Past or Present Members of Defence Forces

B_Sharp

As part of my college course, I'm researching an article about what impact a compulsory 6-12 month period of service with the defence forces or the civil service would have on Ireland's youth.

Does anyone know how I could get in contact with some past or present members of the defence forces to get their views on the idea and their own experiences in the forces.

Stovepipe

Hi there
Speaking as an ex-er, the only people who should be in a peacetime military are those who want to be there. Even in a wartime or national emergency situation, unless you're talking about a long-term crisis, a volunteer, professional army is best. Countries in Europe that had conscription also had compulsory non-military service in lieu, such as basic hospital service as a porter instead of being a soldier or duty in the emergency services such as retained firefighter/forest or nature park ranger/public duty such as a street cleaner/civil defence/Red Cross or even service in Army bands. In some countries, access to third-level education was paid for if you did some or all of the above types of service, in lieu of actual gun-carrying and exemption from overseas combat service (unless you volunteered for an aid agency for a defined period).In some Western countries, you could elect to join a reserve unit, wielding a weapon for 2-3 years in lieu of 1 year full-time service. In ex-warsaw pact countries, conscription is being slowly done away with and even the Russian Army and other State Arms will eventually move to an all-volunteer service. In a lot of countries, compulsory army service was regarded with loathing and there were many official and unofficial ways to avoid it. One Belgian guy that I knew, who was a volunteer reservist, said that the regular soldiers regarded such people with contempt and that the "long hairs" were usually given demeaning or very boring duties such as kitchen porter or garbage cleaner for the duration. Other kinds of service, such as firefighter or mountain rescue, were well regarded. The main point of compulsory short-service is that it is usually hated by the people who have to do it, regarded with contempt by those who have to enforce it and generally seen as a no-value, make-work exercise by all concerned.

regards
Stovepipe

bluecode

Irish military online, will have plenty of ex'ers. Probably many of the same as here.

I hope you'll also look at the effect it would have on DF itself. Somehow I doubt it would be positive unless it was part of a major restructure which ensured the concripts were kept on in some form of reserve capacity for several years later, something like Switzerland. Simply churning through a bunch of disaffected 19 year olds through the army for a short period. Will do no good for anyone least of all them.

There would have to be a major change in Irish attitudes to the military and civic duty. Can't see it myself.

2WiReD

I did my four years in the FCA [11th Infantry Battalion Southern Command] from 17-21 and it was some of the best days of my life. Though a little older now [32] I still firmly believe that 6-12 months military service would be of great benefit for 90% of the "youth" of today, preferably between secondary school and college. It would, however, require a massive overhaul of the current defense forces and require a rather large investment, one which we could only afford if we back-peddled significantly on our current plan of handing over all available natural resources and mortgaging our grandchildren to pay of banker and investor gambling debts....so, alas, not to happen for now.

SplitCartridge

Sounds like a good idea for a project.

Just remember one thing though, its all well and good to have a good impact on the youth of a country to do some civil or military service, but its not so good for the military involved. Conscript soldiers are crap. Volunteer soldiers want to be there. Proof of this is the motivated professional soldiers that took the Falklands from a textbook stronger adversary. The British forces were all volunteers. The Argie's were conscript privates LEAD by volunteers.

As well as that, in Ireland's case, the Defence Forces has a great history of professionalism oversea's. Professional soldiers care about their career, their reputation, their military's reputation, and their country's reputation. Conscripts.... well.. conscripts are a cross section of society. You get just as much bad eggs as you get good ones. At least volunteer soldiers were picked from large amounts of applicants by the Army.

Conscription > + Good for society - Bad for military

bluecode

Another thing to remember that in reality conscription in any country was never intended as a means applying some structure to the lives of young men, even if sometimes that was the accidental by product. In most of the continent it was to ensure that in the event of war there was available a large number of trained men who could be mobilised quickly. Generally they also remained in the reserve and would be re-trained annually. This is what happens now in Israel and Switzerland.

Britain had very little tradition of conscription and they struggled to get their manpower up to strength at the start of WW1. As we fall under their military tradition conscription is not something we are comfortable with. Not only that the British never dared to introduce consciption to Ireland in WW1. Pity the Irish government that tries it.

Even in countries which have a strong history of universal military service it's either gone or being phased out. It was anomalous at the end anyway. I remember Seve Ballestro had to do his military service in Spain even though he was already a top class golfer. Also Michael Schumacher and his brother Ralf had to do military service in Germany. Although I believe there were 'special' units for celebs and sportsmen. Famously of course Elvis did his time too.

