Something ATC said

BrakePad

Hi all,

When I was flying the other day I was rejoining Weston. I was requesting the transfer from Dublin FIS. They approved and i acknowledged the approval and then he said something like "Q5" and when I didnt respond he prompted me to do so.

I'm not sure if it was Q5 that he said but it sounded like that...

Anybody any ideas what it meant?

Stovepipe

he said "Q S Y", which is the Q-code for you to make a frequency change, without having to verbalise it.

regards
Stovepipe

phonypony

And please try not to fall into the habit of using it, there's enough non-standard phraseology on the air as it is!

bluecode

Most likely QSY as Stovie says. ATC tend to assume you know what you're about. If your Instructor never told you it's a bit surprising.

One rule, always query if you're not sure. Never ever feel embarrassed about an ATC commuciation. Request a clarification. Evn the pros will make sure, me included.

Better embarrassment than eff up.

DieselPowered

phonypony wrote: »

And please try not to fall into the habit of using it, there's enough non-standard phraseology on the air as it is!

What do you mean "not to fall into the habit of using it" ?

it IS standard phraseology in the air. Q codes are frequently used.

phonypony

DieselPowered wrote: »

What do you mean "not to fall into the habit of using it" ?

Because non-standard phraseology causes confusion, as evidenced by the OP's question.

DieselPowered wrote: »

it IS standard phraseology in the air. Q codes are frequently used.

Not anymore it's not, only some Q codes are still standard in aviation.

DieselPowered

phonypony wrote: »

Not anymore it's not, only some Q codes are still standard in aviation.

Details? Links to where they are not used anymore?

While many have slipped from common use, 'QSY' is still commonly used
so its up to pilots to know what it means.

Dublin ATC, London Information and ATC in France frequently use this.

phonypony

DieselPowered wrote: »

Details? Links to where they are not used anymore?

While many have slipped from common use, 'QSY' is still commonly used
so its up to pilots to know what it means.

Dublin ATC, London Information and ATC in France frequently use this.

Well London Info should certainly not be using it as it is not contained within the CAA's official radiotelephony publication, CAP413. As far as Ireland and France are concerned, well I just assumed with JAA/EASA radiotelephony was one area where member states acted in harmony. If you can point to an ICAO/IAA document to the contrary I'll stand corrected. I can only quote Phil Croucher ('JAR Professional Pilot Studies') in saying that they're 'not officially supposed to be used'.

Xpro

I use QSY sometimes aswell, but yea i was told the Q codes arent used anymore nor practiced.

LeftBase

From what I can make out there is a new guy in Dublin ATS that uses it. When I was flying out of Weston regularly I never heard QSY used. However I heard it a few weeks ago and then heard a student inquire as to it's meaning on the ground directly afterwards. The instructor just said "oh that's a new guy in Dublin ATS that seems to like using it"

Growler!!!

I've heard the odd Q code from atc. Anybody remember QDMs and QDRs from the ATPL exams? I'm sure some of the atc guys were ex ships radio officers who would have used the Q codes when Morse code was still a licence requirement. The use of Q codes in Morse was a necessity for brevity.

Below is a link for some icao approved Q codes:

http://www.pilotfriend.com/training/flight_training/communication/q_code.htm

tippilot

You only used QDM/QÐR in the ATPL theory? Still quite commonly used. Have a listen to a practice Pan on 121.5 for example.

smurfjed

I'm sure some of the atc guys were ex ships radio officers who would have used the Q codes when Morse code was still a licence requirement

Hey as I pilot I remember having to do a morse test, we were expected to send/receive a certain amount, but this only dealt with letters not actual messages (AFAIR). Never used the skill from that day I guess that this was part of the Irish CPL and not JAA.

smurfjed

the beerhunter

LeftBase wrote: »

From what I can make out there is a new guy in Dublin ATS that uses it.

hasn't been anyone new added to dublin radar in over three years. best guess is someone was guesting on a different team from usual and picked up a quaint new habit. as an anachronism "qsy" is up there with saying "over" at the end of each transmission or signing off with "toodlepip"...

Tenger

the beerhunter wrote: »

..... as an anachronism "qsy" is up there with saying "over" at the end of each transmission or signing off with "toodlepip"...

Gosh old boy, I have yet to be paged about toodlepip being bang out of order.

Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.

LeftBase

the beerhunter wrote: »

hasn't been anyone new added to dublin radar in over three years. best guess is someone was guesting on a different team from usual and picked up a quaint new habit. as an anachronism "qsy" is up there with saying "over" at the end of each transmission or signing off with "toodlepip"...

I recently heard a BA pilot respond to his approach clearance and a freq change with only "Jolly good! Speedbird 123"

Growler!!!

tippilot wrote: »

You only used QDM/QÐR in the ATPL theory? Still quite commonly used. Have a listen to a practice Pan on 121.5 for example.

Thats right - never heard them used in the last few years of commercial ops. ATC just tell us to report established inbound on VOR/NDB appr rwy xx

Unfortunatly once i hear the the "Practice" part i tend to tune out.

smurfjed wrote: »

Hey as I pilot I remember having to do a morse test, we were expected to send/receive a certain amount, but this only dealt with letters not actual messages (AFAIR). Never used the skill from that day I guess that this was part of the Irish CPL and not JAA.

smurfjed

I had to learn 15 - 18 words a minute tx/rx for use on MF and HF Marine radios. Once the exams were passed all the ships I went on had the new GMDSS sets when rendered morse obsolete:mad:

Flier

Morse was dropped when JAA exams came in in 1999. Similarly, the only Q codes I have ever used related to pressure - ie QNH, and QFE if you find yourself talking to UK military. A flight instructor once had me do a 'practice QDM'. Never used any other Q codes. I would be a bit shocked if ATC used them and I'm afraid I would have to file an air safety report!

