advice on central heating systems, plumbing, boilers, for renovated house

Linto

Hi, we've just purchased a house that was originally built circa 1970. Its plumbing and heating is in need of a full replacement and upgrade. We have no idea on where to start in looking for advice on central heating systems, pumps, boilers, rads etc. Our architect has calculated numbers of rads but that's about all we have to go on for now. Any do's and dont's or general advice on next steps for us

shane0007

Basically you need to decide on what fuel type you prefer, oil or natural gas or LPG. What fuel have you access to. Obviously full zoning & controls is a must. You can also do some snazzy stuff nowadays. There are plenty of posts here on Boards with lots of helpful info.

TPM

Linto wrote: »

Hi, we've just purchased a house that was originally built circa 1970. Its plumbing and heating is in need of a full replacement and upgrade. We have no idea on where to start in looking for advice on central heating systems, pumps, boilers, rads etc. Our architect has calculated numbers of rads but that's about all we have to go on for now. Any do's and dont's or general advice on next steps for us

As shane said you have decisions to make and choosing what fuel you are going to use is the first thing, Oil, Gas mains(natural) your own tank(LPG), Pellets, solid fuel(coal, logs) or a combination of them.

The next step would be to calculate the heat requirements for your house, heating and hot water.

Once you now these you can determine which boilers are suitable.

You say a full upgrade and replacement, does this include all the pipework as well? if so it may give you more options in relation to rad positions, zoning and control.

Replacing of the water pipes hot and cold might require refurbishing of bathrooms.

The zoning should at minimum be:
1) heating zone for living rooms,
2)heating zone for bed rooms,
3)a zone for hot water.
After that you can do pretty much anything up to individual room control.

In relation to materials it is worth spending a little extra on the likes of valves and controls.

Dont rush into it
Do take your time and think of what you want
Do ask plenty of questions
Dont skimp on the budget
Do listen to advice and ideas but remember in the end its your house and you have to live with the end result and pay for it
Do get quotes and go through them well watching out for extras and exclusions

Linto

thanks TMP!
Yes, it includes the pipes aswell as new backroom - the whole works!
thanks for the advice.

Colm R

I'm a few months ahead of you and after doing a very similar thing in a house built in the 1970's. Mine is a bungalow, which gives you some flexibility.

Firstly, the good news is this winter is a right off for getting the heating going, so you have plenty of time to prepare for next winter.

I replaced all the pipe work and put in a three zoned system, living, beds and water.

Firstly, the original terrible gun barrel piping was in the floors and I did not want to go chasing in to the floor, as we had to live there at the same time. The easier, and cheaper option is to route your pipes through the attic. Easy as a bungalow, but not impossible if its a two storey.

You need to ensure your plumber wraps the pipes in the high density insulation, and if your redoing your attic insulation, cover the pipes with the insulation after.

I also put my hot water cylinder in the attic, along with a pressure pump to give power showers. The electrician put two thermostatically controlled heat lamps near these, and then I built an insulated room around it with 100mm insulation boards. At the same time, I got a solar pannel, so this insulated room in the attic looks really cool, says the geek inside me.

As for the pipes coming down into the room, they come down in the corners, and so far I have some of them boxed up with plaster board and skimmed. A good plaster can do very neat job. Along the floor, I made a box out of skirting. A 2X1 coming out over the pipes, and the 5 inch skirting in front of the pipes. I was worried about this, but when done, it came out very well. My only concern would be children standing on the boxed skirting, and collapsing it on the pipe.

Where the pipes come down the walls, before you box them in, run some conduit down. This gives you an opportunity to have new sockets wired without the need to chase walls.

I have a thermostat in the master bedroom and in the hallway.
The bedroom theremostat, will turn on or off all the bedroom rads. However, in the other bedrooms, I have a fancy dial on the rad to lower or raise the amount of heat. This is handy for unused rooms. The rooms with a thermostat should have a the rad open to full all the time, or else the thermostat will never turn off the heating.

I placed the boiler outside. I got a new one because the old one was useless. I went with oil, and got a high efficiency condenser boiler. I'd recommend putting the boiler outside, because its easier to sort problems or replace in years to come. I see myself getting wood pellet in the future and if I do, any work, or any change to my boiler will involve no work in the house.


You probably know at this stage, a 1970s house is an ordeal and a bit of a money pit. But just try and enjoy it.


EDIT: Talk to a few plumbers and get prices. Don't just go with the lowest price, and maybe pick the most enthusiastic. Ask them if you could see similar work done elsewhere by them. I'd also recommend doing a turnkey job, where they provide everything. This is a bit more expensive, but puts the liability on the plumber. Its very difficult to prove an expert wrong, if he is blaming something that you purchased for a problem in the future.