There no point to it for the military anymore. Soldiers are no longer the mindless cannon fodder of old. It's a complex job and requires a lot of training and practice. You really don't want people in the job who wish they were elsewhere.

There could be a case for a semi military service for young people. Voluntary. Maybe a combination of adventure and community service. Paid of course and maybe it might help people get college credits. As they do in America for veterans. There's a lot to be said for giving young people something worthwhile and interesting to do. It might even help improve society in general.

Milk & Honey

B_Sharp wrote: »

As part of my college course, I'm researching an article about what impact a compulsory 6-12 month period of service with the defence forces or the civil service would have on Ireland's youth.

Does anyone know how I could get in contact with some past or present members of the defence forces to get their views on the idea and their own experiences in the forces.

It is fantasy. You might as well ask what a compulsory trip to mars would have on Irelands youth.
Do the maths. There are approx 60,000 school leavers in ireand every year. A six month training programme would mean 30,000 at a time would have to be trained.
That works out at approx 900 training platoons in being at any one time. A recruit platoon needs full time training NCOs and a platoon commander. That would be approx 4,000 full time trainers alone. Add in the addition demands on the medical corps (medicals on induction and discharge, injuries and illness in training attendance at firing ranges), transport, (driving to ranges and other training activities such as orienteering,) military police, catering etc and a force greater than the size of the present defence force would be needed just to train all of these youth.
That is before the question of providing accommodation is considered. The provision of 30,000 bed spaces would require a massive building program.
It will simply never happen.
Even if there was money to do it, the money would probably be better spent on dealing with the root causes of child offending and subsequent criminal behaviour.

John_D80

Milk & Honey wrote: »

It is fantasy. You might as well ask what a compulsory trip to mars would have on Irelands youth.
Do the maths. There are approx 60,000 school leavers in ireand every year. A six month training programme would mean 30,000 at a time would have to be trained.
That works out at approx 900 training platoons in being at any one time. A recruit platoon needs full time training NCOs and a platoon commander. That would be approx 4,000 full time trainers alone. Add in the addition demands on the medical corps (medicals on induction and discharge, injuries and illness in training attendance at firing ranges), transport, (driving to ranges and other training activities such as orienteering,) military police, catering etc and a force greater than the size of the present defence force would be needed just to train all of these youth.
That is before the question of providing accommodation is considered. The provision of 30,000 bed spaces would require a massive building program.
It will simply never happen.
Even if there was money to do it, the money would probably be better spent on dealing with the root causes of child offending and subsequent criminal behaviour.

In fairness, I think your over-analyzing the OP's question.

The stats and figures you've mentioned are all correct in my opinion, but bear in mind he's not trying to make a case for national service, merely examining the impact it would have on young people of Ireland.

I dont think anyone in their right mind would try and make the case that it is a viable option.

I for one would be interested in hearing what you come up with OP.

Milk & Honey

I said it was a fantasy.
Every so often some ill informed do-gooder gets on the radio and says that there should be compulsory military service for the youth of Ireland. Instil some discipline etc. etc.
It cant and won't happen. There will therefore be no effect on the youth of Ireland.
If the o/p is serious he should carry out research in countries which had compulsory military service and identify what effects compulsory military service had on those who underwent it and what changes in the youth have occurred since it stopped.

John_D80

He is not proposing it or even advocating it. He is merely looking into the hypothetical ramifications for the youth of Ireland IF there were national service, as part of a project. Nothing more.

No doubt he will use other countries as a basis for comparison, but he is just here looking for a few leads on trained Irish soldiers to speak to. Nobody, including the OP has tried to justify or make a case in favour of having national service.

Milk & Honey

John_D80 wrote: »

d IF there were national service,

.

There is no, never has been and not for the forseeable future national service in this country.
What qualifications have members or past members of the Irish defence forces to comment on it?
They have no experience of it and have had no contact with it and would be simply guessing. All have experience of the effects of military training on volunteers. The effects of military training on conscripts is something else entirely.

John_D80

He is looking for experienced soldiers for their views on what it may be like, and their own experiences of life and training in the army. I thought that much was plain from the original post but obviously some are finding that hard to understand.

Its all based on a hypothesis of an Ireland that does have national service. No harm in that. In fact, if it were to be released, it might be an interesting read if you take those blinkers off.

Milk & Honey

John_D80 wrote: »

He is looking for experienced soldiers for their views on what it may be like, and their own experiences of life and training in the army. I thought that much was plain from the original post but obviously some are finding that hard to understand.

