Which Heating system for Refurb?

Theimprover

I am rufurbising my two storey block house with building on an extension, house is about 2500sq ft, I am gutting the whole inside, all that will be left is the external walls, roof and ceiling.
There is no heating system what so ever in the house at present or any insulation, i will be putting in all new windows and doing the best possible internal wall insulation.
I wont be digging up my floor so underground heating is out. I was thinking along the lines of maybe a wall heating system but like anything it will come down to costs.
Would love to hear some ideas and costs.

shane0007

If you are putting in a rad system, you will still be partly digging up the concrete floor for the ground floor. Lift floor boards for upstairs. Do not use a drop down system.

Lucena

I don't know if you've looked into it yet, but think about insulation first. There's no point having the best heating system in the world if the heat's flying out the doors, walls, roof etc.

Theimprover

shane0007 wrote: »

If you are putting in a rad system, you will still be partly digging up the concrete floor for the ground floor. Lift floor boards for upstairs. Do not use a drop down system.

I realise that, I will be doing most of the work myself except for plumbing and electrical but I'm not to keen on putting in rads, I will be doing an open plan system on the ground floor, want to put in a stove as well, but what type I don't know, open to suggestions.

shane0007

If you are not putting in rads or UFH, what lines are you thinking of? The only other is really electric.

Theimprover

Lucena wrote: »

I don't know if you've looked into it yet, but think about insulation first. There's no point having the best heating system in the world if the heat's flying out the doors, walls, roof etc.

As I said in op I will be insulating to the best possible way internally, my insulation system on the external walls internally will consist of a 110mm profile consisting of 50mm insulation/air-tight barrier (pro-clima)/25mm batten and 36mm insulated slab.

Theimprover

shane0007 wrote: »

If you are not putting in rads or UFH, what lines are you thinking of? The only other is really electric.

Wall heating system, don't know really how it works or the costs as I'm just starting to research it. I don't mind using rads upstairs but I wonder can both work together.

shane0007

If not rads or UFH then it will be electric. There are some very good ones & some very bad ones. The only real ones I had direct experience with are the Farho heaters. They are excellent & very cheap to run. Clients have been very happy with the results.

Merch

Lucena wrote: »

I don't know if you've looked into it yet, but think about insulation first. There's no point having the best heating system in the world if the heat's flying out the doors, walls, roof etc.

What they said

Theimprover wrote: »

As I said in op I will be insulating to the best possible way internally, my insulation system on the external walls internally will consist of a 110mm profile consisting of 50mm insulation/air-tight barrier (pro-clima)/25mm batten and 36mm insulated slab.

I'm thinking of insulating internally myself, do you have any links,

regarding your question in the OP
I suppose it depends on the location of the building and space on the plot.
eg
I assume you are asking what heating system to use, ie gas, oil, electric, or other solid fuel. Is that what you mean?
If so,
The heat source might also be determined by the usage, high use all day or intermittant use early and late but not all day and space for storage of fuel.

So if the garden is large, you might have space for storage of wood for a wood gasifiying burner, I'm not as convinced by pellets give they have to be kept moisture free/dry, butI haven't looked into it too much as I simply dont have the storage space.

If you have access to gas or not, its probably one of the cheapest at the moment, but if you're thinking renewable and cost, well theres no telling what will happen the cost and availability of oil or gas.

Maybe you could have a stove of some kind? (edit I see you mentioned that but mean that heats and you can use for cooking)

Just throwing ideas out there, but you would need a professional to determine your heat loss based on the proposed insulation and the your heating requirements, money well spent on good insulation fitted well could be one of the best paybacks over any timeframe as you could always change the heat source.

I still think its possible to fit insulation yourself, but I dont know how or if it is catered for in determining its BER rating, although I think the actual energy usage (real cost) is more important.

edit, the unit cost of electric is higher than gas, probably oil too, the only times it isnt is if something like a heat pump is used, the efficiency of them offsets the cost of electricity unit costs, however, it would not be something you could simply switch on, it would have to be on a lot of the time, at a lower temperature level (eg in an underfloor heating), so high occupancy would be complemented by this heating source, but again it is something that would have to be calculated what the demand/requirements are.

JohnnieK

shane0007 wrote: »

Do not use a drop down system.

Why is that?

JohnnieK

I've seen a wet wall heating system before, cant remember the make of it for the life of me.

Why dont you go for underfloor heating down stairs and either and underfloor heating or rad system upstairs?

