wooden Celtic crosses

dublinviking

hi

i have already posted this on archaeology so i am apologizing for posting it again. i don't know how many people read the same boards.

i am looking for any information on wooden celtic crosses in ireland. the earliest mention, occurrence, report, any examples still left in ireland.

i know about early anglian high crosses. and about wood key one. and about osory crosses. i am not sure about the osory ones. do we know that they were the earliest examples of high crosses in Ireland? any pictures and links to books and internet resources would be great.

also also any information on celtic crosses occurrence outside of ireland. i know about england, france and litvania. any other?

any opinion on the origin? angles? vikings?

thanks

Tabnabs

It might be worth your while dropping an email to Dr Kristján Ahronson

http://www.bangor.ac.uk/history/about_the_school/staff/lecture_staff/kristjan_ahronson.php.en

dublinviking

thanks tabnabs

i see you are also interested in sailing and boating. this might be interesting then. it connects celtic crosses and navigation:

Is a Celtic Cross a scientific instrument as well as a sacred symbol?
It allows the navigation of the planet without a time piece, the discovery of Natures mathematics and the construction of ancient sacred buildings using astrology. The philosophy behind all the great religions rest within what the cross reveals. The ancient scientific and spiritual wisdom that has shaped our past and still influences our future is part of a forgotten and often hidden system that reaches back beyond the current established religions, further than Ancient Egypt into an age where Mankind lived in harmony with Nature.
Resurrected by Crichton E M Miller in 1997 the ancient working cross has been awarded two Patents.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_5.htm

i would like to hear your oppinion.

by the way found more celtic crosses in gotland

it seems that they came to england first with angles, then moved from there to ireland, then found its way to gotland.

Tabnabs

dublinviking wrote: »

thanks tabnabs

i see you are also interested in sailing and boating. this might be interesting then. it connects celtic crosses and navigation:




http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_5.htm

i would like to hear your oppinion.

I'm no expert on historical navigation, but I would be deeply sceptical of his assertions and conclusions. Especially getting an accuracy to within 3 miles anywhere in the world. I call shenanigans. I wonder what an organisation like the http://www.rin.org.uk/ would make of his work?

It has also struck me for a long time that the "Celtic cross" bears a remarkable resemblance to the sun wheel symbol which pre-dates christianity by a long, long time. The decoration, although apparently similar to some Scandinavian artwork, may just be a local variation on something much older?

Ipso

dublinviking wrote: »

thanks tabnabs

i see you are also interested in sailing and boating. this might be interesting then. it connects celtic crosses and navigation:




http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_5.htm

i would like to hear your oppinion.

by the way found more celtic crosses in gotland

it seems that they came to england first with angles, then moved from there to ireland, then found its way to gotland.

The mankind living in harmony with nature bit has my new age meter going off.

dublinviking

I'm no expert on historical navigation, but I would be deeply sceptical of his assertions and conclusions. Especially getting an accuracy to within 3 miles anywhere in the world.

The mankind living in harmony with nature bit has my new age meter going off.

regardless of the story attached, i think that the guy could be on to something. it looks simple and efficient. remember the viking crystal compass. simple and effective. you need something that uneducated sailors can use.

as for the origin of the "celtic" cross, i personally don't think it has anything to do with Celts. and it definitely predates Christianity. and from what i am finding it really is an accidental in Ireland. it survived here because Ireland was remote and isolated.

if you look at vinca script you will among other symbols also see a "celtic" cross.
also early orthodox monasteries in Serbia have "celtic" crosses.
but the most interesting thing is that the custom of erecting wooden "celtic" standing crosses has survived in Lithuania and in south eastern Serbia to this day. in both places they have stone versions as well, but they did not replace the wooden ones.
so this makes me believe that the whole standing "celtic" cross thin may have originated among Slavs and was brought to England during Anglo-Saxon invasions, when some northern Slavic tribes were members of the Angles tribal alliance.
i don't know if the custom survived in any other Slavic land. i am looking into it.

pedroeibar1

Tabnabs wrote: »

I'm no expert on historical navigation, but I would be deeply sceptical of his assertions and conclusions. Especially getting an accuracy to within 3 miles anywhere in the world. I call shenanigans. I wonder what an organisation like the http://www.rin.org.uk/ would make of his work?

It has also struck me for a long time that the "Celtic cross" bears a remarkable resemblance to the sun wheel symbol which pre-dates christianity by a long, long time. The decoration, although apparently similar to some Scandinavian artwork, may just be a local variation on something much older?

Like Wibbs I’m no expert on historic navigation but do know a bit as I learned the modern versions years ago. IMO there are lots of assertions, little detail and much BS in that article by Miller – he seems a von Danniken type of character.

The earth is round, therefore measurements are calculated in degrees, minutes and seconds so it is to be expected that any instrument would be circular, just like the pre-Christian astrolabe. All the arguments Miller makes for the Celtic cross could be applied to the quadrant – a quarter circle of turn used for measuringthe angular height of a star, the sun, a building or a mountain above a horizon. (Real navigators today use a later and more developed version, the sextant, one sixth of a turn).

Navigators have known for centuries that the height of Polaris (North or Pole Star) above the horizon changes according to the viewer’s latitude. If you were blue water sailing from say Norway to Iceland and you knew the height of Polaris at Reykjavik , you just sailed west along the line (of latitude) that had Polaris at X height and you would eventually reach your destination. (It’s how we got ‘Plane sailing’, an easy way of finding your way by sailing along a line). Same in the Southern oceans – Polynesian and Maori sailors used the Southern Cross – its bottom star is four fingers above the horizon at Hawaii. Sailing south from Hawaii the Equator is one hand width and two hands is the distance for Tahiti. All early navigators understood the heavenly bodies and used zenith stars and apogees and perigees. Those will put you within 50 nautical miles of a known landmass so other signs (birds, waves, currents, etc) can then be used. I’ve heard it said that coconuts with a little water in them (for a mirror) and pre-drilled holes for stars were part of the kit.

+1 with Wibbs on the accuracy claimed by Miller; even today anyone using a sextant would be doing well to consistently fix a series of positions in a circle with a radius of several nautical miles.

I’m not sure what the very early Irish sailors did but I’m not a fan of St. Brendan the Navigator, he just went and trusted to God to bring him there :eek:.

dublinviking

as i said i just thought it interesting. came across it while looking for wooden celtic crosses.

Ipso

Tabnabs wrote: »

I'm no expert on historical navigation, but I would be deeply sceptical of his assertions and conclusions. Especially getting an accuracy to within 3 miles anywhere in the world. I call shenanigans. I wonder what an organisation like the http://www.rin.org.uk/ would make of his work?

It has also struck me for a long time that the "Celtic cross" bears a remarkable resemblance to the sun wheel symbol which pre-dates christianity by a long, long time. The decoration, although apparently similar to some Scandinavian artwork, may just be a local variation on something much older?

I also read the circular part of the cross may represent a wreath of some kind.

Smiles35

I just say it's something simple about the round circle as part of the cross. They were all getting worried about the 'big order' down south swallowing them up. Everything cultural.

Seeing up, de-focuses the eye to the sky behind.