Linto

Colm R wrote: »

I'm a few months ahead of you and after doing a very similar thing in a house built in the 1970's. Mine is a bungalow, which gives you some flexibility.

Firstly, the good news is this winter is a right off for getting the heating going, so you have plenty of time to prepare for next winter.

I replaced all the pipe work and put in a three zoned system, living, beds and water.

Firstly, the original terrible gun barrel piping was in the floors and I did not want to go chasing in to the floor, as we had to live there at the same time. The easier, and cheaper option is to route your pipes through the attic. Easy as a bungalow, but not impossible if its a two storey.

You need to ensure your plumber wraps the pipes in the high density insulation, and if your redoing your attic insulation, cover the pipes with the insulation after.

I also put my hot water cylinder in the attic, along with a pressure pump to give power showers. The electrician put two thermostatically controlled heat lamps near these, and then I built an insulated room around it with 100mm insulation boards. At the same time, I got a solar pannel, so this insulated room in the attic looks really cool, says the geek inside me.

As for the pipes coming down into the room, they come down in the corners, and so far I have some of them boxed up with plaster board and skimmed. A good plaster can do very neat job. Along the floor, I made a box out of skirting. A 2X1 coming out over the pipes, and the 5 inch skirting in front of the pipes. I was worried about this, but when done, it came out very well. My only concern would be children standing on the boxed skirting, and collapsing it on the pipe.

Where the pipes come down the walls, before you box them in, run some conduit down. This gives you an opportunity to have new sockets wired without the need to chase walls.

I have a thermostat in the master bedroom and in the hallway.
The bedroom theremostat, will turn on or off all the bedroom rads. However, in the other bedrooms, I have a fancy dial on the rad to lower or raise the amount of heat. This is handy for unused rooms. The rooms with a thermostat should have a the rad open to full all the time, or else the thermostat will never turn off the heating.

I placed the boiler outside. I got a new one because the old one was useless. I went with oil, and got a high efficiency condenser boiler. I'd recommend putting the boiler outside, because its easier to sort problems or replace in years to come. I see myself getting wood pellet in the future and if I do, any work, or any change to my boiler will involve no work in the house.


You probably know at this stage, a 1970s house is an ordeal and a bit of a money pit. But just try and enjoy it.


EDIT: Talk to a few plumbers and get prices. Don't just go with the lowest price, and maybe pick the most enthusiastic. Ask them if you could see similar work done elsewhere by them. I'd also recommend doing a turnkey job, where they provide everything. This is a bit more expensive, but puts the liability on the plumber. Its very difficult to prove an expert wrong, if he is blaming something that you purchased for a problem in the future.

So does the sound of the pressure pump bother you? Also, is it okay/efficient to have your boiler so far away from your cylinder?

Colm R

Linto wrote: »

So does the sound of the pressure pump bother you? Also, is it okay/efficient to have your boiler so far away from your cylinder?

The pressure pump can be annoying, but since I built the insulated walls around it, the sound of it is greatly reduced. You hear it while a tap is running, and sometimes in the middle of the night when no tap is running. I think this is caused by a temperature change in the water where the density and the pressure drops slightly, causing the pump to to trigger.

The pump itself is water cooled, not air cooled. So you can surround it tight enough with sound proof material which will also stop it from freezing.

To be honest, I think the noise of the pump is worth it just to have a decent flow in the shower.


The distance from my boiler outside to my cylinder is not that far. Its just outside the backdoor, and it comes through a hole and straight up the wall into the attic. I would say my cylinder is closer the boiler than some or my rads. Its something that your plumber would need to consider. The high density insulation probably looks after it to be honest.

However, my tank is within about 2 feet of my solar panel so I have greater efficiency there - and it shows over the past few days with so much wintry sunshine.

Idbatterim

op are you on a mains gas line?

Linto

Idbatterim wrote: »

op are you on a mains gas line?

Getting Bord Gais connected in coming weeks, so yes I will be. Why?

Idbatterim

thats good, because if you are natural gas is streets ahead of lpg and oil. at minimum zone the living rooms, bedrooms and hot water as has been described. Im not sure if this proposed set up complies with current building regs, but in my family home we have the following for the past 20 years, gas combi boiler, heats the rads and hot water (unlimited hot water on demand) everything just runs from the mains (the pressure is adequate) so no pumps, storage tanks, immersion heaters etc... Extremely cheap and efficient set up.

