County Boards in Dire Straits (not the band)

cormac halpin

Due to people unnecessarily hijacking and forcing the closure of my other thread expressing my concern for GAA County Boards in serious trouble, most notably Kildare GAA, I would proffer this one in replacement of such, in the hope that people try to behave themselves on this occasion. I will of course bow to the Moderators opinions of they feel this thread should also be locked, but I would ask for them to use their far greater and better judgement before doing so.


Tipperary to cut costs after €250k loss

By Jackie Cahill, Irish Independent

Tuesday January 29 2013

TIPPERARY GAA officials will tonight present plans aimed at tackling the county board's financial crisis.

Premier County chiefs reported a loss of almost €250,000 for the 2012 financial year, bringing their losses for the last four years to over €650,000.

Officers have closely examined all areas of income and expenditure and have come up with a series of suggestions to stem the bleed.

They are recommending that senior panels be confined to 30 players, with all other squads carrying a maximum of 26.

County team managers will be told to bring a maximum of 20 players to challenge matches and there will be cut-backs on gear allocation for players, who may be told not to swap jerseys with opponents after matches.

Tipperary's top brass also plan to cut the travel expenses rate to 20 cent per kilometre for players on all panels other than senior.

New fund-raising ideas will be explored, including fashion shows, white-collar boxing and a 'monster auction'.

Hurling team boss Eamon O'Shea will travel to New York with county board representatives in April to follow up on fund-raising possibilities in the Big Apple.

The county board has ruled out the possibility of hosting concerts at Semple Stadium, however, as they report that gigs there are no longer attractive to promoters.

A special meeting will take place tonight to discuss finances.

- Jackie Cahill



Well done to Tipperary in this instance for having the forethought to at least attempt to curb their own spending in this instance. A shame it had to go so far, but it is good to see County Boards taking hold of the spending and acting accordingly. Further evidence of the inability of the GAA to fund Professionalism?

Realt Dearg Sec

cormac halpin wrote: »

Hurling team boss Eamon O'Shea will travel to New York with county board representatives in April

You have to laugh at that line all the same...

But yeah professionalism is simply not feasible at all, I'm not sure what sort of future player grants even have (but if they were to be taken away I would expect a nationwide strike)

homerjay2005

the thing that gets me, is that counties spend 1000's in getting to croke park, bring in millions for the GAA, yet the GAA gives them noting or very little in advance.

the competing counties should get 15% at least back from the total gate, i dont think this is even close to happening.

antoobrien

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the thing that gets me, is that counties spend 1000's in getting to croke park, bring in millions for the GAA, yet the GAA gives them noting or very little in advance.

the competing counties should get 15% at least back from the total gate, i dont think this is even close to happening.

The only time the counties get the gate is during the league, so if you want your county to get more money, get more people going to the league!

Provincial matches gates got to the relevant council - so LFC matches go the the LC, MHC to MC etc.

All-Ireland series matches go to Central Council whcih makes up a good portion of their revenue. Central council give about 75% of total revenue (between 35m & 40m) back to the various counties & provincial councils.

If county boards are in trouble it's not HQ's fault. A good example of the mess that's going on around the country would be the Galway county board, which has several multi million projects on it's books. The football training ground in Loughgeorge cost 1.5m, the hurling training centre of excellence has cost 2.5m to date, Pearse stadium still has over 1m of debt associated with it. None of those are the fault of HQ.

Davin Stand

I wonder have they ever considered selling naming rights for Semple Stadium or for either of the 2 stands there, known to everyone as the Old Stand and the New Stand, even though they have official names. There are a lot of televised games in Thurles, so would the sale of naming rights for 5 years not be attractive to someboby out there.

Hibbeler

As a matter of interest how and where do most county boards get their money in the first place? Is it a mixture of Croke park funding, sponsors and whatever fund raisers they have? Don't imagine they get much in terms of gate receipts during the leagues.

blue note

antoobrien wrote: »

Provincial matches gates got to the relevant council - so LFC matches go the the LC, MHC to MC etc.