Merch

I wasn't that sure of the reason against the drop down either?
I assume once the piping is all worked out, it wouldn't really matter (within reason, where it is going)
If anything, Id prefer it not buried underground though, I saw a relative had to dig up looking for leaks, looking back, I'd have isolated the pipework and started again as it was all under cement.

I would like underfloor, I am unsure if there are compatible oil/gas heating burners that operate at a lower temperature for use with underfloor heating, or maybe a lower output boiler??

Personally I dont have the space for a ground source even going straight down there wouldn't be room, and certainly nothing to get machinery in, assuming it was calculated and deemed worthy of ground source heating, it will probably depend on the OPs land/space.

It would require some digging though as proper (likely calculated insulation) would be essential.

The OP is in a good position, a blank canvas to work with, rather than retrofitting afterwards.

threeball

Theimprover wrote: »

Wall heating system, don't know really how it works or the costs as I'm just starting to research it. I don't mind using rads upstairs but I wonder can both work together.

Same as underfloor but on your wall. Its available in two systems, wet and dry. Wet is an 8mm or 12mm pipe applied to your wall and plastered over. Advantages are thermal mass while having a quick reaction time and can work on low temp so can be perfect to run with a heat pump. Disadvantages are there are not many plasterers with the equipment (sprayed on) to apply the plaster.
Dry system is a fermacell board with pipes prefitted. Mounted on battons or joists and skimmed over. Its very simple to use but has no thermal mass and is expensive. You can run alongside rads but you'll need a mixer valve as the water temp shouldn't exceed 40C.

Dtp79

JohnnieK wrote: »

Why is that?

Because drop systems are a disaster. Should only ever be used if rising floors is not an option. They are terrible for airlocking, sludge, and powerflushing. Only became popular because builders were too lazy to wait for plumbers to do a proper first fix in the boom time

sullzz

Theimprover wrote: »

Wall heating system, don't know really how it works or the costs as I'm just starting to research it. I don't mind using rads upstairs but I wonder can both work together.

Is this the type of system your talking about
http://www.invisibleheating.co.uk/ihs_product_portfolio/wall_heating/

ccsolar

Theimprover wrote: »

I am rufurbising my two storey block house with building on an extension, house is about 2500sq ft, I am gutting the whole inside, all that will be left is the external walls, roof and ceiling.
There is no heating system what so ever in the house at present or any insulation, i will be putting in all new windows and doing the best possible internal wall insulation.
I wont be digging up my floor so underground heating is out. I was thinking along the lines of maybe a wall heating system but like anything it will come down to costs.
Would love to hear some ideas and costs.

Hi theimprover
As you are going dry lining your house with battens and insulation why don't you run the pipes for your rads along the wall before you dry line .
The plumbing is then hidden behind the slab, use multi-layer piping so you won't have any joints and make sure the carpenter knows where the piping is when he is fitting the skirting.
Don't forget to apply for your Seai grants for dry lining and heating this will help to reduce the cost.
Cc

shane0007

JohnnieK wrote: »

Why is that?

Oh so your the one that was going round installing them!!! The boom boom system.
Nightmare systems. They are usually accompanied by the semi-sealed system fed from the cwst just in case the f & e tank didn't have enough agua in it.
Each radiator is a u-bend. Flow restrictions! You can always tell with a powerful Powerflushing machine when in dump mode whether or not a heating system has a good flow rate. A drop down has one of the worst. The 1/2" drop down usually serves 2 rads also one on each side of the wall. Hmmm.... it saves on the cost of qualpex!

JohnnieK

I've never had an issue with drop down systems to be honest with you. I've had more issues with pipe's buried in cement.

Most industrial installations would also be drop down system on the ground floor and then up trough the slab on floors after that. The main problem I see with drop down systems are systems that are not treated and then you will get issues. Also no drain points at low levels. 15mm supplying two radiators (depending on there size) coming from a 22mm main would be plenty.

Theimprover

ccsolar wrote: »

Hi theimprover
As you are going dry lining your house with battens and insulation why don't you run the pipes for your rads along the wall before you dry line .
The plumbing is then hidden behind the slab, use multi-layer piping so you won't have any joints and make sure the carpenter knows where the piping is when he is fitting the skirting.
Don't forget to apply for your Seai grants for dry lining and heating this will help to reduce the cost.
Cc

I am the carpenter and builder;), will be doing all the works myself. I dont really want to use rads on the ground floor as i am going for open plan but I think the wall heating system could be too expensive.
Might look into a boiler stove, think this system would be reasonable enough.

