[Constitutional Convention] Other items for the convention to cover

Annasopra

This is a thread for people to list items they would like the Constitutional Convention to discuss. I don't want to backseat mod but would politely suggest that this thread would be used only for the purposes of creating a list rather than discussing the merits of individual suggestions.

These are my suggestions;

* Seanad reform or abolishment
* Remove the time limit on divorce in the constitution
* Repeal the 8th amendment on abortion
* A general look at improving human rights and equality provisions in the constitution

oscarBravo

Remove the religious mumbo-jumbo in the preamble. It's entirely at odds with the constitution of an inclusive, secular democracy.

P_1

Introduce a merit based minimum criteria to the selection of public officials
Remove all references to religion
Remove all references to gender
Increase the voting franchise

Cookie_Monster

As I said in the other thread:

what about removal of references to God/religion in the Constitution?
The opening is very clearly catholic/christian oreientated:

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,

while later articles state there is religious freedom. clearly not if the entire document is written under a christian god ethos

Religious freedom: A citizen's freedom of religious conscience, practice, and worship is guaranteed, "subject to public order and morality", by Article 44.2.1°. The state may not "endow" any religion (Article 44.2.2°), nor discriminate on religious grounds (Article 44.2.3°).

And since it's topical at the moment and the govenrment are clearly going to make a hash of any legislation what about the abortion isssue, any discussion around removing this ridiculous prohibition?

Prohibition of abortion: Abortion is prohibited by Article 40.3.3°, except in cases in which there is a threat to the life of the mother. However, this prohibition may be lawfully circumvented as it is expressly stated not to interfere with the right to travel abroad; there also exists a qualified right to obtain and distribute information of "services lawfully available in another state" (such as abortion).

Also:
removal of the age limit for the presidency, or rather set it at 18 like everything else.

RangeR

<following>

This was a thread I was waiting to make, after we got our forum [if] setup. But I' likey

Manach

An amendment on tax rates and a limit to the amount that the State is allowed to either extract/spend especially in the context of the family home.

RangeR

Mine, so far

• When the Irish people vote in a referendum, It's not continually put to us until Government get the answer they want. There has to be a determinate gap between votes [years]. And no changing tiny things and say it's a new vote. If the substantial substance is the same, it's the fookin same.
• The protectors of our nation [The Emergency Services] should have a constitutionally protected lower quota level, to ENSURE that the public are adequately protected. Say, 1 member per 200 citizens [split between the various member types]. For example, if the population is 4,000,000 people, them there would be a MINIMUM 20,000 members [split across their areas - Protection, Fire, Medical, Costal etc]. I'm not sure of the current levels, but you get the idea. If it's a case of money, then find the money somewhere else.
• I'm not in favour of any form of discrimination in the Good Book but something has to be done about unmarried fathers. End of. Maybe make a suggestion that it's put into law. But that is well out of our remit.

RangeR

Closer to the time, I'll put all these together and put up some sort of poll. Maybe bring the top 5 or 6 to the Convention. We [in our current form] just don't have the time to cover everything.

COYW

- Review of the social welfare system; with a view to cutting the benefits of those who refuse to take up work but are perfectly fit and healthy. Before anyone barks, there are plenty of people in this country who have milked the dole all their adult lives, even during the boom.

- Introduce a merit based minimum criteria to the selection of public officials. I echo the poster above on this point. We need to entice a better calibre of person into public office, breaking away from the traditional professions (teaching, ....)

Gloomtastic!

A review (reduction) of the number of public representatives per head of capita.

All reference to god/religion removed.

Removal of pensions from property rights.

Hourglass Shrugged

Make all state interference in business, e.g., tax breaks for certain business, illegal. Abolish the notion of corporation being legal entities in and of themselves. Abolish the notion of limited companies.

RangeR

Just to keep a note.

From Twitter
Include Parliamentary vs Presidential in Electoral Reform

RangeR

Hourglass Shrugged wrote: »

Make all state interference in business, e.g., tax breaks for certain business, illegal. Abolish the notion of corporation being legal entities in and of themselves. Abolish the notion of limited companies.

