Automatic Cars

Farmer Pudsey

Are automatic cars much heavier on fuel than standard transmissions. Is there any other disadvantages other than the obivous. If a person completes there car test in one can they dive standard cars afterwards. Is insurance more expensive or is it the same.

ThreeLineWhip

If a person completes there car test in one can they dive standard cars afterwards.

No. They would have to do another test in a manual.

colm_mcm

Are automatic cars much heavier on fuel than standard transmissions.

depends on which type. A traditional one usually is

Is there any other disadvantages other than the obivous.
depends on what's obvious

If a person completes there car test in one can they dive standard cars afterwards.
no

Is insurance more expensive or is it the same.
if its mated to a bigger engine then yes

coylemj

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Is insurance more expensive or is it the same.

They don't ask and obviously don't care so it's the same. It's effectively standard on a lot of cars like Lexus (petrol) and E-class Mercs so it's more or less a given for certain models.

If you pass the test in an automatic there will be a restriction code on your licence which tells the cops and car hirers that you are not licensed to drive a manual. As stated above, you'd need to redo the test in a manual to get this code removed.

Matt Simis

FYI, dont call one or the other "standard". The "standard" option varies per car, with it actually being an automatic box on many many models now. Your definition of standard would not be the same as the next guys.

Automatics themselves are split into a variety of different competing technologies, some of which while commonly referred to as Automatics are infact technically not traditional type Automatics at all (ie DSG, SMG, DCT).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission


So in a nutshell, there are no direct answers to your questions.

dgt

It all depends on the car and application

I get normally 60-65 mpg in the Prius which is very good for a petrol Automatic.

The Prius uses a CVT basically it has no gears but variable ratios driven by a chain. They can be noisy when you plant the foot. But very relaxing to drive, as you feel no gear changes like dsg or torque converter.

Torque converter are the oldest auto and are very reliable, but hard on fuel.

Anyway these days they have caught up with manual boxes or in the case of the Volkswagen's 7 dpeed DSG actually claim better than the manual, there certainly won't be much in the difference.

The DSG boxes used in all of the Volkswagen Audi group cars have reliability issues, they have been forced to offer 10 years 100,000 mile warranty in the U.S and China, but of course in Europe we get a very unacceptable 3 years or 60,000 miles, unlimited for the first 3 years.

The 6 speed DSG needs oil change every 40,000 miles or it's guaranteed to die early, same with Audi's multitronics which had issues but are pretty much sorted from 08 on. In fact most Auto's need oil changes that I'm aware of. In regard to Volkswagen Audi Group cars, if that isn't on the service history then run.

Other issues with auto's can be a delay in pressing the accelerator to when power goes to the wheels, usually more obvious when slowing down with foot on brake then hit the power, can be a second delay or little longer and can be a pain in the ass. I noticed that in the DSG 6 speed, not sure if it's as much an issue today ? or with the 7 speed ?

Same delay in the Prius, but you adapt and one of the reasons I loved the spin in the Leaf so much, power instantly is really nice and useful.

Automatics also work best with torque, if the engine is fairly weak then it will always be at high revs increasing fuel consumption and it's annoying.

I found The DSG was hunting for gears too much, if I even tapped the accelerator it would drop a gear without need. I didn't like it but maybe a more powerful engine it would have been better. I couldn't climb a steep hill without having to select manual in the DSG or it would drop to say 3rd when I could climb in 4th. But again a more powerful engine with dsg might have been better.

Renault have dsg type dual clutch called dct ? and ford's is called powershift.

The best auto without doubt I find is Audi's multitronic, it even knew if I were going down a steep hill and was kind enough to change down to allow engine braking and climbed steep hills without fuss. But you must check for a good service record and gearbox oil changes.

Matt Simis

Deleted User wrote: »

The 6 speed DSG needs oil change every 40,000 miles or it's guaranteed to die early, same with Audi's multitronics which had issues but are pretty much sorted from 08 on. In fact most Auto's need oil changes that I'm aware of. In regard to Volkswagen Audi Group cars, if that isn't on the service history then run.

