Do you care about the Pro12?

Mal-Adjusted

Detractors have often accused pro12 teams about not really caring about the competition, i.e. rotating squads heavily, but what about the fans?

Personally, I love it but I know a lot of people who get very excited when the start of the Heineken Cup season but give a big "meh" when the pro12 season starts and only seem to care about the inter pro's. obviously there's a good lot who get all excited for the pro12 but it never seems like many.

so anyway, to cut a long-winded question short, as fans of an Irish side (or a Welsh, Scotish or Italian side) do you care about the Pro12?

awec

Yes. I care about it. I'd love to win it.

I wouldn't love to win it at the expense of poor showings in the HEC though.

There are a lot of dud games in it though - not a lot of craic if you're not up near the top.

[Jackass]

Yes but I don't think the sides take it seriously enough

I'd say about 5 seasons ago it wasn't as big a deal as it is now, but yes, the league has surged in importance and in popularity, mostly due to the best teams all putting high priority on it and being so competitive at the top. The play-offs have added greatly to it too. (I say reluctantly, as a Leinster fan...)

The days of the league being a nothing competition are long gone.

Coleridge

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

I care about it but nowhere near as much as the Heineken cup. Also very much dislike the idea of the team topping the table not being crowned champions. Ulster look like we will win the league at a canter but will have to negotiate two tricky games to win the trophy.

Also playing while the six nations is on with essentially reserve players and foreigners definitely reduces the credibility of the tournament.

justsomebloke

Added a Poll

Hoop66

Yes but I don't think the sides take it seriously enough

For me, it's (mostly) decent quality rugby on the telly. Think about what there was to watch TV-wise 10 years ago?

Plus I need an excuse to go to the pub, "but it's Leinster v Glasgow love, I HAVE to go"...

liammur

I only care about it when we're out of the H Cup. Some of the teams in the Rabo are as good as anywhere, well 4 of them to be precise. The big problem is there are too many weak teams.

chippers

Atari Zebra

The majority of games i've watched in the Pro-12 this season have been absolute borefests.

connemara man

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

I like it, making HEC participation based on position would make it a better competition, more competitive matches and more teams trying to rise up the table, battles for that last place etc... would help a lot

rrpc

Yes but I don't think the sides take it seriously enough

There are some borefests, but I figure every league has those and it's sometimes the least likely match up that gives the best entertainment.

As somebody else said, we'd have nothing to watch on FTA telly without it. I went to the added expense of getting Setanta to watch matches, so I really appreciate it now that it's free.

So big thumbs up from me and I'll watch pretty much any match that's on if I'm around to see it.

RuggieBear

i want to win the pro12 more than the Hcup (and now the amlin!) this year.

Teferi

It's grown in importance for every year Leinster have lost it at the final hurdle to be honest. I really like the Pro12 now, sure there are bore fests but that happens in every league.

Coleridge wrote: »

Also very much dislike the idea of the team topping the table not being crowned champions.

There have been suggestions before to award a regular season leader cup type thing and then have an overall winner sort of like American Football. It's a suggestion I like, a team who manages to stay at the top the whole season deserves recognition.

Winters

Teferi wrote: »

It's grown in importance for every year Leinster have lost it at the final hurdle to be honest. I really like the Pro12 now, sure there are bore fests but that happens in every league.



There have been suggestions before to award a regular season leader cup type thing and then have an overall winner sort of like American Football. It's a suggestion I like, a team who manages to stay at the top the whole season deserves recognition.

Every team knows the story before the season starts, I think a home semi and a home final is award enough for the table toppers.

molloyjh

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

I like it, and find most teams take it seriously. I voted for the "Yes, but the teams don't take it seriously" because when you get games like Cardiff in the RDS where they weren't arsed at all it can be quite frustrating. The WRU themselves obviously don't rate it too highly either with things like the Williams testimonial vs Australia in 2011.