I know a chunk of the gates go to the host county as well - an eighth if I remember correctly. It's a particular bone of contention with the Waterford fans, because it basically means that Tipperary (and sometimes Cork) get thousands every time we play a game. For some of the Munster Finals they must have gotten over a hundred grand. I heard it suggested that we could nominate Nowlan Park as a "home" venue and then have home and away arrangements. I'm sure Kilkenny would be delighted to come to a mutually beneficial fairer arrangement than we currently have (where we basically get travel expenses out of the gates).

The ridiculous stadiums around the country are surely a major cause of so much of the debt - both the building costs and the maintenance costs. In our case I wish it was good sense that saw us not develop a white elephant like the Gaelic Grounds or even expand one of our stadia like Kilkenny did (maybe they're expecting Shania Twain to return), but it was in fact bickering between the east and west.

Spending is out of control though at intercounty level. if they could cap it, it would be brilliant - it would also level the playing field a little. That's just not possible though.

antoobrien

blue note wrote: »

I know a chunk of the gates go to the host county as well - an eighth if I remember correctly.

I suspect that's an individual decision for provincial councils.

blue note wrote: »

For some of the Munster Finals they must have gotten over a hundred grand. I heard it suggested that we could nominate Nowlan Park as a "home" venue and then have home and away arrangements.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when Waterford are the home team, don't they get to nominate the ground? If this is true, then the home cut (if there is one) should go to Waterford - with rent coming from that.

blue note wrote: »

The ridiculous stadiums around the country are surely a major cause of so much of the debt - both the building costs and the maintenance costs.

True, but it should be remembered that when the decisions were made to build/extend the decisions made sense. There's also the usual hangers on and NIMBYs that crop up with any kind of development. I remember Mayo putting over €16m into McHale Park, only for some tosser to object about floodlighting (I hope the guy moves into Donneycarney - the lights in Parnell Park are on several times a week) & height of the broadcasting tower (3 feet higher than PP - seriously who'd notice but a troublemaker), causing delays.

blue note wrote: »

Spending is out of control though at intercounty level. if they could cap it, it would be brilliant - it would also level the playing field a little. That's just not possible though.

It'd be very easy to cut out a lot of the top end stuff - ban "training camps" etc that take players away for weekends etc. If they can train for a weekend, they can do it at home.

Realt Dearg Sec

blue note wrote: »

or even expand one of our stadia like Kilkenny did (maybe they're expecting Shania Twain to return)

http://www.goldenplec.com/bruce-springsteen-rumoured-for-nowlan-park/

The problem Thurles has, is it's in Thurles.;)

blue note

antoobrien wrote: »

I suspect that's an individual decision for provincial councils.

antoobrien wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but when Waterford are the home team, don't they get to nominate the ground? If this is true, then the home cut (if there is one) should go to Waterford - with rent coming from that.

We don't have a ground suitable for playing championship matches so have no home and away arrangements. All our matches are played at neutral venues, so there is no home team. So, the host county gets a large cut.

antoobrien wrote: »

True, but it should be remembered that when the decisions were made to build/extend the decisions made sense. There's also the usual hangers on and NIMBYs that crop up with any kind of development. I remember Mayo putting over €16m into McHale Park, only for some tosser to object about floodlighting (I hope the guy moves into Donneycarney - the lights in Parnell Park are on several times a week) & height of the broadcasting tower (3 feet higher than PP - seriously who'd notice but a troublemaker), causing delays.

Loads of building projects were needless or at least way over the top in what was built. In reality, Munster could have one large ground the size of Thurles, maybe one other of about 35k and then county grounds could be at most 18k. Was there any need for the Gaelic Grounds? Has it been full yet? Cork was a massive stadium - what for? Why can't we play all the Munster finals in Munster HQ like they do in Leinster? At present, we have 4 very large stadiums in Munster and about 5 or 6 big games to go in them each year. I mentioned Nowlan Park as well, I see the development has gotten them the Boss instead of Shania Twain so there was some benefit to it, but I would like to hear a GAA benefit to it too!

antoobrien wrote: »

It'd be very easy to cut out a lot of the top end stuff - ban "training camps" etc that take players away for weekends etc. If they can train for a weekend, they can do it at home.