I can make the suggestion but I just don't see this happening. I think I can see where you are coming from but doing this will destroy all [or most] business in Ireland.

May I suggest that laws be amended to be tougher on rouge businesses?

RangeR

Article 28.4.1 wrote:

The Government shall be responsible to Dáil Éireann

Jesus Christ this has to change. The Government are elected representatives of the Citizens or the Irish Republic. They should be accountable to EVERY citizen, not just Dáil Éireann, who are effectively subservient to the Gov.

P_1

RangeR wrote: »

Jesus Christ this has to change. The Government are elected representatives of the Citizens or the Irish Republic. They should be accountable to EVERY citizen, not just Dáil Éireann, who are effectively subservient to the Gov.

Not too sure on that one Keith.

We're supposed to be a representative democracy, making the government directly accountable to every citizen would make us a direct democracy which is a fairly dangerous road to go down.

Chips Lovell

Remove the need to put it to a referendum every time the government signs an international treaty.

RangeR

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Remove the need to put it to a referendum every time the government signs an international treaty.

That's a tricky one. The reason there are referendums for International Treaty's is a by product of that treaty needing a Constitutional change.

All Constitutional changes need to go to the people, regardless what they are for [reducing voting age, alter the presidential term, international treaty, what have you].

Iwasfrozen

RangeR wrote: »

That's a tricky one. The reason there are referendums for International Treaty's is a by product of that treaty needing a Constitutional change.

All Constitutional changes need to go to the people, regardless what they are for [reducing voting age, alter the presidential term, international treaty, what have you].

But wouldn't it be possible to make the Dail sovereign rather then the people? Not saying I'd agree with it but it would be a possible solution.

Chips Lovell

Most other EU states seem to manage signing EU Treaties without having to put it to the people, so there should be some way of redrafting it to avoid the usual mess every few years. Treaties like that aren't the kind of question suited for a referendum.

Cork boy 55

Insert the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution into Irelands

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Cookie_Monster

Hourglass Shrugged wrote: »

Make all state interference in business, e.g., tax breaks for certain business, illegal. Abolish the notion of corporation being legal entities in and of themselves. Abolish the notion of limited companies.

what possible good could come of that. You would instantly destroy business in this country and no foreign / multinational company would touch us

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Insert the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution into Irelands

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

:pac: A step too far perhaps but I think our gun laws do need liberalisation.

An Coilean

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Insert the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution into Irelands

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

What possible attraction could this hold? Personally I am much happier knowing that the availability of arms is quite restricted. I would absoutly hate to live in a country where it would even be suggested that there needs to be armed gaurds in every school to keep kids safe.
Allowing an American style gun culture to develop in Ireland should be something the state works activly to prevent.

View

RangeR wrote: »

That's a tricky one. The reason there are referendums for International Treaty's is a by product of that treaty needing a Constitutional change.

Well, we can't say that for certain. The only EU treaty that we can certain had a constitutional issue was (one part) of the SEA in '87 as that is the only one the Supreme Court examined in depth (and that was regarded as a complete "bolt from the blue" judgment when delivered in a split decision). And the only ones we can be certain didn't have issues were the ones examined in the recent Pringle judgment.

In all other cases, the government has chosen to put them to the people thus bypassing the Supreme Court and answers (as opposed to questions) about constitutionality.

There is a fundamental problem with the constitution in that it does not contain a mechanism such as the Danes have where the Supreme Court can deliver a pre-judgment on questions of constitutionality prior to the government signing it nor does it allow for an easy method of questions of constitutionality to be resolved prior to a referendum (short of passing it by legislation and letting it be struck down which would lead to howls about the "undemocratic" decision to do so).

The constitution needs a better mechanism to resolve this. Either "international treaties are up to the Oireachtas" (which is basically what the constitution actually says) or "measures to achieve the objectives of the EU, as set out in article 3 TEU, are constitutional if the Oireachtas approves them" - which would mean unless they stray from that remit, the electorate doesn't need to worry about them. If they do, then that has to be addressed obviously.