It has certainly grown in importance generally though over the last few years which is a huge positive. Where it might come a bit undone is if issues with the other unions continue. They all have their own problems - Scottish rugby is in the doldrums and with only 2 clubs most of the country is not represented, the Welsh people haven't gotten behind their regions in as much as they need to and the Italians are seemingly plagued with political issues (in Italy you say :eek:). All these factors have led to financial issues which are causing the various teams all sorts of trouble. Glasgow don't have a main sponsor this year, the Welsh regions can't hold onto their key players and Aironi had to wind up at the end of last season.

Who_me pointed out another interesting element in the HEC/Amlin thread which I hadn't considered before. And that's the fact that for the majority of games people have to travel abroad, which limits away support. Getting fans mingling properly always adds to the occasion and the more "occasions" in the league calendar the better. Unfortunately we can't just hop into the car and drive to and from Edinburgh in the same day. You've to get a flight, and probably accomodation etc.

The league has become very important to me and the rugby fans I know here. I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done to sort the issues out in the other unions though. Position based HEC qualification would help make the WRU take the competition more seriously for example, but would it help get the fans interested? Or does the region thing just require more time to bed down and develop grass root support?

The league is incredibly young compared to the AP or T14. And I think any conversation about it's quality compared to the HEC or the other leagues needs to bear that in mind.

.ak

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

The league for me is the reason Irish teams compete so well at European level. Regardless of some of the showings it's week in week out rugby that develops sides.

I love it I have to say, there's something very satisfying about a long season league. I think the playoffs have brought a great aspect to it also.

Just imagine what it would be like if the welsh teams treated it better.

bilston

Yes but I don't think the sides take it seriously enough

Play Offs work, it may not be traditional but then the Pro 12/CL is only 10-12 years old anyway so tradition should have nothing to do with it.

I'm surprised to read that some posters don't care about it, I'd have thought most rugby fans would care about it. They could make the qualification rules for Europe a bit tighter (debated to death elsewhere) and that would make the league more competitive, other than that it's fine the way it is, the Welsh fans need to buy into it a bit more though and unfortunately I think their hearts still lie with an Anglo/Welsh league.

GerM

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

Losing last year's final hurt much more than losing the HEC semi in Toulouse. Does it have the same prestige as the HEC? Of course not. Is it something I feel strongly about and very badly want Leinster to win? Absolutely.

I think it was CFH that hit the nail on the head on the other thread when he said that a major issue with the league is that, come February, half the sides have nothing to play for and are basically going through the motions. Cardiff, Edinburgh, Treviso, Connacht, Dragons and Zebre essentially have nothing to play for now for the rest of the season aside from pride which is a far from ideal. What worth is it when half the league have nothing to lose by putting out their second string from March onwards and sending their front liners off for elective surgeries etc. to get fit for next season?

molloyjh

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

bilston wrote: »

Play Offs work, it may not be traditional but then the Pro 12/CL is only 10-12 years old anyway so tradition should have nothing to do with it.

I'm surprised to read that some posters don't care about it, I'd have thought most rugby fans would care about it. They could make the qualification rules for Europe a bit tighter (debated to death elsewhere) and that would make the league more competitive, other than that it's fine the way it is, the Welsh fans need to buy into it a bit more though and unfortunately I think their hearts still lie with an Anglo/Welsh league.

Is that not more of an issue with them not buying into the regions rather than not buying into the league though?

molloyjh

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

GerM wrote: »

Losing last year's final hurt much more than losing the HEC semi in Toulouse. Does it have the same prestige as the HEC? Of course not. Is it something I feel strongly about and very badly want Leinster to win? Absolutely.

I think it was CFH that hit the nail on the head on the other thread when he said that a major issue with the league is that, come February, half the sides have nothing to play for and are basically going through the motions. Cardiff, Edinburgh, Treviso, Connacht, Dragons and Zebre essentially have nothing to play for now for the rest of the season aside from pride which is a far from ideal. What worth is it when half the league have nothing to lose by putting out their second string from March onwards and sending their front liners off for elective surgeries etc. to get fit for next season?

The only way to deal with that is to have some form of relegation though. Not sure how that would/could work in the Pro12.