Bear in mind however that the VAG traditional type Autos (tiptronics etc) will not have any Oil change on the Service history, only the CVT types (multitronic) and DSG types will have specified Oil changes.

Obviously all gearboxes of any type need fluid changing periodically though, specified or not.

Matt Simis

Matt Simis wrote: »

Bear in mind however that the VAG traditional type Autos (tiptronics etc) will not have any Oil change on the Service history, only the CVT types (multitronic) and DSG types will have specified Oil changes.

Obviously all gearboxes of any type need fluid changing periodically though, specified or not.

Indeed good point.

One automatic I'd stay well away from are the automated manuals, they are supposed to be rubbish and I'd only consider one if you want a non Audi, VW, Seat, Skoda DSG or Ford or Volvo's Powershift.

Fiat, Toyota, and I think Opel ? have them, stay well away.

The torque converters though I don't really like, again you need a good powerful engine or it will drive you mad as they take a lot of power. One reason they are a fair bit harder on fuel. Though you can always convert to LPG, and it won't matter much and you'll still have diesel like fuel bills. The reason I say that is because seemingly it's much harder to find a diesel torque converter auto, or I've never looked hard enough.

galwaytt

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed good point.

One automatic I'd stay well away from are the automated manuals, they are supposed to be rubbish and I'd only consider one if you want a non Audi, VW, Seat, Skoda DSG or Ford or Volvo's Powershift.

Fiat, Toyota, and I think Opel ? have them, stay well away.

The torque converters though I don't really like, again you need a good powerful engine or it will drive you mad as they take a lot of power. One reason they are a fair bit harder on fuel. Though you can always convert to LPG, and it won't matter much and you'll still have diesel like fuel bills. The reason I say that is because seemingly it's much harder to find a diesel torque converter auto, or I've never looked hard enough.

Not so. My 2.2 TiD Saab is a torque convertor automatic and gets 38mpg+ commuting, 43mpg on a run. That's not outrageous tbh.

sunnysoutheast

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed good point.

One automatic I'd stay well away from are the automated manuals, they are supposed to be rubbish and I'd only consider one if you want a non Audi, VW, Seat, Skoda DSG or Ford or Volvo's Powershift.

Fiat, Toyota, and I think Opel ? have them, stay well away.

The torque converters though I don't really like, again you need a good powerful engine or it will drive you mad as they take a lot of power. One reason they are a fair bit harder on fuel. Though you can always convert to LPG, and it won't matter much and you'll still have diesel like fuel bills. The reason I say that is because seemingly it's much harder to find a diesel torque converter auto, or I've never looked hard enough.

The BMWs and Mercs are torque converter autos I think, albeit with lock-ups. Many modern BMW autos are as efficient, if not more so, than the manuals.

I have driven 116d and 318d 8-speed autos recently and, despite my initial thought that they have at least two gears too many, both were fantastic.

sunnysoutheast

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

The BMWs and Mercs are torque converter autos I think, albeit with lock-ups.

I have driven a 116d and a 318d 8-speed recently and, despite my initial thought that they have at least two gears two many, both were fantastic.

I'm sure they have improved but they would always be harder on fuel than the dual clutch. They would be better with the higher torque of diesels though.

One thing I forgot to mention in regard to the dual clutch DSG and probably the same for the DCT and powershift dual clutches. You can select manual mode also so if you find it changing down more than you like you can select manual or semi auto mode, it works well and I found myself using it a lot more than I would have with the multitronic.

Again Audi's multitronic was and is without doubt the best auto box I drove (Diesel) you can select a manual mode on them too.

Farmer Pudsey

Look lads I said I was lookin at a automatic for a learner driver I will not be buying a BMW or Saab more like a Yaris or Micra. It Ok found out most of what I needed elsewhere thank for all the help:cool:

firefly08

The torque converters though I don't really like, again you need a good powerful engine or it will drive you mad as they take a lot of power

+1. They do not work well with marginal engine power. I don't think it's so much that they sap power (although they do to some extent) but more because they are not very good at being in the optimal gear. You can drive around in a small engined manual car very comfortably by getting into the right gear just before you need to accelerate. In a traditional auto, you can't do that. You have to accelerate to make it drop a gear...you can't "queue up" the gear that you know you're going to need in a few seconds. So even though they actually change gears very quickly (faster than you can change in a manual), they still tend to feel sluggish unless the engine makes good torque.