You're right, there's probably things they could do and they should do them!

68Murph68

The county boards who have issues with their finances are

Tipperary
Kildare
Waterford
Westmeath - losses of over €250,000 apparently

Are there any others out there with issues?

As far as I know Kerry County Board are in reasonable shape.

I've heard that talk there are also several clubs who are in difficulty.

klairondavis

68Murph68 wrote: »

The county boards who have issues with their finances are

Tipperary
Kildare
Waterford
Westmeath - losses of over €250,000 apparently

Are there any others out there with issues?

As far as I know Kerry County Board are in reasonable shape.

I've heard that talk there are also several clubs who are in difficulty.

Mayo?

The northern counties seem to be in good order as regards their finances. The benefits of capital sports grants and lack of investment in hurling (with the exception of Antrim) perhaps?

Max Power

OP what is your fascination with Kildare GAA's financial situation? What county are you from?

This thread is ridiculous.

68Murph68

klairondavis wrote: »

Mayo?

The northern counties seem to be in good order as regards their finances. The benefits of capital sports grants and lack of investment in hurling (with the exception of Antrim) perhaps?

Yeah not 100% on where Mayo are. I just listed the ones I was 100% are in trouble.

RE the northern counties - it would be interesting to see just how much funding the counties in the north get compared to in the south from the respective governments. The Ulster Council seems to be the best of the provincial councils from what I've seen - they had some very impressive looking stuff related to training/skills courses for those involved in running clubs, stuff like having five year development plans, having a proper club management structure in place.

randd1

blue note wrote: »

I mentioned Nowlan Park as well, I see the development has gotten them the Boss instead of Shania Twain so there was some benefit to it, but I would like to hear a GAA benefit to it too!

There is a GAA benefit too.

New modern dressing rooms, a gym and adequate and spacy parking for visiting team buses. And the removal of an old antiquated, and in parts crumbling, terrace in favour of seating.

They originally had plans to do up the old stand and banks into a new stand with more numbers, but it would have obstructed the residents road at that side so they couldn't get planning permission, so they did up the country end instead because they had saved up the money for it.

And they didn't go into debt doing it either.

blue note

randd1 wrote: »

There is a GAA benefit too.

New modern dressing rooms, a gym and adequate and spacy parking for visiting team buses. And the removal of an old antiquated, and in parts crumbling, terrace in favour of seating.

They originally had plans to do up the old stand and banks into a new stand with more numbers, but it would have obstructed the residents road at that side so they couldn't get planning permission, so they did up the country end instead because they had saved up the money for it.

And they didn't go into debt doing it either.

The only part I'm arguing about is spending money to increase capacity. There's no need for a stand there. Not even a use to be honest. They could have upgraded the terrace for cheaper and spent the money on something more worthwhile. It is to their credit though that they didn't take on debt for it.

Palytoxin

FionnMcCool87 wrote: »

OP what is your fascination with Kildare GAA's financial situation? What county are you from?

This thread is ridiculous.

All he said in this thread was "most notably Kildare GAA". Probably because it was the most notable.

Bizzum

FionnMcCool87 wrote: »

OP what is your fascination with Kildare GAA's financial situation? What county are you from?

This thread is ridiculous.

I fail to see the relevance of asking the OP to declare what county he is from. If he was from Kerry or Carlow or Galway surely his opinion is as valid?
If you think the thread is ridiculous, do what I do, Ignore it.

On the subject of kildares dire financial situation: Is the mere mention sacrocanct? I enjoyed the previous thread. There were some good fair and honest debate. Sticking one's head in the sand will rarely work.

klairondavis

Bizzum wrote: »

I fail to see the relevance of asking the OP to declare what county he is from. If he was from Kerry or Carlow or Galway surely his opinion is as valid?
If you think the thread is ridiculous, do what I do, Ignore it.

On the subject of kildares dire financial situation: Is the mere mention sacrocanct? I enjoyed the previous thread. There were some good fair and honest debate. Sticking one's head in the sand will rarely work.