Theimprover

Thanks for all the replies.
Think the wall heating system is gone out the window:rolleyes:.
If I go for a multi fuel boiler stove what other options do I have to heat my house with out having to light the stove? It can be a bit cold in the mornings in the summer so it would be good to have another option other than lighting the stove and also to heat the water for shower's etc.

Merch

shane0007 wrote: »

Oh so your the one that was going round installing them!!! The boom boom system.
Nightmare systems. They are usually accompanied by the semi-sealed system fed from the cwst just in case the f & e tank didn't have enough agua in it.
Each radiator is a u-bend. Flow restrictions! You can always tell with a powerful Powerflushing machine when in dump mode whether or not a heating system has a good flow rate. A drop down has one of the worst. The 1/2" drop down usually serves 2 rads also one on each side of the wall. Hmmm.... it saves on the cost of qualpex!

Sounds like my CH so, does that mean it would be difficult to flush?
It works fine, but maybe it is subject to problems Im not aware of, could sludge or residue accumulate in the drop down pipes/rads?

one problem i found with mine was a complete lack of drains, isolation points and CH fed from cwst? which I found odd? If the check valve went I could be brushing my teeth with rad water

ccsolar wrote: »

Hi theimprover
As you are going dry lining your house with battens and insulation why don't you run the pipes for your rads along the wall before you dry line .
The plumbing is then hidden behind the slab, use multi-layer piping so you won't have any joints and make sure the carpenter knows where the piping is when he is fitting the skirting.
Don't forget to apply for your Seai grants for dry lining and heating this will help to reduce the cost.
Cc

I know this is obvious, but Id thoroughly insulate the pipes while you have access, and Id make as few joints as possible and even then Id keep a record of where everything is.

shane0007

Merch wrote: »

Sounds like my CH so, does that mean it would be difficult to flush?
It works fine, but maybe it is subject to problems Im not aware of, could sludge or residue accumulate in the drop down pipes/rads?

one problem i found with mine was a complete lack of drains, isolation points and CH fed from cwst? which I found odd? If the check valve went I could be brushing my teeth with rad water

If the non-return valve has failed then yes you are I'm afraid.
Weaker flushing machine really struggle with flushing them successfully. Their pump motors are just too small, circa 350w motors. My one has an 1,100w motor so it can generate enough force to drive the sludge back up the wall back to the machine.

shane0007

shane0007 wrote: »

Oh so your the one that was going round installing them!!! The boom boom system.
Nightmare systems. They are usually accompanied by the semi-sealed system fed from the cwst just in case the f & e tank didn't have enough agua in it.
Each radiator is a u-bend. Flow restrictions! You can always tell with a powerful Powerflushing machine when in dump mode whether or not a heating system has a good flow rate. A drop down has one of the worst. The 1/2" drop down usually serves 2 rads also one on each side of the wall. Hmmm.... it saves on the cost of qualpex!

What your describing is a badly designed heating system which is defective due to a bad installer, drop systems work very well when done correctly and would have good movement round the circuit.

shane0007

gary71 wrote: »

What your describing is a badly designed heating system which is defective due to a bad installer, drop systems work very well when done correctly and would have good movement round the circuit.

I would have to disagree. Water will always try to flow through the path of least resistance. Every drop down radiator whether fed from a 1/2" or 3/4" primary circuit will offer a restriction to the flow. To overcome this & force the flow through that restriction means in extreme balancing of the properly installed upstairs circuit & dhw cylinder.
Ultimately a drop down system is a poor design from the start even when properly installed.

All my experience is on drop systems and I'v never found them to be a problem, with the amount of buried pipework in this country and the mayhem it has caused, I would have a drop system all day everyday, in my own house everything is buried and leaking so come summer I will dust down my benders and plumb a drop system in copper (purely because it's what I know).

Merch

shane0007 wrote: »

If the non-return valve has failed then yes you are I'm afraid.
Weaker flushing machine really struggle with flushing them successfully. Their pump motors are just too small, circa 350w motors. My one has an 1,100w motor so it can generate enough force to drive the sludge back up the wall back to the machine.

I am thinking of fitting a seperate CH header tank that is completely independant of the rest of the cold water, would that be a good/preferable idea?
My mother got her old galvanised tank replaced by a plastic one, I was a bit unhappy to see they removed the old header tank for the heating and just connected it to the new plastic CWST. To add insult to injury, they drilled a hole in the old heating header tank to make it unuseable???

sullzz

Merch wrote: »

I am thinking of fitting a seperate CH header tank that is completely independant of the rest of the cold water, would that be a good/preferable idea?
My mother got her old galvanised tank replaced by a plastic one, I was a bit unhappy to see they removed the old header tank for the heating and just connected it to the new plastic CWST. To add insult to injury, they drilled a hole in the old heating header tank to make it unuseable???