Farmer Pudsey

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Look lads I said I was lookin at a automatic for a learner driver I will not be buying a BMW or Saab more like a Yaris or Micra. It Ok found out most of what I needed elsewhere thank for all the help:cool:

Did you ? that's news to me . perhaps someone deleted that part of your post ?

Matt Simis

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

The BMWs and Mercs are torque converter autos I think, albeit with lock-ups. Many modern BMW autos are as efficient, if not more so, than the manuals.

I have driven 116d and 318d 8-speed autos recently and, despite my initial thought that they have at least two gears too many, both were fantastic.

BMW make SMG and DCT "auto" type boxes too. not all with Torque Converters.
On the 8speeds and diesels.. you literally cannot cram enough gears in to a diesel car, the rubbish power spike is covered up nicely by a fast changing gear box with loads of gears to keep the engine in that little wedge of power. Great for economy too.

Ive never driven a CVT, but as Mad_Lad says it should be excellent with a diesel.

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you ? that's news to me . perhaps someone deleted that part of your post ?

Lol, nope he never said he was a Learner, he just thought he did. At best, it was vaguely alluded to.

Chris_Heilong

Matt Simis wrote: »

BMW make SMG and DCT "auto" type boxes too. not all with Torque Converters.
On the 8speeds and diesels.. you literally cannot cram enough gears in to a diesel car, the rubbish power spike is covered up nicely by a fast changing gear box with loads of gears to keep the engine in that little wedge of power. Great for economy too.

Ive never driven a CVT, but as Mad_Lad says it should be excellent with a diesel.


Lol, nope he never said he was a Learner, he just thought he did. At best, it was vaguely alluded to.

CVT's are smoother than Torque converter auto boxes, no gears so its more like an electrical car, I have both types of auto and the CVT is jolt free.

pajo1981

Matt Simis wrote: »

BMW make SMG and DCT "auto" type boxes too. not all with Torque Converters.
On the 8speeds and diesels.. you literally cannot cram enough gears in to a diesel car, the rubbish power spike is covered up nicely by a fast changing gear box with loads of gears to keep the engine in that little wedge of power. Great for economy too..

Absolutely nothing spikey about bmw diesel. Flat torque and linear power comparible to a petrol. Check out the graphs.

Matt Simis

pajo1981 wrote: »

Absolutely nothing spikey about bmw diesel. Flat torque and linear power comparible to a petrol. Check out the graphs.

Good god, please just no. Its a diesel, its a technical fact.
While Id usually go post graphs, quote axle torque figures, highlight the evolution of diesels and the effect of auto boxes and sequential turbos... its too late and cold in my house to be bothered. So a short story instead:


Was driving mothers 535d 2wks ago.. girlfriends asks "why does this car seems so laggy, I can hear the engine before it moves" - reply = this isnt a V8 petrol like our runabout. Also its an automatic, so double lag. Actually commented "you know on boards.ie people consider this the most awesomist lag-free diesel ever".

Smug laughing ensued.

naughtysmurf

I've booked an automatic Corolla or similar for a trip in the US later in the year & the website says 27mpg, I assume that's an american gallon so not really sure how it works out, maybe someone else on here can shed some light, doesn't sound hectic though

Merch

naughtysmurf wrote: »

I've booked an automatic Corolla or similar for a trip in the US later in the year & the website says 27mpg, I assume that's an american gallon so not really sure how it works out, maybe someone else on here can shed some light, doesn't sound hectic though

about 32.43 mpg or 8.71 L/100km
off the top of my head :pac:

naughtysmurf

Merch wrote: »

about 32.43 mpg or 8.71 L/100km
off the top of my head :pac:

