Speed work in the wind

average_runner

Hi All;

Wanted to start a thread on this topic, considering the weather conditions for the next few weeks apparently.

For me, i cant get to a track and all my runs are done at lunch time in Clontarf as cant run in the evening as have a 9 week old boy and 2 year old daughter, so all hands on deck there for a little bit longer, till he settles.

I mainly run on the sea front but yesterday went to fairview park for 10x400m workout.

I have a tempo due to but not sure how to do it in these condtions.


So what advise do people have in general and not specific towards me.

Thanks

RayCun

Run by effort, and be honest with yourself. You'll run slower into the wind, on a bad surface, or for other environmental reasons than you would in 'normal' conditions, so don't worry too much about hitting the times exactly.
BUT your race will not be on a bouncy track on a calm day in perfect conditions. You will race into the wind sometimes, you'll have hills, potholes, other things to contend with. There is a difference between 'normal' and 'ideal'.
A tempo session is going to be difficult any day you do it, and you'll be looking for excuses to slow down. Don't let the wind be an excuse.

menoscemo

Just run at tempo effort and accept that the pace will be slower than normal when you are into the wind.
I was on the track last night and my group was doing our intervals about 10 seconds/mile slower than normal. C'est la vie.

If you worry about holding a specific pace in these conditions you'll likely blow the session early and ruin the whole thing.

nerraw1111

I was reading Jack Daniel's last night who said to give tempos a miss if the weather is too windy or the route is too hilly.

I'm on the same week as you AR, and was reading about the planned tempo session last night. I'm open to correction on it but I'm 90% sure he says to give the session a miss if the weather isn't playing ball.

The idea being that the session is designed to have you working at a constant effort for the 40 minutes and wind/hills ruin that.

jeffontour

nerraw1111 wrote: »

The idea being that the session is designed to have you working at a constant effort for the 40 minutes and wind/hills ruin that.

I had a steady run on the cards last night, a time trial workout. I knew the wind would be a factor but as others have said I just ran to effort, HR, not my own perceived effort. Sure the pace was off what my plan suggested but the effort was spot on.

I'm no coach but I believe that we live in the real world(most of anyhow ) and race in the real world. So train in the real world and deal with what it presents you.

I don't decide not to race if the weather conditions don't suit me so see great benefit in knowing I have trained in all sorts of conditions.

KielyUnusual

I run out that way a lot as well. You'll feel every bit of the wind running along that coast path out in Clontarf. I ran an 8 mile marathon paced session out there last year on a windy day and it's one of the toughest sessions I've ever done. I'd stick to the park where there's at least a small bit of shelter and run the speed sessions on effort as the others have said.

woodchopper

Dont be slave to a training programme. Try a fartlek when the wind has been the way it is. Its the accumulation of effort in workouts that improves fitness levels.

TFBubendorfer

I had the same problem this morning but decided to go ahead with the workout because it might be just as windy on goal race day, and then you'd better be prepared for that.

Besides, my former coach always advised me to play around with pace a bit (he disliked evenly paced long intervals), and running some stretches into the wind and some against the wind provide a natural playground for this.

I didn't get too hung up on pace though and was working mainly on feel.

PaulieC

the problem with today's wind is that no matter what direction you are going, it's blowing against you :rolleyes:

dna_leri

nerraw1111 wrote: »

I was reading Jack Daniel's last night who said to give tempos a miss if the weather is too windy or the route is too hilly.

I'm on the same week as you AR, and was reading about the planned tempo session last night. I'm open to correction on it but I'm 90% sure he says to give the session a miss if the weather isn't playing ball.

The idea being that the session is designed to have you working at a constant effort for the 40 minutes and wind/hills ruin that.

I must go back and read JD again - I did not realise he was such a wuss. Maybe he is referring to extremes of heat and cold but in Ireland if you duck a session for the wind it does not get done.

Sometimes I will juggle a Tuesday session with a Thursday one if I think the conditions are going to improve but after that, turn your head to the side to inhale if the wind is too strong and suck it up.

jeffontour

PaulieC wrote: »

the problem with today's wind is that no matter what direction you are going, it's blowing against you :rolleyes:

Sounds like you need to turn the fan on that treadmill down!