Why not seal the system ?

Merch

sullzz wrote: »

Why not seal the system ?

Seal the system? I assume it was sealed, the water supply for the central heating is through a check valve and an orange handle valve, I had a look and their is a 1/2" pipe coming out of the cwst that feeds both the ensuite shower and tees off to feed the fill loop for the CH. Is that not sealed??

Or maybe its semi sealed? as the hot water expansion is into the cwst? I often wondered why this wouldn't be replaced by another expansion vessel. Not sure what the advantage of not putting an expansion vessel on (the hot water)there would be? but the HW is seperate to the CH. I should not have had that last glass of wine

Theimprover

Any ideas to my post on another source of heating as well as the boiler stove?

sullzz

Merch wrote: »

Seal the system? I assume it was sealed, the water supply for the central heating is through a check valve and an orange handle valve, I had a look and their is a 1/2" pipe coming out of the cwst that feeds both the ensuite shower and tees off to feed the fill loop for the CH. Is that not sealed??

Or maybe its semi sealed? as the hot water expansion is into the cwst? I often wondered why this wouldn't be replaced by another expansion vessel. Not sure what the advantage of not putting an expansion vessel on (the hot water)there would be? but the HW is seperate to the CH. I should not have had that last glass of wine

If you have a supply from a tank with a gate valve and NRV its semi sealed , I'd replace this with a filling loop

Merch

sullzz wrote: »

If you have a supply from a tank with a gate valve and NRV its semi sealed , I'd replace this with a filling loop

Advantages?
I was thinking of putting in a small header tank for when any chemical treatments were required, I did add an inhibitor and it was a pain in the asre doing it through the rad.
The tank would be smaller (lower) than the cwst, so I think I'd have to raise it up to the same level of the cwst, I've never been happy that it was built this way (among a few other things, some mentioned below)
whats the advantage of the filling loop? other than raising the pressure to correct level? over the above.
I did my own calculation on the pressure achievable at the heights involved and the pressure is just over a bar, this reflects the gauge reading.

Personally I think all of the above should have been installed from day 1 also (filling loop/seperate header tank, and bloody drain valves)

shane0007

Merch wrote: »

Advantages?
I was thinking of putting in a small header tank for when any chemical treatments were required, I did add an inhibitor and it was a pain in the asre doing it through the rad.
The tank would be smaller (lower) than the cwst, so I think I'd have to raise it up to the same level of the cwst, I've never been happy that it was built this way (among a few other things, some mentioned below)
whats the advantage of the filling loop? other than raising the pressure to correct level? over the above.
I did my own calculation on the pressure achievable at the heights involved and the pressure is just over a bar, this reflects the gauge reading.

Personally I think all of the above should have been installed from day 1 also (filling loop/seperate header tank, and bloody drain valves)

A semi sealed system will never permit a decent pressure level for the advantages of a pressurised system as it should be. You will need a head height of 10m to achieve 1 bar of pressure so unless you live in a 3 or 4 storey house, then you will realistically achieve approx 0.5 bar.
Connecting to a small header tank will just top up the system hiding leaks.
Fully pressurize the system, you will know if you have a leak. Better to know & find it than ignore & leave.
Finally, more pressure = more force to drive the heat around the system.

sullzz

+1 on what Shane just said , if you are looking for an easy way to add inhibitor , fit a magnaclean filter not only will it protect your system but it is very handy as a dosing unit , it holds exactly the content amount of an average bottle of inhibitor

Merch

shane0007 wrote: »

A semi sealed system will never permit a decent pressure level for the advantages of a pressurised system as it should be. You will need a head height of 10m to achieve 1 bar of pressure so unless you live in a 3 or 4 storey house, then you will realistically achieve approx 0.5 bar.
Connecting to a small header tank will just top up the system hiding leaks.
Fully pressurize the system, you will know if you have a leak. Better to know & find it than ignore & leave.
Finally, more pressure = more force to drive the heat around the system.

Ok, I must have made an error, I worked it out again and 10m seems right for 1bar.
10*1000*9.8 = 98000 Pa or .98 Bar.
3 *1000*9.8= 29400 Pa or .3bar
There is only a 3 metre difference max between the boiler and the bottom of the tank. But the gauge is saying 1-1.2 bar.

