last few have. Regardless of whether it's one cup or all the cups it shouldn't be done like this anyway.

Edit

Just read your reply there and, as I said, I hadn't checked the other cups. It's still nonsense though to "draw" any cup in such a manner.

Score of 10

Good spot. This is an outrage to say the very least, fair enough dividing the draws up north/south in any case but to have it split so that D4 teams cant draw D6/16 teams is a joke, the drive is the same length for almost everyone in this case, it should be amended so these teams can face each other and maybe have a bit of variety in the team which makes the semi's

Cots

The way these draws get split up are farcical anyways, how is it that Terenure is local enough to be lumped with Wicklow, it's happened the last 2 years now as well, luckily we've been at home

crackit

Cots wrote: »

The way these draws get split up are farcical anyways, how is it that Terenure is local enough to be lumped with Wicklow, it's happened the last 2 years now as well, luckily we've been at home

If you played for Zerenure you wouldn't be so lucky!

Cots

crackit wrote: »

If you played for Zerenure you wouldn't be so lucky!

I'll thank my lucky stars no-one ever decided to change the name, however may now propose we our called Aterenure from now on in light of this turning up.

djimi

Cots wrote: »

The way these draws get split up are farcical anyways, how is it that Terenure is local enough to be lumped with Wicklow, it's happened the last 2 years now as well, luckily we've been at home

You think thats bad? Try get from North Kildare to Balbriggan/Skerries for a 6pm midweek game. If I ever get my hands on the genius who decided that Kilcock should be part of north county Dublin for the purpose of midweek cup games...

Cots

djimi wrote: »

You think thats bad? Try get from North Kildare to Balbriggan/Skerries for a 6pm midweek game. If I ever get my hands on the genius who decided that Kilcock should be part of north county Dublin for the purpose of midweek cup games...

They're in with Phoenix now which isn't too bad but point taken. Still both are an hour drive easily so makes no sense at all

Renno

Lots of issues raised here.

The alphabetical draws seem to be a one off, and don't appear to have happened in the past. It is only in the four T20 competitions - Tillain, YM Salver, Whelan and RCT

I was surprised as everyone - and have been doing the previews on the Cricket Leinster site, which now make me look pretty stupid! Hopefully the OCC will comment/explain today on the website.

Regionalisation. Even on this thread there are contrasting views about how far clubs should travel. Unfortunately there is a very Dublin-centric view, that it is impossible to travel beyond the environs of Dublin 4, 6 8 etc. Clubs from outside County Dublin have just as much right as others to be play in evening comps.

The aim is to find the best way of incorporating all clubs - personally I feel that there needs to be regional groups of three for all T20 comps, with teams having the option of playing on a weekend if need be (as per the format of the new LCU T20/Russell Court Trophy last year). That is the only way that the wishes of Pembroke, Phoenix, Longford and Wexford could be met.

The current regional set-up does give plenty of problems - you need to have at least four teams in each quarter of the draw - hence some teams being moved around. But as a guide, in 2011 and 2012, each region was given a random position in the draw, and within that quarter, each club had a random position.

djimi

The regional divison for cup games seems to be a lot better the past couple of years (although Im not sure a trip to Laois would be much fun in the evening, I guess it cant be helped!). The previous arrangement felt like it just did not give a toss about where people had to travel from and to in rush hour traffic having finished work at 5 or 5.30.

The cup "draws" this season are a disgrace; Im actually dying to hear the rationale behind sorting them alphabetically. Would it really have been that hard to write the names on a piece of paper and draw them from a box? Utter nonsense.

crackit

I don't think people have a problem with regionalisation of the draws. Especially when it comes to the midweek games. As was said above the country teams have a right to be in each competition as well. Maybe cycling them through each quarter of the draw each year rather than leaving them in the one section might be a way to go.

The splitting of the South Dublin section is a big load of nonsense though. Absolute and utter rubbish that a D4 team can't be drawn against a D6/16 team. It's no more difficult to get from there to the next place.

All positions need to be random. The cups need to be redrawn. They've been caught with their proverbial pants down being utterly lazy and need to put their hand up, admit it and give every club a fair crack in an open, if regionalised, draw.

crackit

LCU reply

Quite a number of years ago clubs asked that for the cups played on midweek evenings, that clubs be put into sections on a geographical basis to make for easier journeys. Inevitably therefore this will end up with teams from the same part of the city playing each other regularly . If a lot of people really want to change this it is something that could be taken on board for the future. Since what was done proved quite popular I think it would take more than a few website comments to justify what would be a substantial change.

The alphabetical issue happened, believe it or not, quite fortuitously. Since there are now 5 T20 competitions, sorting out which teams are eligible and want to compete in which is quite complicated and time consuming. Having the teams in alphabetical order helps and it was simply not noticed that what the effect this had on the subsequent draw. Now that I see it, I take the point and will take it on board. I would however point out that I feel this is probably not the first time this has happened and no-one raised it before.

What a cop out. Absolute and utter rubbish. Before I go on I'd love to know what the alphabetical issue happening 'quite fortuitously' is supposed to mean as that was never explained. Quite fortuitously can only mean 'intentionally' as far as I can see as there is a subsequent admission that the teams were placed in alphabetical order.