Its all based on a hypothesis of an Ireland that does have national service. No harm in that. In fact, if it were to be released, it might be an interesting read if you take those blinkers off.

It is based on fantasy. How does a volunteer soldier know what it is like to be a conscript? I have no particular interest in what people imagine. I would be interested to hear from people who were conscripted and those who worked with conscripts.

John_D80

Milk & Honey wrote: »

It is based on fantasy. How does a volunteer soldier know what it is like to be a conscript? I have no particular interest in what people imagine. I would be interested to hear from people who were conscripted and those who worked with conscripts.

Did he say he had no plans to speak wit or interview people who had served in conscript armies? Sorry I must have missed that bit.

The chap is doing a project on how national service/conscription would affect the young people of Ireland, and you seriously cant see the benefit for him in speaking to serving and/or former members of the Defence forces of the country that is the subject of his research? Odd.

If he presented that project without speaking to someone from the organisation he was studying he'd get a straight up FAIL. Guaranteed.

Milk & Honey

John_D80 wrote: »

Did he say he had no plans to speak wit or interview people who had served in conscript armies? Sorry I must have missed that bit.

The chap is doing a project on how national service/conscription would affect the young people of Ireland, and you seriously cant see the benefit for him in speaking to serving and/or former members of the Defence forces of the country that is the subject of his research? Odd.

If he presented that project without speaking to someone from the organisation he was studying he'd get a straight up FAIL. Guaranteed.

He hasn't said who else he was going to interview.
He is asking how conscription can benefit young people of Ireland. He is not asking how conscription will affect the members of the Defence Forces or their organisation or even if conscription is feasible (which it manifestly isn't).
He is not studying the organisation of the Defence Forces. He is studying young people. The Irish defence forces have nothing to do with conscription and never had.
Members of the defence forces might comment on how military training has impacted on them, but how it would impact on non volunteers is a different story. Every recruit platoon and cadet class has had its drop-outs. Some have dropped out within days of starting, sometimes within hours. How would training have worked if the drop-outs had to stay in? No one knows.

John_D80

Milk & Honey wrote: »

He hasn't said who else he was going to interview.
He is asking how conscription can benefit young people of Ireland. He is not asking how conscription will affect the members of the Defence Forces or their organisation or even if conscription is feasible (which it manifestly isn't).
He is not studying the organisation of the Defence Forces. He is studying young people. The Irish defence forces have nothing to do with conscription and never had.
Members of the defence forces might comment on how military training has impacted on them, but how it would impact on non volunteers is a different story. Every recruit platoon and cadet class has had its drop-outs. Some have dropped out within days of starting, sometimes within hours. How would training have worked if the drop-outs had to stay in? No one knows.

What a load of waffle!! lol

Conscription if it were to happen in this country would be implemented by the DF so obviously he would want to speak to a member of the DF. This is a civilian doing a project/article on a military related topic.

Are you really telling me you cant see a reason for him to speak to a member of the DF for source information on life in the Irish military? Get real man.

Milk & Honey

John_D80 wrote: »

What a load of waffle!! lol

Conscription if it were to happen in this country would be implemented by the DF so obviously he would want to speak to a member of the DF. This is a civilian doing a project/article on a military related topic.

Are you really telling me you cant see a reason for him to speak to a member of the DF for source information on life in the Irish military? Get real man.

If. You keep using that word. It is not going to happen.
No one knows what form it would take. For how long? What level of training?
What is to be done about objectors, dodgers?
Members of the DF know nothing about any of that. All of that would be decided by politicians and civil servants.
The effects on people who are not now members of the DF can't even be guessed at by members of the DF.
The o/p should study countries where there has been military service and compare and contrast them. The Irish DF know nothing and can't know anything about it. If they think they do, they are a danger.

Stovepipe

@M&H, given that the DF has trained and exercised with countries that have/had conscription, such as Sweden, hasn't it occurred to you that they might have studied and learned about conscription? the DF had near-conscription in the Emergency and has always kept it in mind in the event of a national emergency. Apart from that, who else could tell you what actual service in the DF is like, except it's former inmates?

regards
Stovepipe

John_D80

Milk & Honey wrote: »

If. You keep using that word. It is not going to happen.
No one knows what form it would take. For how long? What level of training?
What is to be done about objectors, dodgers?
Members of the DF know nothing about any of that. All of that would be decided by politicians and civil servants.
The effects on people who are not now members of the DF can't even be guessed at by members of the DF.
The o/p should study countries where there has been military service and compare and contrast them. The Irish DF know nothing and can't know anything about it. If they think they do, they are a danger.