The system was always filled by the cwst, and never by a filling loop, there is a check valve but also a valve shutting off the supply, so it wouldnt be filled automatically, there was a leak before but that has been repaired, it was the summer valve weeping, recently it started flowing a bit more.

I mostly wanted a seperate tank for putting in chemicals as needed, instead of having to drain the cwst.
I do want a filling loop, but suprised it wasn't built in at the start.
The thing is, it used to manage 1.5bar, now it manages 1.2 (just checked it) without being refilled.

Merch

sullzz wrote: »

+1 on what Shane just said , if you are looking for an easy way to add inhibitor , fit a magnaclean filter not only will it protect your system but it is very handy as a dosing unit , it holds exactly the content amount of an average bottle of inhibitor

I was thinking of something like that alright, I was recommended to just get a powerflush instead, I thought it might be a good idea and get rid of any crap in the CH water over time, even gradually. I drained it a few times to replace a few rads and it always came out with stuff in it, not totally black but completely mixed in with the water.

All my rads heat up fine, so i dont think I have terrible sludge in there, but there must be drop downs as have read they are called in the downstairs circuit.

I looked it up and its recommended to put it on the return line, unfortunately, there is hardly any exposed piping on the return line, it just comes out of the ceiling into the boiler, same in the hotpress, even the supply side is pretty short and behind the tank (poor access).
(I will get one in the future, I was thinking of having the boiler replaced, but the cost will be too much right now, so I think I might get it moved to the wall beside its current location, and get them to leave space to extend the supply and return pipes beside the boiler, where a filter could then be fitted.)

What pressure would a pressurised system operate at? I dont think my heating ever went much over 1.5 bar originally. Im not sure how they pressurised it unless they charged the expansion vessel while the pipes were full? or pressurised it by temporarily using a connection that was planned for something else and later refitted it for its purpose, as there are no drains or other connections that could be used, or anything blanked that looks like it was used for that purpose.

sullzz

About 1.5bar is ideal to pressurise your system to ( when cold) , the ideal place for the filter to be fitted is on the return pipe as close to the boiler as possible .

shane0007

Merch wrote: »

All my rads heat up fine, so i dont think I have terrible sludge in there, but there must be drop downs as have read they are called in the downstairs circuit.

Most people when checked rads instinctively feel the top of the rad where sludge will never be. Always feel the bottom middle of the radiator for cold/colder spots. Bleed the rad from the bottom of the rad by
cranking open a joint to check the colour.

Merch wrote: »

What pressure would a pressurised system operate at? I dont think my heating ever went much over 1.5 bar originally. Im not sure how they pressurised it unless they charged the expansion vessel while the pipes were full? or pressurised it by temporarily using a connection that was planned for something else and later refitted it for its purpose, as there are no drains or other connections that could be used, or anything blanked that looks like it was used for that purpose.

I would doubt they filled the system via mains when it is semi-sealed, so I would think you have a faulty gauge.

Merch

sullzz wrote: »

About 1.5bar is ideal to pressurise your system to ( when cold) , the ideal place for the filter to be fitted is on the return pipe as close to the boiler as possible .

There is not enough room anywhere for a filter, but I am (for the future) thinking of upgrading the kitchen (its a while off), maybe putting some insulated plasterboard up to beef up the insulation, I was going to work around the boiler, but began to think to move it anyway. If I got someone to remove and refit it (its a while off in the future to do this, so I may end up actually replacing the boiler by that time) I could include a space for a filter. I plan to see what boilers I'd consider, look for a template for their mounting and reposition the current boiler so that if a new one was only installed later, no considerable reworking would have to be done to fit it and that there would be plenty of room for piping to a different boiler, plus maybe build in drains and pressure valve overflow while a kitchen is being installed instead of later. Thats the plan, Its a bit off.

shane0007 wrote: »

Most people when checked rads instinctively feel the top of the rad where sludge will never be. Always feel the bottom middle of the radiator for cold/colder spots. Bleed the rad from the bottom of the rad by
cranking open a joint to check the colour.
I would doubt they filled the system via mains when it is semi-sealed, so I would think you have a faulty gauge.

I have checked the top and the middle bottom, only one rad was cooler there, but not significantly, it could be as I have that rad mostly on a lower setting. The old gauge was replaced, I was thinking of putting one in the hotpress and adding a filling loop, there is access to the mains from above the hotpress (cwst)