Sorting out which teams are eligible and want to compete in which competition is too complicated and time consuming to be able to add drawing a few bits of paper out of a hat onto the end of it? More so than restructuring leagues twice over and doing all the 'main' cup draws? It's still the 5th of February and this issue has been brought to light. Eligibility for competitions has been decided. More than enough time to sort out this fiasco. It would take all of 10 minutes each to redraw the competitions. Having the teams in alphabetical order helps and it wasn't noticed the effect it had on the the draw? Quite the admission of ineptitude, bad planning and utter disregard. Although I doubt it was meant as such.

And before anyone starts yes I know it's hard work being on committee's etc.. etc.. etc.. I get that. However this is a cop out.

The alphabetical issue happened quite fortuitously....
Sorting out what teams were in each competition took too long....
We purposely placed teams in alphabetical order...
We didn't know it would effect the draw....
This probably happened before and no one complained then....

I'm actually seriously annoyed at this now. This kind of bluff and bluster to try cover up something everyone can see right through is insulting to all our intelligence. Had those involved just admitted they blundered I would have said fair enough. The statement is an absolute joke. Have the balls to admit your mistakes and people will respect you a lot more for that than this clownish attempt to absolve yourself/yourselves.

TrueDub

Where is this quote from? Please always insert a link back to the original article when quoting like this.

crackit

Many apologies

Taken from the cricketleinster facebook page:

With the OCC today commenting on Alphabet Gate (http://www.cricketleinster.ie/news/2013-rsa-tillain-cup-draw), we can now move on to a preview of the LCU 20/20 Cup, sponsored by the Russell Court Hotel.

Will Adamstown get home games for all matches? Will Railway Union be at the bottom of the draw? Will Balbriggan be playing Clontarf? All will be revealed later on today

Click the link for the OCC comment. It's Michael Sharp replying to a couple of queries in a thread for one of the competitions in question. I hope that clears it up.

djimi

Is he really trying to suggest that every draw just happened to come out in alphabetical order? If they couldnt be bothered to actually do a proper draw then just admit to it; dont insult our intelligence like that...

crackit

He first says it happened 'quite fortuitously' implying that it was all just the luck of the draw.

Then a couple of sentences later he says it helps to place to have teams in alphabetical order. This implies what we all suspect and know, that they were placed in alphabetical order. That this happened would seem to be confirmed by the 'the effect on the subsequent draw was not noticed' remark. Which I read as meaning 'yes we placed them in alphabetical order but we didn't realise the effect it would have on the draw'.

It's all a load of rubbish. Even the fact that an incoherent and self contradictory reply in a comments section, rather than a concise, clear statement posted on the main page of the site, passes for an official OCC comment on the matter just shows what a joke it is.

D3PO

thats a shambles. They basically admit they didn't do an open draw because its too much hassle and sure its probably happened before and nobody complained (well thats alright then) . They should be ashamed of themselves, instead of an apology they instead decide to insult our intelligence.

its a ten minute job to redraw this openly and fairly. The OCC should be apologising putting their hands up and drawing this fairly.

TrueDub

There's really only one way to get this resolved properly.

1) Everyone who's a member of a club puts pressure on their club committee to have this addressed by the LCU.

2) The club reps on the LCU committee then raise it as a matter of urgency with the committee officers.

3) The LCU committee then decides whether to act or not.

Only if this is raised through the official channels will anything happen - otherwise it will be dismissed as "internet talk".

The mechanisms are there, they need to be used.

D3PO

TrueDub wrote: »

There's really only one way to get this resolved properly.

1) Everyone who's a member of a club puts pressure on their club committee to have this addressed by the LCU.

2) The club reps on the LCU committee then raise it as a matter of urgency with the committee officers.

3) The LCU committee then decides whether to act or not.

Only if this is raised through the official channels will anything happen - otherwise it will be dismissed as "internet talk".

The mechanisms are there, they need to be used.

we all know this however that shouldn't have to be the case. They didnt do a proper draw it shouldnt take an official approach to rectify it.

If this was the Senior Cup for example you would be damn sure it would be resolved in a jiffy with major embarrasment for all those involved in the original screw up. There wouldnt be a need for those clubs to go via official channels to have the right thing done.

Renno

Even the fact that an incoherent and self contradictory reply in a comments section, rather than a concise, clear statement posted on the main page of the site, passes for an official OCC comment on the matter just shows what a joke it is.

Purely on this point - I asked the OCC to comment purely on the comments made on the website. I can put it up as an article if need be!

TrueDub

D3PO wrote: »

we all know this however that shouldn't have to be the case.

It shouldn't. But it will be. This is the only way, trust me. Doesn't have to be everyone, but the more that do it the more chance of it being addressed.

crackit

Renno wrote: »

Purely on this point - I asked the OCC to comment purely on the comments made on the website. I can put it up as an article if need be!

It's more the fact it's incoherent and contradicts itself that's the problem. It's a load of old waffle.

I can see the OCC/LCU not wanting to reply to every little comment made online and that's 100% spot on. You'd be mad to argue the toss with people online over everything.

However this is a bigger issue than internet cranks having a moan about something. The draws were not open or fairly made. This is an important issue that has been brought to light and needed to be addressed properly.

TrueDub is right in following his path is the only way anything will get done now. However I feel that it will be far too down the road by the time everything is sent and acknowledged by the powers that be and they'll say 'nothing we can do about it now'.

My bones of contention here are the OCC/LCU were too lazy to make proper draws when doing so would require minimal effort. And having been caught out on this point they hadn't the balls to admit and amend it but instead attempted to give wishywashy nonsense to excuse it. I'd have far more respect for someone who can put their hand up and admit they were wrong than someone who makes a shambling attempt to cover their tracks.