PaulieC

jeffontour wrote: »

Sounds like you need to turn the fan on that treadmill down!

I wish I had one for days like this...although I'd use it just for 2 minutes and get bored

dev123

I could have done with this thread yesterday! Long run with planned MP miles into the teeth of the wind. Slaved myself to the garmin and calved at about the half way point. I was fairly dejected on the way home but lesson learned.

drquirky

menoscemo wrote: »

Just run at tempo effort and accept that the pace will be slower than normal when you are into the wind.
I was on the track last night and my group was doing our intervals about 10 seconds/mile slower than normal. C'est la vie.

If you worry about holding a specific pace in these conditions you'll likely blow the session early and ruin the whole thing.

Good to know on that Meno, seeing as we were on the same track! I was kinda stressing about fairly slow splits in relation to the seriously high effort I was feeling- your post kinda put the whole thing in perspective!

menoscemo

drquirky wrote: »

Good to know on that Meno, seeing as we were on the same track! I was kinda stressing about fairly slow splits in relation to the seriously high effort I was feeling- your post kinda put the whole thing in perspective!

I saw ya man, the important thing is that you were working hard and you sure looked like you were . We were using a big group for shelter and taking our turns at the front.

nerraw1111

dna_leri wrote: »

I must go back and read JD again - I did not realise he was such a wuss. Maybe he is referring to extremes of heat and cold but in Ireland if you duck a session for the wind it does not get done.

Sometimes I will juggle a Tuesday session with a Thursday one if I think the conditions are going to improve but after that, turn your head to the side to inhale if the wind is too strong and suck it up.

I think you have slightly misinterpreted Jack Daniels or myself.

It isn’t about a lack of HTFU or moaning about the weather. I’m talking about a specific type of session, a forty minute tempo at just above threshold pace, that is supposed to be a run at the same speed for 40 minutes.

The wind may impact on one’s ability to do maintain the same speed. It’s not about effort or HR. So if you can’t run a 40 minute tempo at the same speed due to the wind, do a different session and juggle the training plan. The session is simply a waste of time otherwise.

JD, from what I can tell, only mentions that this session should be dropped if the wind is pretty strong. To be fair, the wind isn't normally this strong and can only think of perhaps a couple of occasions in the past year where it was this strong.

Again, open to correction to this.

Krusty_Clown

nerraw1111 wrote: »

I think you have slightly misinterpreted Jack Daniels or myself.

It isn’t about a lack of HTFU or moaning about the weather. I’m talking about a specific type of session, a forty minute tempo at just above threshold pace, that is supposed to be a run at the same speed for 40 minutes.

The wind may impact on one’s ability to do maintain the same speed. It’s not about effort or HR. So if you can’t run a 40 minute tempo at the same speed due to the wind, do a different session and juggle the training plan. The session is simply a waste of time otherwise.

JD, from what I can tell, only mentions that this session should be dropped if the wind is pretty strong. To be fair, the wind isn't normally this strong and can only think of perhaps a couple of occasions in the past year where it was this strong.

Again, open to correction to this.

I read that section recently as well. I think dna_leri may be slightly correct also; Jack hasn't spent much time in Ireland! Over here, with the unpredictability of the weather (which isn't such a big problem in the US) you can't really afford to put off sessions because of wind. Jack Daniels does advocate doing a lot of training on treadmills though, both for uphill work (without the stresses of downhill) and for accurately controlling pace in pace sessions.

Coming into work on the motorcycle this morning, it was being blow all over the road, so I figured I'd ditch my 4x2 mile tempo in favour of a 20 mile long run. Now I'm thinking I may just run the 2 miles to a nearby gym, run the tempo sections on a wind-free treadmill, and then run home, but the idea just seems a little..... strange..

average_runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I read that section recently as well. I think dna_leri may be slightly correct also; Jack hasn't spent much time in Ireland! Over here, with the unpredictability of the weather (which isn't such a big problem in the US) you can't really afford to put off sessions because of wind. Jack Daniels does advocate doing a lot of training on treadmills though, both for uphill work (without the stresses of downhill) and for accurately controlling pace in pace sessions.