There was a lot of nonsense and pure conjecture too to be fair. The facts were widely available yet they were conveniently ignored to suit particular agendas on occasion and the thread went off on a complete tangent.

Of course this is a topic worth discussing and it is an issue that will probably be with us for a long time due to the current wider economic situation. Cork's failure to secure a sponsorship deal at this time is an indicator of how tough county board's are going to find it to generate revenue in the years to come. Many county boards had it too good for too long with generous sponsorship deals and ample government investment in capital projects. That income simply isn't there anymore yet many county boards are still spending as much if not more on the preparation of county teams. Something has to give.

Bizzum

klairondavis wrote: »

There was a lot of nonsense and pure conjecture too to be fair. The facts were widely available yet they were conveniently ignored to suit particular agendas on occasion and the thread went off on a complete tangent .

I could say this of many threads on Boards. It's simply the nature of the beast.

klairondavis

Bizzum wrote: »

I could say this of many threads on Boards. It's simply the nature of the beast.

True, but once the thread went completely off topic and developed into a slanging match there was little point in persisting with it. I stopped contributing to it when completely unrelated matters were being discussed that had nothing to do with the reasons behind KCB's financial difficulties and I'm sure I wasn't alone.

Tom Joad

klairondavis wrote: »

True, but once the thread went completely off topic and developed into a slanging match there was little point in persisting with it. I stopped contributing to it when completely unrelated matters were being discussed that had nothing to do with the reasons behind KCB's financial difficulties and I'm sure I wasn't alone.

Couldn't agree with you more klairon - it's a topic worth discussing but last thread descended so far it was impossible to have a proper discussion.

DARK-KNIGHT

on a kildare front its great to see Bradys onboard. counties are gonna find it tougher getting lucrative contracts for sponsorship.

i know kildares finances have been a joke really im just glad to see they are making steps to right the wrongs.

i for one this thread is here its a growing problem with counties and alot of counties are gonna face serious problems re finances in years to come which is a shame really..

cormac halpin

Tipperary financial crisis revealed

NEWS: Tipperary officials have been told by independent auditors their finances are in a “precarious” state. The stark warning was issued on the same night county board secretary Tim Floyd revealed a substantial bill for under-declared VAT has been settled.

A VAT audit of the Tipperary GAA shop at Lár Na Páirce in Thurles concluded charges totalling €56,713, made up of €40,000 in VAT and the rest in penalties, were in order. Floyd confirmed these monies have now been paid.

Delegates also voted through a number of proposals from county board chiefs aimed at reducing expenditure and raising income. Audited figures presented to last Tuesday night’s special board meeting, convened to discuss the financial crisis, confirmed a deficit of €244,390 for the 2012 financial year.

In the last four years, losses of over €650,000 have been recorded in Tipperary but chairman Seán Nugent and his fellow officers are determined to arrest the slide. Auditor Ronan Spain said: “Finances are in a precarious position and need to be turned around after three years of losses.”

In 2013, Tipp top brass want to make a €400,000 saving, by slashing expenditure by €200,000 and by raising an extra €200,000.

Nugent added that, to date, accounting systems have not provided “adequate information” for board officers.

But he is confident the situation will now improve and revealed Tipp have received accounting assistance from GAA HQ.

Nugent conceded team administration costs will remain high, as he wants the intercounty football and hurling teams to be competitive. Spending on intercounty teams in 2012 exceeded €1m for a fourth successive year .

Car-pooling and bus travel for county players, where cost effective, should help to alleviate costs.

Senior hurling team training sessions could also take place at different club grounds, with the county board and the host club sharing the costs. Savings in relation to team gear and strict enforcement of budgets will be explained to players and management teams, with no jersey swapping permitted.

A Premier Gold plus package has also been announced, where supporters can attend the five fixtures in Division One, plus the Munster SHC semi-final against Limerick on June 9th. Those signing up to the package can purchase championship tickets after the Limerick game, while entry to all Tipperary adult club games also covered. This package has been priced at €200 and is also available for football.