View

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Insert the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution into Irelands

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

You want nutters shooting up your kid's school?

Sparks

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

:pac: A step too far perhaps but I think our gun laws do need liberalisation.

True, but most of us would settle for them just being written down in one place, instead of the 22 Acts, 60+ SIs and 2 EU regulations that currently have to all be read together to know what the law is. Which is something the Law Reform Commission has been calling for since 2004.

Mind you, when that's done, some interesting stuff will become obvious, such as the point that it is, strictly speaking, illegal to engage in any way in paintball in Ireland (whether taking part, running the business, or even sweeping the floor in the office) with penalties of up to seven years in jail and/or up to €20k in fines...

(see, our firearm laws are not exactly what you'd call... well-written. Well-intentioned, maybe, and the underlying ideas aren't all bad, but the implementation is waaaay off)

Sparks

As to suggestions:
- Make the party whip system unconstitutional
- Create a means for allowing the electorate to force a binding referendum on a current policy issue

Xantia

Remove the authority of county councils to collect and store the register of electors.
The register of electors should be handed to a non state, non council institution
which will not sell, lend or otherwise use your name address for any purpose other than to send you a voting card.

As things stand if you register your name for voting you automatically then have to pay home tax.

Loafing Oaf

How about we scrap the 1937 Constitution altogether and draw up a new one more appropriate to the 21st century? Save the hassle endless amendments to the current one.

Manach

It has proved rather resilant over the years, giving the concept of unenumerated rights so as to make it a living document. Given the ineptness of Mr. Kenny and Mr. Shatters piecemeal focus driven unravelling, this is hardly a great option to give it into their hands.

Iwasfrozen

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

How about we scrap the 1937 Constitution altogether and draw up a new one more appropriate to the 21st century? Save the hassle endless amendments to the current one.

Because I don't trust Enda to write it.

Xantia

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

How about we scrap the 1937 Constitution altogether and draw up a new one more appropriate to the 21st century? Save the hassle endless amendments to the current one.

It is a valuable document to have,
my other issue with it is that there is no way to show that your constitutional rights have been infringed (other than if you have a lot of time and money)

oscarBravo

Xantia wrote: »

As things stand if you register your name for voting you automatically then have to pay home tax.

...what?

Loafing Oaf

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because I don't trust Enda to write it.

That's (potentially) why we have a constitutional convention...

RangeR

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

That's (potentially) why we have a constitutional convention...

It has been suggested to the Steering Group a few months ago that the Constitutional Convention be renewed next year, with the same secretariat [as they have the knowledge of running this one] and a new set of "66". The purpose, to widen their scope.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But wouldn't it be possible to make the Dail sovereign rather then the people? Not saying I'd agree with it but it would be a possible solution.

Not without a referendum.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

Not without a referendum.

Or unless the current constitution was scrapped and another one drawn up.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Or unless the current constitution was scrapped and another one drawn up.

Which would also need a referendum. Really I dont see why we would need to do this anyway, our current constitution is quite good, that its been drawn upon by other countries as a basis for their own constitutions on gaining independance shows this.

A constitution should reflect the society that it is for, when ours was drawn up it was quite appropriate for the country at the time. As our country has changed over time, the constitution has too. I don't see anything wrong with this or why it should not continue.

Michael Nugent

Atheist Ireland has made two submissions to the Convention under this item on their agenda. Our recommendations in these submission are:

A Secular Constitution For a Pluralist People

(a) Remove specific references to God, such as all authority coming from the Holy Trinity and our obligations to our divine Lord Jesus Christ (Preamble); powers of government deriving under God from the people (6); blasphemy being an offence (40); the homage of public worship being due to Almighty God and the state holding his name in reverence (44); and the glory of God (Closing Line).

(b) Replace all religious oaths for public officeholders with a single neutral declaration that does not refer to either the religious or nonreligious philosophical beliefs of the person. As well as President (12), Council of State (31) and Judges (34), please note that there is also in practice a religious oath for Taoiseach, Tánaiste, Chair of the Dail and Seanad, and Attorney General, as these officeholders are obliged to be members of the Council of State and are thus obliged to swear the oath for that office.