Coming into work on the motorcycle this morning, it was being blow all over the road, so I figured I'd ditch my 4x2 mile tempo in favour of a 20 mile long run. Now I'm thinking I may just run the 2 miles to a nearby gym, run the tempo sections on a wind-free treadmill, and then run home, but the idea just seems a little..... strange..

A treadmill is an idea, but just sounds painful. Something i will think about.

tunguska

nerraw1111 wrote: »

I was reading Jack Daniel's last night who said to give tempos a miss if the weather is too windy or the route is too hilly.

I'm on the same week as you AR, and was reading about the planned tempo session last night. I'm open to correction on it but I'm 90% sure he says to give the session a miss if the weather isn't playing ball.

The idea being that the session is designed to have you working at a constant effort for the 40 minutes and wind/hills ruin that.

+1
I agree with JD on this one. Cancelled a fair few sessions last year because of high winds. Hit the treadmill instead, which was grand, can get a great workout if you jack up the incline. Absolutley soul destroying running up a hill into a gale and feeling like you're barely moving. It has nothing to do with being a wuss or whatever, its training smart.

tunguska

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Now I'm thinking I may just run the 2 miles to a nearby gym, run the tempo sections on a wind-free treadmill, and then run home, but the idea just seems a little..... strange..

If you put the incline up to 8%, the speed up to 13.0km/hr, run at this speed for 15mins and do that 4 times(4 x 15min) all in all(with 3 mins recovery between)thats a great workout, trust me.
The wind today and yesterday is different league to what we normally get and tomorrow is meant to be even worse.

Krusty_Clown

tunguska wrote: »

If you put the incline up to 8%, the speed up to 13.0km/hr, run at this speed for 15mins and do that 4 times(4 x 15min) all in all(with 3 mins recovery between)thats a great workout, trust me.
The wind today and yesterday is different league to what we normally get and tomorrow is meant to be even worse.

I was thinking of having it at an incline of 2.6 and running at 16.7km/hour to simulate around 5:50/mile (which I think is what I inferred from his conversion table), for 4 x 12 minutes (2 mins recovery). Sound about right? Don't have the book in front of me.

wrstan

Really interesting thread, and so topical. I wonder how far down it'll be come August! - a long way I hope

I don't mind running in the rain or the heat, in fact I quite like both, but I really don't like running in the wind. For what it's worth, my view is that it is never a good idea to can a session (unless it is just not feasible or if it can be easily rescheduled), but it is always good practice to be able to modify a session to respond to conditions, how you feel etc.. For example, I tried to run a 6k tempo session on Monday evening, but it was crazy with the gusts that were hitting me and my pace was fluctuating all over the place even over 10 or 20m. I ended up doing long intervals instead which were more like a fartlek session alright. It was a pretty horrible session, and far from ideal, but I know I worked hard and it defintiely wasn't wasted miles.

One other thing to consider is the increased potential for injury in these conditions. I definitely felt that I was constantly changing my stride and cadence in response to the gusts and change in pace, and as a result not always hitting the ground with my usual rythm. As a result the impact sometimes came earlier or later than expected. I definitely felt a jarring of my neck by the end of the session, which thankfully didnt develop, but has made me a bit more cautious.

tunguska

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I was thinking of having it at an incline of 2.6 and running at 16.7km/hour to simulate around 5:50/mile (which I think is what I inferred from his conversion table), for 4 x 12 minutes (2 mins recovery). Sound about right? Don't have the book in front of me.

To be honest I dont really go by the figures on the table as, for whatever reason, they dont seem to sync up. Personally I just follow the overall structure of the session as laid out in the book( that 4 x 15mins session is in there)and figure out the right pace based on feel and a heartrate monitor.

nerraw1111

I might give the threadmill a go tonight given the conditions.

The plan calls for 40 mins at around tempo pace. So do I just put the threadmill at an incline of 10% and set the right speed?

tunguska

nerraw1111 wrote: »

I might give the threadmill a go tonight given the conditions.

The plan calls for 40 mins at around tempo pace. So do I just put the threadmill at an incline of 10% and set the right speed?

I think 10% incline is too steep. I've found through a lot of experimentation that between 6 - 8% is ideal. Then you could play around with the speed and see what feels right for that session. Roughly speaking though I think 8% incline @ 12km/hr should do the job.