Free match passes will now be subject to a €25 levy and with an estimated 700 passes in Tipperary, this could raise over €17,000. Each pass holder, from county board chairman down to referees and umpires, will pay the charge.

keane2097

Is 200 quid not an absurd price for 5 league games and a Championship match? Over and above the usual season ticket price you're getting club game entry (adult only) for €120 if I'm reading it right?

antoobrien

keane2097 wrote: »

Is 200 quid not an absurd price for 5 league games and a Championship match? Over and above the usual season ticket price you're getting club game entry (adult only) for €120 if I'm reading it right?

That's not that bad value for a club & county ticket. I presume it's just for hurling/football and not both. I was at over a dozen club games last year at various levels, so that ticket would make sense for me.

keane2097

antoobrien wrote: »

That's not that bad value for a club & county ticket. I presume it's just for hurling/football and not both. I was at over a dozen club games last year at various levels, so that ticket would make sense for me.

"This package has been priced at €200 and is also available for football" would suggest not.

They're hardly charging a tenner into county league games? The amount of people who would find time to see more than ten Championship games would be pretty low I'd guess.

premierstone

keane2097 wrote: »

"This package has been priced at €200 and is also available for football" would suggest not.

They're hardly charging a tenner into county league games? The amount of people who would find time to see more than ten Championship games would be pretty low I'd guess.

Alot of people would easily attend over and above that Keane, its for all Minor, U21, Junior, Intermediate and Senior games. My own club alone would have 8 adult teams - 5 Hurling and 3 Football - the club ticket in this package covers both codes - and all those championships are run on a round robin basis, with the exception of U-21.

Last year we had 38 championship matches and it was not particularly a succesfull year. This of course is not even including attending other games not involving your own club and the various leagues at Junior, Intermediate and Senior grades. Its really aimed at the die hards and is good value for them.

keane2097

lol, the dreadful attempt at describing the ticket would make me cautious about trusting the accuracy of any of the rest of the article!

antoobrien

keane2097 wrote: »

lol, the dreadful attempt at describing the ticket would make me cautious about trusting the accuracy of any of the rest of the article!

What's dreadful about it, it says all adult club matches. Not all senior or whatever, but all adult club matches. That's a serious package.

but hey id you don't believe it take a read of the Tipperary GAA page.

Don’t forget the Tipperary season ticket is still available. For just €200, the new 2013 Premier Gold Plus Package will give access to all adult club games within the county organized by the Tipperary County and Divisional CCC’s. In addition it incorporates the GAA Season Ticket which gives access to all Allianz League matches in the chosen code (including semi-finals and final) plus the opening Championship fixture for Tipperary SH or SF. After that Pay for Play applies for your county’s additional games in the championship in that code with a €5 discount off face value. For championship games the Season Ticket is in a reserved good quality seating section e.g. 304 or 305 in the Cusack Stand in Croke Park. If you have already purchased a GAA Season Ticket you can pay an additional €115 for the Tipperary GAA Club Match Pass. If you don’t want the inter-county ticket, you can still buy the club season ticket for just €120 which represents great value for regular match attendees.

keane2097

antoobrien wrote: »

What's dreadful about it, it says all adult club matches. Not all senior or whatever, but all adult club matches. That's a serious package.

but hey id you don't believe it take a read of the Tipperary GAA page.

Premierstone reckons minor and under-21 games are included. If we're now calling minor and u-21 games "adult games" then ok but I've literally never heard of them being described so in the past. The article also says there is a football equivalent available, but apparently the one ticket works for both.

I just wouldn't be trusting the rest of the info in the article with my life is all I'm saying, sounds pretty third-hand.

antoobrien

keane2097 wrote: »

Premierstone reckons minor and under-21 games are included. If we're now calling minor and u-21 games "adult games" then ok but I've literally never heard of them being described so in the past. The article also says there is a football equivalent available, but apparently the one ticket works for both.

In the GAA the definition of an adult game (or member for that matter) is minor (u-18), U-21, Senior etc, so premierstone is correct.