(c) Amend the Articles on Fundamental Rights to explicitly give equal protection to religious and nonreligious philosophical believers, particularly where the Articles are unduly influenced by Roman Catholic teachings. This includes the Articles on equality (40), the family (41), education (42) and religion (44). Frame Articles generally so that they are based on human rights and duties and not on religious beliefs.

Economic, Social and Cultural Rights Without Discrimination

We ask the Convention to add the protection of ESC Rights onto its agenda, and to recommend to the Government to examine how best to protect ESC rights through the Constitution, without discrimination on any of the grounds listed in the ICESCR.

RangeR

Don't forget, we are doing a "Roadshow" this month and next. I posted details in another thread.

But you can read the press release on the website.

Loafing Oaf

An Coilean wrote: »

Which would also need a referendum. Really I dont see why we would need to do this anyway, our current constitution is quite good, that its been drawn upon by other countries as a basis for their own constitutions on gaining independance shows this..

How so? Which countries? Anyway, if that is so, why not keep the 'quite good' bits for the new constitution, rewording them for the 21st century, and chuck out all the archaic, sexist rubbish...

Cookie_Monster

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

How so? Which countries? Anyway, if that is so, why not keep the 'quite good' bits for the new constitution, rewording them for the 21st century, and chuck out all the archaic, sexist rubbish...

the Indian one if i'm not mistaken drew some points from ours.

Cody Pomeray

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But wouldn't it be possible to make the Dail sovereign rather then the people? Not saying I'd agree with it but it would be a possible solution.

It would be possible to amend the constitution so as to allow, for example, a super-majority of the Oireachtas to make amendments without removing the sovereignty of the people.

The sovereignty of the People simply refers to the font of ultimate power (insofar as it is not supernatural!)

The sovereignty of the people is therefore a very basic declaration... "We the People... give to ourselves this
Constitution" is an important principle, but would not prevent an amendment empowering the Oireachtas to amend the Constitution, just as the sovereignty of "we the People" in the US constitution does not prevent the same.

Meanwhile...

Sparks wrote: »

As to suggestions:
- Make the party whip system unconstitutional
- Create a means for allowing the electorate to force a binding referendum on a current policy issue

This would give real meaning to the sovereignty of the People. But why would the Government ever agree to putting this amendment to a referendum? Joseph Heller would certainly have approved of such a farce.

RangeR

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Atheist Ireland has made two submissions to the Convention under this item on their agenda. Our recommendations in these submission are:

A Secular Constitution For a Pluralist People

(a) Remove specific references to God, such as all authority coming from the Holy Trinity and our obligations to our divine Lord Jesus Christ (Preamble); powers of government deriving under God from the people (6); blasphemy being an offence (40); the homage of public worship being due to Almighty God and the state holding his name in reverence (44); and the glory of God (Closing Line).

(b) Replace all religious oaths for public officeholders with a single neutral declaration that does not refer to either the religious or nonreligious philosophical beliefs of the person. As well as President (12), Council of State (31) and Judges (34), please note that there is also in practice a religious oath for Taoiseach, Tánaiste, Chair of the Dail and Seanad, and Attorney General, as these officeholders are obliged to be members of the Council of State and are thus obliged to swear the oath for that office.

(c) Amend the Articles on Fundamental Rights to explicitly give equal protection to religious and nonreligious philosophical believers, particularly where the Articles are unduly influenced by Roman Catholic teachings. This includes the Articles on equality (40), the family (41), education (42) and religion (44). Frame Articles generally so that they are based on human rights and duties and not on religious beliefs.

Economic, Social and Cultural Rights Without Discrimination

We ask the Convention to add the protection of ESC Rights onto its agenda, and to recommend to the Government to examine how best to protect ESC rights through the Constitution, without discrimination on any of the grounds listed in the ICESCR.

Economic, Social and Cultural Rights was chosen to be the second of two "Any other Amendments". Please see here for discussion and to air your views.