Linto

Idbatterim wrote: »

thats good, because if you are natural gas is streets ahead of lpg and oil. at minimum zone the living rooms, bedrooms and hot water as has been described. Im not sure if this proposed set up complies with current building regs, but in my family home we have the following for the past 20 years, gas combi boiler, heats the rads and hot water (unlimited hot water on demand) everything just runs from the mains (the pressure is adequate) so no pumps, storage tanks, immersion heaters etc... Extremely cheap and efficient set up.

Thanks, but we have a family of 6 so not sure this system would be cost effective?! Does sound good though..

Idbatterim

Thanks, but we have a family of 6 so not sure this system would be cost effective?! Does sound good though..

i cant see any reason why it isnt extremely cost effective, most if not all boilers now prioritise hot water for taps / showes over heating, so you wont go cold in them. Also it might just mean getting a slightly higher kw output boiler, the difference in price usually miniscule... also if you are thinking of installing grey water system, not would be the time to plumb it in...

Linto

Colm R wrote: »

I'm a few months ahead of you and after doing a very similar thing in a house built in the 1970's. Mine is a bungalow, which gives you some flexibility.

Firstly, the good news is this winter is a right off for getting the heating going, so you have plenty of time to prepare for next winter.

I replaced all the pipe work and put in a three zoned system, living, beds and water.

Firstly, the original terrible gun barrel piping was in the floors and I did not want to go chasing in to the floor, as we had to live there at the same time. The easier, and cheaper option is to route your pipes through the attic. Easy as a bungalow, but not impossible if its a two storey.

You need to ensure your plumber wraps the pipes in the high density insulation, and if your redoing your attic insulation, cover the pipes with the insulation after.

I also put my hot water cylinder in the attic, along with a pressure pump to give power showers. The electrician put two thermostatically controlled heat lamps near these, and then I built an insulated room around it with 100mm insulation boards. At the same time, I got a solar pannel, so this insulated room in the attic looks really cool, says the geek inside me.

As for the pipes coming down into the room, they come down in the corners, and so far I have some of them boxed up with plaster board and skimmed. A good plaster can do very neat job. Along the floor, I made a box out of skirting. A 2X1 coming out over the pipes, and the 5 inch skirting in front of the pipes. I was worried about this, but when done, it came out very well. My only concern would be children standing on the boxed skirting, and collapsing it on the pipe.

Where the pipes come down the walls, before you box them in, run some conduit down. This gives you an opportunity to have new sockets wired without the need to chase walls.

I have a thermostat in the master bedroom and in the hallway.
The bedroom theremostat, will turn on or off all the bedroom rads. However, in the other bedrooms, I have a fancy dial on the rad to lower or raise the amount of heat. This is handy for unused rooms. The rooms with a thermostat should have a the rad open to full all the time, or else the thermostat will never turn off the heating.

I placed the boiler outside. I got a new one because the old one was useless. I went with oil, and got a high efficiency condenser boiler. I'd recommend putting the boiler outside, because its easier to sort problems or replace in years to come. I see myself getting wood pellet in the future and if I do, any work, or any change to my boiler will involve no work in the house.


You probably know at this stage, a 1970s house is an ordeal and a bit of a money pit. But just try and enjoy it.


EDIT: Talk to a few plumbers and get prices. Don't just go with the lowest price, and maybe pick the most enthusiastic. Ask them if you could see similar work done elsewhere by them. I'd also recommend doing a turnkey job, where they provide everything. This is a bit more expensive, but puts the liability on the plumber. Its very difficult to prove an expert wrong, if he is blaming something that you purchased for a problem in the future.

Hi colmr
Do you find the pressure pumps to be noisy when taps are opened? Why type did you go with if you don't mind me asking?

Leiva

I am slap bang in the middle of a full retro fit install of GCH in a 1970's house.

I am also doing a full drylining insulation of all walls, and yes it can end up to be a bit of a money pit.

At the moment all downstairs ceilings are dropped and all joists exposed, so the running of pipe etc is a hell of a lot easier for the plumber, and the electrician for rewiring - oh did I not mention the rewiring? that was a nasty, expensive surprise ok back to the heating sorry I'm rambling (mad)

So I applied for the sEAi grant and got a plumber from m their list of approved installers.
I got a gas meter in and will be installing a 3 zone system with a pump for the shower and a total of 14 rads - note that their a min requirements to meet the grant approval.

My place looks in absolute shįt and the budget is running on empty but I know and have confidence that I'm on the right track to upgrade a very cold and uncomfortable 1970 home into the modern day efficiencies and heating comfort.

I will keep you posted when complete.