Pilotdude5

Never heard a QSY. QDM and QDR were used by instructors constantly but never on the radio.

I miss the laid-back ATC in the states, who deal with considerably more traffic in a more efficient manner IMO.

DieselPowered

Pilotdude5 wrote: »

Never heard a QSY.

Ahh..the new generation of Pilots....;)

Pilotdude5

DieselPowered wrote: »

Ahh..the new generation of Pilots....;)

Sure its all iPads and autopilots nowadays don't you know!:D

Growler!!!

HAH.... Autopilots? In my day you were lucky to have..... never mind:D

Xpro

Pilotdude5 wrote: »

Never heard a QSY. QDM and QDR were used by instructors constantly but never on the radio.

I miss the laid-back ATC in the states, who deal with considerably more traffic in a more efficient manner IMO.

Depends on where you fly aswell. If you constantly transit trough different zones, you will hear QSY quite alot.

In weston re entry, QSY is used pretty much all the time. You will find instructors use it more then anyone else, as they are constantly switching between Dublin FIS and weston.

bluecode

I've heard certain controllers in Shannon, use QSY from time to time. Guilty of using it myself on occasion. Ultimately it's easier to say than 'Changing frequency to XXX.XX'.

QDR and QDM was taught in my day but never actually used either in Ireland. Although it was in regular use in Britain.

One word which is official terminology but still makes me feel 'jolly good show' and all that is 'Wilco', meaning will comply. But of course one must never use Roger and Wilco together. Bad show old boy!

One thing that does bother me is the often continued use of the term 'Affirmative' it was long ago superseded by 'Affirm'.Then again I have on occasion used a simple double click to acknowledge a call. Usually though for a non standard, trivial message.

The mention of morse is interesting, surprised it's completely gone. But does anyone ID VORs/NDBs anymore? When I was learning morse we all had to go the merchant marine office down in Eden Quay for the test. Where we were all given a simple enough test on an archaic looking key thing. The offices themselves were archaic too. I remember seeing a row of books on the shelf in the waiting room labelled: 'Boiler explosions' on ships. One for each year of the late nineteenth century. Being a stoker must have been bloody dangerous.

I passed anyway when I got back to where my motorcycle was parked. Gone, stolen. Day ruined.

I should add this was not 1936 but the mid nineties.

Those were the days. Over and out.:P

Growler!!!

Luckily now a days the ident is printed in dots and dashes on the jeppys or navtech charts:D

But i still litsten to the ident.


And you just used "over and out" :P

Lustrum

I'm almost certain you can fail your IR if you don't ident the navaids, or maybe we were just told that so that we would always ident them! I cant read Morse at all but always check that what's on the plate matches what is beeped in my ear. You learn quick enough to do it when the instructor changes the Morse in the sim, then bawls you out of it for not picking up that you may have tuned the wrong navaid.

As for QSY, Weston is the only place in Ireland I've heard it used (with my limited experience) but no harm in knowing what it is for in case it pops up somewhere else.

Flier

You absolutely have to ident the nav aids. Otherwise you maynot be tracking the correct one, and that is a very bad thing. Most of the big 'uns do it automatically, but you would occasionally have one that doesn't automatically ident, or that is slow to do so and you should manually ident it.

LeftBase

Even through to my MEIR it was still TITS

Tune
Ident
Twist
Steer

Irish Steve

TITS is still valid, checking the Irdent is essential, as the ident can change if there is a fault on the aid (ILS) or it may transmit TST if the aid is not operational, and (ILS) that can happen during the approach. In theory, its supposed to be kept on in the background throughout the approach on an ILS, to ensure that the aid has not failed

Ok, it's archaic, but change is very slow to happen when it has worldwide implications. And yes, the morse test Pre JAA was a PAIN, but it had to be done for anything above a PPL

bluecode

So how do pilots ident navaids. Me? I can easily ident: ..-. ..- -.-. ... ..-. ..-. -.-- -.-- ... .--. .-. .. -.-. -.-

Not sure if that's normal!

FWVT

Xpro wrote: »

In weston re entry, QSY is used pretty much all the time. You will find instructors use it more then anyone else, as they are constantly switching between Dublin FIS and weston.

I have 115 hours flying in and out of Weston and not once have I heard QSY used.

smurfjed

You absolutely have to ident the nav aids. Otherwise you maynot be tracking the correct one

We set desired nav aids for departure, after that its auto-tuning until the approach, even though our system will auto-tune the required approach frequency, we still do it manually and listen to the ident. But we do not continuously listen to it, unless of course its an ADF as this is the only way of knowing if it fails.


smurfjed

Flier

On my type, we also select nav aids for departure and approach. Otherwise it's auto tuning for the rest of the flight. The aircraft automatically idents the nav aid, and so long as the three (or four) letter ident is displayed, the nav aid is idented, and that meets the requirement to continually 'listen'. In fairness for most of the flight we're using GPS and IRS positioning, so we're not actually referencing the VORs at all. No two letter idents - we don't use ADFs anymore.

happy_head

FWVT wrote: »

I have 115 hours flying in and out of Weston and not once have I heard QSY used.

I have about 65 hours (all from EIWT) and I hear it nearly every time I'm out. My instructor used to use it quite regularly as well. It is rare to hear it on Westons frequency because its just "EI-xxx Zone boundary outbound", but hearing it in Dublin FIS is very common.