Advice on buying a doer-upper

AnnieRoonie

Hi there,

My first post so hoping I've put in the right place. Myself and my husband have just got mortgage approval and are looking to buy in one of the southern suburbs of the city. We viewed a house yesterday that we had liked the look of online but had initially disregarded due to the fact that it only has electric heating. However, we decided to take a look as the girl in the EA office said we could probably install gas heating for approx €3.5k. I know some people might be groaning and rolling their eyes at this but all I'll say is that it piqued my interest enough to go for a look.


When we walked in, the EA said he thinks whoever buys the house would need to spend approx €30k to modernise it. It would need a central heating system installed, possible rewiring, a new bathroom, new kitchen and a load bearing wall knocked to make a bigger kitchen diner. It's a great house in an area we love, has 4 bedrooms, two lovely big reception rooms and a great garden.

Just looking for some advice from anyone who has done this kind of work as a first time buyer. Our only experience of this kind of renovation comes from watching tv shows. We could live in the house and do it up gradually once the heating was installed but are we better off to do it all now if we can afford it? The house is very affordable for us and I estimate we could have approx €10k savings left over once we pay solictor's fees etc. Plus, my Dad could lend us some cash also and we've been informed by the bank that we would potentially get 75% of the cost of renovation, however, this would be a term loan.

Any genuine advice appreciated. Thanks!

Milk & Honey

Having been through a lot of renovation I can say that there is a big learning curve involved. the TV shows don't show the householder who has taken a day off work to wait for the builder only to have a no show, no answer from the mobile and a house in disarray.
The only sensible way to do a renovation is to do all the work together. When heating is being done, floorboards will be coming up and there will be drilling into walls. Plumbing and wiring should be done at the same time as they will also involve working under floors and drilling into walls. It is much easier to do all of this when the house is empty. Insulation and windows can be done after this. New bathroom appliances and kitchen units can then be added. After that the re-plastering and decorating can be done.
Trying to work on a house while living in it is a nightmare. It will never be finished and will involve a lot of double handling. Each job will be more expensive as furniture will have to be moved out of the way and services such as water and electricity have to be maintained.
If you are going to do it, plan the full job at the start and get an accurate estimate of the cost. I wouldn't rely on the EA figures, you need to have a plan drawn up and costed by a QS. Add 20% to the budget before you start. There are always extras.

AnnieRoonie

Thanks M&H, very sound advice. I think this is just too much work for us as first time buyers. Until I saw this house, the only kind of renovating I had seen us doing was taking up carpets and maybe a new kitchen down the line if it was needed. My husband is very keen on buying a cheaper house and adding value which I see the merit in, but I don't think either of us can really predict the stress involved. Thanks again for the help.

The_Conductor

Buying a cheaper house and adding value?
There is no guarantee that if you spend 30k doing up a property that it is worth 30k more than you paid for it. Indeed- the current proposal is to knock a load bearing wall- the propensity for structural issues could be enormous.

With respect of buying a property that needs work done to it- personally I think you'd be crazy to imagine you can move in and do the work over time. It sounds like pretty major work- structural, rewiring, central heating, a kitchen- god only knows what else. 20-30k could well be wishful thinking. You need someone who has a good idea about these things to take a look at the property and give you an idea of realistically what getting it done up would entail, both in cash and time terms.

Don't move into a building site- life is too short, if you do decide to buy- get it done up before you move in, or make the purchase of the property contingent on a to-do list for the current owner (you'll have to sign a contract and make a significant deposit if you're doing this- but it might be worth it in the longer run).

JuliusCaesar

smccarrick wrote: »

Indeed- the current proposal is to knock a load bearing wall- the propensity for structural issues could be enormous.

Good builder - RSJ or whatever it's called - not a problem. But I second everyone on getting as much work done in one go as possible. It's cheaper in the long run AND you get most of the structural work done - new wiring is hidden, extra sockets are cheap at this stage. Do it afterwards and you'll find that it'll cost twice as much to have wiring recessed into the plaster instead of having it visible. Do the superficial stuff slowly - decorating.

But if you have a recommendation for a good builder, they are worth their weight in gold and will point out things you never thought of. Get them to look at the place, and give their estimate of what needs to be done and how much it'll cost.

the_syco

Off the top of my head;
New gas boiler.
New radiators.
New pipes for the entire house.
Labour.
Possible new windows, and labour involved.
Is there any insulation, or if there is, it may still need to be replaced. And add labour to that as well.

I say add labour, as doing the maths for items, you may forget to add it. Most "do uppers" that you'll see on the TV use a lot of labour. The people who find it cheap to do it themselves are often in the trade themselves.

Idbatterim

you can save yourself a lot by doing as much of the work as possible yourself. For the work you can do yourself, shop around and get several quotes. A lot of stuff can be bought online from the uk etc, for usually a fair bit less than you would pay here...

ABajaninCork

I'd also spend a bit of time and money researching a good gas fitter (remember that any gas fitter you employ must be registered), decent plumber and a decent sparks to re-wire the house. Don't cut corners with these jobs - it'll cost more in the long run.

the_syco

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I'd also spend a bit of time and money researching a good gas fitter (remember that any gas fitter you employ must be registered), decent plumber and a decent sparks to re-wire the house. Don't cut corners with these jobs - it'll cost more in the long run.