Not hectic then

Merch

naughtysmurf wrote: »

Not hectic then

It doesnt seem so,
I knew US mpg figures were better than they seemed due to the US gallon being smaller (3.78 lts compared to 4.54 lts imp, and that is off the top of my head).
So 35 mpg US is 42 imp which doesnt seem too bad

multiply US values by 1.2
or divide the other way

thats by a quick divide 42 by 35, the original figures i got off an online convertor

keithclancy

Deleted User wrote: »

The DSG boxes used in all of the Volkswagen Audi group cars have reliability issues, they have been forced to offer 10 years 100,000 mile warranty in the U.S and China, but of course in Europe we get a very unacceptable 3 years or 60,000 miles, unlimited for the first 3 years.

Its Volkswagen AG (Shortened from Aktiengesellschaft)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktiengesellschaft

Del2005

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Look lads I said I was lookin at a automatic for a learner driver I will not be buying a BMW or Saab more like a Yaris or Micra. It Ok found out most of what I needed elsewhere thank for all the help:cool:

In small engined cars auto's will drink fuel.

naughtysmurf wrote: »

I've booked an automatic Corolla or similar for a trip in the US later in the year & the website says 27mpg, I assume that's an american gallon so not really sure how it works out, maybe someone else on here can shed some light, doesn't sound hectic though

Very few US cars are below 2l and even cars we have over here are usually crap there. Have hired a few Focus's over there and they are nowhere near a EU spec car

pajo1981

Matt Simis wrote: »

Good god, please just no. Its a diesel, its a technical fact.
While Id usually go post graphs, quote axle torque figures, highlight the evolution of diesels and the effect of auto boxes and sequential turbos... its too late and cold in my house to be bothered. So a short story instead:


Was driving mothers 535d 2wks ago.. girlfriends asks "why does this car seems so laggy, I can hear the engine before it moves" - reply = this isnt a V8 petrol like our runabout. Also its an automatic, so double lag. Actually commented "you know on boards.ie people consider this the most awesomist lag-free diesel ever".

Smug laughing ensued.

Its laggy because its turbo charged not because it's a diesel. And yes by the standards of turbo-diesels, lag in the bmws is minimal.

A bit disingenuous of you to compare it to a petrol V8.

Matt Simis

pajo1981 wrote: »

Its laggy because its turbo charged not because it's a diesel.

And its turbo charged because its a diesel. There is no point trying to separate them and Naturally Aspirated Diesels are dead. "Diesels" are all turbos now, god help you if you think removing the turbo makes it in any manner at all "better". Besides, we are discussing BMW Diesels and laggy power delivery, which isnt disputed by the above anyhow.
Turbo petrol 6 pots are no where near this laggy, not even close.

pajo1981 wrote: »

And yes by the standards of turbo-diesels, lag in the bmws is minimal.

Yeah sure is.. but you were the one saying its comparable to a petrol, not me. Which they are not, now you are saying they are "good for diesels" which is an entirely different claim and Im not disputing that.

pajo1981 wrote: »

Absolutely nothing spikey about bmw diesel. Flat torque and linear power comparible to a petrol. Check out the graphs.
A bit disingenuous of you to compare it to a petrol V8.

Comparing to a 30year older, more simplistic petrol with similar power isnt disingenous IMO. If a 21st Century combustion engine cannot compete in this specific metric, well then thats just the nature of diesel. Lol, 30year (if not 40) of advantage to the diesel and Im the one being disingenuous!

Besides the diesel is the Starship Enterprise vs the 1970s Space Shuttle V8 in terms of technology, cost, design etc. If you prefer I could compare it to the 530i I had or my similarly boosted twin turbo Audi S4, which had a smaller engine than the 535d and smaller turbos but far smoother power delivery (and more power).


BMW diesels are not magic, they are limited by the design of diesels like all others. BMW cleverly approach the problem by adding more turbos (or twin scroll turbos) and more gears (7 and 8speed).

The fact they do this proves the very point Im making, [BMW] diesels have spikey power delivery! They just hide it better.