Whether the one ticket will work for both at club level I don't know, but at county level it is for hurling or football, not both.

keane2097

antoobrien wrote: »

In the GAA the definition of an adult game (or member for that matter) is minor (u-18), U-21, Senior etc, so premierstone is correct.

Whether the one ticket will work for both at club level I don't know, but at county level it is for hurling or football, not both.

Not to go any farther off topic, but the rules of the game (http://www.gaa.ie/content/documents/publications/official_guides/Official_Guide_2011_Part_1.pdf) make distinctions between juvenile, minor, senior and adult pretty much everywhere I can see (stopped searching after about ten instances) and as I said I've never before been aware of "adult" meaning or including "minor" in the normal GAA vernacular and I'm around a while.

celt262

keane2097 wrote: »

Not to go any farther off topic, but the rules of the game (http://www.gaa.ie/content/documents/publications/official_guides/Official_Guide_2011_Part_1.pdf) make distinctions between juvenile, minor, senior and adult pretty much everywhere I can see (stopped searching after about ten instances) and as I said I've never before been aware of "adult" meaning or including "minor" in the normal GAA vernacular and I'm around a while.

Im not sure which is right or wrong but in cavan the Minor leagues and championships are looked after by the county board, U16 down is looked after by the youth board.

premierstone

There are two county boards, the Adult County Board and the Juvenile County Board. Minor and Under 21 have always fallen within the remit of the Adult County Board.

As a Committee member of my local club I have been lucky enough to have one of these Adult Match Passes for the past three years and it is valid for all games from minor to Senior within the county.

keane2097

Clearly I'm less well versed in the parlance than your average GAA punter, I'm sure I'll be the only one unclear on the whole thing.

cormac halpin

keane2097 wrote: »

Clearly I'm less well versed in the parlance than your average GAA punter, I'm sure I'll be the only one unclear on the whole thing.

Its plain as day, minors are adults. What can't you understand?

keane2097

cormac halpin wrote: »

Its plain as day, minors are adults. What can't you understand?

randd1

cormac halpin wrote: »

In 2013, Tipp top brass want to make a €400,000 saving, by slashing expenditure by €200,000 and by raising an extra €200,000.

I've seen that they lost 650,000 over the last four years, which co-incidentally is the same period of time which they've done so well at senior in the hurling, and at underage in both codes.

Not wanting to seem stupid, but could it be that Tipp might have trouble reaching the standards they've set for themselves because they won't have the same level of finance as before?

I know they say they want to cut down by €200,000 which is do-able, but its surely going to be a lot harder to make up a further €200,000.

Realt Dearg Sec

keane2097 wrote: »

make distinctions between juvenile, minor, senior and adult pretty much everywhere I can see

What? They make a distinction between senior and adult? What does the difference consist of?

cormac halpin

Four of the biggest GAA counties ran up six-figure deficits in 2012, causing increasing worry for the Association at central level.

Despite a slight improvement in the overall picture for 2012, the GAA are still grappling with financial problems in up to five counties who they fear are not making sufficient inroads into historical debt and may need support further down the line.

Tipperary and Waterford are the most pressing concern for the GAA as their deficits continue to rise from year to year.

Sligo and Armagh are also thought to be concerning the GAA, whose Management Committee were given an overall picture at their most recent meeting.

Tipperary announced measures last week to bring their finances under control as four years of deficits reached €650,000.

Kerry and Meath fell deeply into the red in 2012 as they suffered from dramatic falls in local gate receipts, but there is less concern about them because the figures have not been consistently poor.

The GAA will seek to introduce measures next year that will prevent counties from running up the type of consecutive deficits that got Kildare into such trouble last year – when they required two 'bailouts' – and are pushing Tipperary and Waterford into deeper trouble.

A number of counties have got themselves out of trouble over the last 12 months, however, with Kildare, Westmeath and Wexford enjoying the most significant transformations.

Croke Park officials say that the €19m yearly spend on preparations for inter-county teams remains the greatest drain on a county's finances and the most likely source of financial peril.

- Colm Keys, Irish Independent