This. Go by word of mouth from people you trust. Also, the radius of what people did and now do is a lot larger, so someone that is far away may still do the work if there's enough to make it worth his while.

AnnieRoonie

Thanks to everyone for all the great advice. Our next step is to get advice from our broker on what he expects from a mortgage point of view. If he thinks it's a goer I'm going to ask an engineer I used to work for a few years ago to take a look at the house and give us his opinion and an approximate idea of cost.

It's a house we could happily spend the next twenty plus years in IF we can make it work for us. If not, then it's onwards and upwards

the_syco

The cost the engineer gives you; you must stick to it, or the place may become a black hole where all your money disappears into.

Milk & Honey

The engineer can only specify the work to be done. A quantity surveyor is needed for costing. After that it is a matter of getting quotes.
Builders have numerous tricks to get the price up. Extras will always creep in. problems will be "discovered" after the job starts. The price is going to be different if it is all being done at one time on an empty house or if it is going to be in stages on an occupied house.
The o/ps biggest problem is lack of experience.

the_syco

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Builders have numerous tricks to get the price up.

One bit of advice is to pay the builder in stages. It ensures that you don't loose all the money if the builder goes bust, and can help speed up the process if the builder is slacking off but demanding payment.

miss no stars

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Good builder - RSJ or whatever it's called - not a problem.

No, no and no. There is no way you can say that without knowing the structure. There is no guarantee that it will be simple. Quite possibly it will be, but then again it might not be. This is where you need a decent engineer to have a look.

the_syco wrote: »

One bit of advice is to pay the builder in stages. It ensures that you don't loose all the money if the builder goes bust, and can help speed up the process if the builder is slacking off but demanding payment.

This.

Agree a schedule of payments that are related to completion of tasks. Eg,

€xxxx.00 to be paid upon completion of kitchen wall being demolished and replacement structure in service.
€xxxx.00 to be paid upon completion of rewiring
€xxxx.00 after central heating installation and testing to ensure it's functional

and so on. This is where a hiring a good quantity surveyor will come into its own as their experience of projects will help prevent the contractor ripping you off.

fricatus

Some banks will agree to fund works if they add value. Of course the cost of the works mightn't be fully realised in the increase in value, but it might still be within your grasp.

We're doing up our new house at present and this is the way we've done it. The bank is funding 90% of the end value.

I would suggest finding a reputable builder, bringing them to the house, getting them to quote for the work you want done. Then, bring that to the bank and see what they say. If they reckon that the completed project will be worth x, and are happy to loan you 90% of x, and you've saved 10% of x, you should be able to work away then.

BTW, +1 on getting all the work done in one go if you possibly can. And start with the hidden stuff (leccy, plumbing, etc.). There's no point in getting fancy hardwood floors only to have them pulled up in five years' time because the plumbing which you ignored has sprung a leak.

Another tip: from our experience, the things that add value in a house are "stuff that appeals to women" like a nice patio, nice floors, a nice bathroom, etc. - much more than the latest boiler, new wiring, etc. And don't complain to me if that sounds sexist, because that's what the lady in the bank said to my wife!

cltt97

Well, I did exactly what you were thinking of doing, mainly because I hadn't a cent left after buying the house. Wasn't quite a much work as you're describing, as I had central heating, but a backboiler in the old fireplace and needed to replace that with a new boiler in a different place and had to have a few radiators and gas pipes moved. Involves a lot of taking up floorboards, which if you don't have carpets isn't too bad, but you need to move everything out of the way all the time. I also had the house rewired, that was a nightmare, walls are concrete - the black dust that settled itself all over the house still haunts me! It's dirty, noisy and was by far the worst job. So if anything, this is something that should be done in an empty house. I also had my stairs sanded and stained, so no going up to the toilet for half a day...
The rewiring took about a week, involved a lot of chasing walls, etc. I had a super electrician, very meticulous and reliable. The plumbing was done a bit here and there, but the major work, i.e. installation of the new boiler took a full day if I remember - mainly because it took the poor apprentice half the day to drill the outlet hole into the concrete wall! Of course if everything is to be installed, it'll probably take a good week, too.

But I would not be put off by a doer-upper. Maybe the load bearing wall might be a bit of a scary thing, but get a structural engineer and get advice. But the advantage is, you can have your radiators where you want them and how many you want - or you go for underfloor heating. And you can have as many sockets were you need them. I had 8 sockets put where my PC is and 8 sockets where my TV hangs - you would not believe how many sockets one needs between PCs, modems, printers, routers and what not else, and the TV plus digital receiver, sat receiver, DVD player and stereo, well.... the list goes on. I also have sockets now in somewhat weird places, but I love it everytime I plug in the hoover. I have a switch that lets me turn on/off the hall light from either end of the hall... I also had to move some radiators so I could fit wardrobes where I wanted them, most annoying...

If I were to buy a house again I would definitely go looking for one where I need to put in heating and wiring, so I could have it exactly as I want it.