Nobody thinks for a second that it ever could or ever would happen so I dont know why you keep blowing on as if there was someone actually suggesting it as a possibility.

I agree he should study other countries where there is conscription but who is he going to consult on life in the Irish DF besides someone who has served in the Irish DF? Please just answer that one question.

Also I'm quite sure he would rather get information on the limitations of the defence forces directly from a reliable source rather than from you. The fact that the article is indirectly based on the Irish DF would absolutely necessitate speaking to serving or former members.

Milk & Honey

Stovepipe wrote: »

@M&H, given that the DF has trained and exercised with countries that have/had conscription, such as Sweden, hasn't it occurred to you that they might have studied and learned about conscription?

No reason the o/p can't do the same. learn from the people who have done it. In any event he is asking about the effects on the people who have undergone it. Any study by the military would be about the effects on the military and not on the youth.

Stovepipe wrote: »

the DF had near-conscription in the Emergency and has always kept it in mind in the event of a national emergency.

There was no near conscription during the emergency. The Chief of Staff was wooried because the number of recruits was below what was required. the standing army only reached 43,000 at its peak.

Stovepipe wrote: »

Apart from that, who else could tell you what actual service in the DF is like, except it's former inmates?

regards
Stovepipe

He is not asking what service in the DF is like.

Milk & Honey

John_D80 wrote: »

Nobody thinks for a second that it ever could or ever would happen so I dont know why you keep blowing on as if there was someone actually suggesting it as a possibility.

You are the one doing that.

John_D80 wrote: »

I agree he should study other countries where there is conscription but who is he going to consult on life in the Irish DF besides someone who has served in the Irish DF? Please just answer that one question.

He is not asking about life in the DF. He is asking about the effects of compulsory military service on youth. Do the maths. Start conscription tomorrow and what would happen.
Not enough trainers? Reduce the training period. Maybe 8 weeks.
Not enough accommodation? Let the conscripts live at home.
Not enough range facilities? Reduce the weapons training and number of outings to the range. drop the number of rounds fired
Not enough medics? Let anyone with a civvy doctors cert be exempt.

Any attempt at conscription in this country would be a farce. Would there be any benefit of it to anyone?

John_D80 wrote: »

Also I'm quite sure he would rather get information on the limitations of the defence forces directly from a reliable source rather than from you. The fact that the article is indirectly based on the Irish DF would absolutely necessitate speaking to serving or former members.

The article is not based on the Irish DF. It is based on a hypothetical DF. One that will never be.

John_D80

Milk & Honey wrote: »

You are the one doing that.

Not once have I suggested that conscription is even possible in the current DF so I dont know what you are basing this on.

Milk & Honey wrote: »

He is not asking about life in the DF.

Yes he is.

B_Sharp wrote: »

Does anyone know how I could get in contact with some past or present members of the defence forces to get their views on the idea and their own experiences in the forces.

Milk & Honey wrote: »

The article is not based on the Irish DF. It is based on a hypothetical DF.

I said it was indirectly based on the DF. Big difference. Please read comments properly before you quote them. And if it is as you say, a hypothetical DF, why is it so hard for you to imagine hypothetical national service?

Milk & Honey

You haven't read the o/p. He is wondering what impact conscription would have on the youth, not what is life like in the DF.


A DF with conscription would be radically different to the current one, in fact it would be so different as to be unrecognisable.

He would be better off to go back to his teacher and show that having conscription is a nonsensical proposal.

John_D80

Milk & Honey wrote: »

You haven't read the o/p. He is wondering what impact conscription would have on the youth, not what is life like in the DF.

Yes I have read it. As well as asking about the effect of conscription on the young people of Ireland he clearly says he wants to contact serving and former members of the DF to relate their experiences of the defence forces. Read it yourself if you dont believe me.

Milk & Honey wrote: »

A DF with conscription would be radically different to the current one, in fact it would be so different as to be unrecognisable.

He would be better off to go back to his teacher and show that having conscription is a nonsensical proposal.

What in the name of god are you blowing on about, seriously? A nonsensical proposal? No one, including the OP put it forward as a proposal. Asking about the effects of something for an article for a class is a thousand miles away from actually proposing it.

Not one person, has said conscription in Ireland is a viable option so I really dont know why you insist on giving reason after reason against it. Nobody is arguing the point with you.

wildfowler94

IMO it wouldn't work in the Irish Defence Forces, But teaching some of the little ****es some respect and life skills would benefit all.