If you look at the league table now Connacht realistically have nothing to play for. To qualify for the HEC they'd need to be in the top 5 (assuming 1 side from each union gets through). They are currently 18 points off that with 9 games to go. Dragons are 24 points off that. HEC qualification would make a handful of games at the end of the season a bit more competitive, i.e. those games where both teams are vying for places.

I actually half like the idea of seeding based on league position though. It would need to be done through out the ERC unions, but it would be a generally fairer way of determining the groups. You wouldn't have daft things like Clermont as second seed. It would also give each team something to fight for in every game in the league from start to finish.

Lelantos

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

Perhaps use it to promote rugby in mainland Europe. The teams who perform so badly in the early rounds of the Amlin should be brought in & a second division created, with promotion & relegation between both divisions to encourage the lesser sides.

thomond2006

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

GerM wrote: »

I think it was CFH that hit the nail on the head on the other thread when he said that a major issue with the league is that, come February, half the sides have nothing to play for and are basically going through the motions. Cardiff, Edinburgh, Treviso, Connacht, Dragons and Zebre essentially have nothing to play for now for the rest of the season aside from pride which is a far from ideal. What worth is it when half the league have nothing to lose by putting out their second string from March onwards and sending their front liners off for elective surgeries etc. to get fit for next season?

Remember when a couple of Scottish internationals were rested post Six Nations 2011? That really took the biscuit.

molloyjh

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

thomond2006 wrote: »

Remember when a couple of Scottish internationals were rested post Six Nations 2011? That really took the biscuit.

Surely the Wales vs Australia game in December 2011 was a bigger slap in the face? The resting of the Scottish internationals was just stupid as they needed game time.

rrpc

Yes but I don't think the sides take it seriously enough

molloyjh wrote: »

The only way to deal with that is to have some form of relegation though. Not sure how that would/could work in the Pro12.

Not really possible (or desirable) though. The whole point is to strengthen rugby in the regions involved and stretching resources to take in a second tier will just kill a lot of clubs off.

If you look at the league table now Connacht realistically have nothing to play for. To qualify for the HEC they'd need to be in the top 5 (assuming 1 side from each union gets through). They are currently 18 points off that with 9 games to go. Dragons are 24 points off that. HEC qualification would make a handful of games at the end of the season a bit more competitive, i.e. those games where both teams are vying for places.

Even at the bottom, every team should have objectives, be it getting a win, two wins, not being bottom, increasing points or whatever. There's always something to play for if you've a mind to it.

chippers

Atari Zebra

I'm surprised that the competition is getting such good reviews. I would see the games up until the playoffs more akin to training games. No continuity in players taking part other than for squad members and NIQ's. Front line players taking part from time to time. I'd see its best attribute as facilitating squad players and younger players coming through.

But there are not many decent clashes other than the provincial rivalries. Even the Leinster v Ulster clash over Christmas, which could have been a great game, was downgraded massively with the loss of so may players.

jamiedav2011

I agree that for a Leinster fan, losing three times in the past few years has stung badly, and I'd dearly love to capture it this year, particularly when we've a bit of a clear run in now.

The standard of reffing and player management programmes definitely take away from it though. Reffing in particular can be utterly farcical.

Gambas

Yes but I don't think the sides take it seriously enough

awec wrote: »

not a lot of craic if you're not up near the top.

Not sure that's the case. I think Connacht fans see it as our main competition and enjoy it for what it is, probably because we field our first choice side every week.

Gambas

Yes but I don't think the sides take it seriously enough

molloyjh wrote: »

If you look at the league table now Connacht realistically have nothing to play for. To qualify for the HEC they'd need to be in the top 5 (assuming 1 side from each union gets through). They are currently 18 points off that with 9 games to go. Dragons are 24 points off that. HEC qualification would make a handful of games at the end of the season a bit more competitive, i.e. those games where both teams are vying for places.

Barring a couple of Amlin semi's and the one season when Ulster were threatening to finish below us, when have Connacht ever realistically had 'something to play for' if you use that narrow criteria?

Last year Ulster can to the Sportsground near the end of the season. One side had no hope of winning the league, the other was in with a shout. The team who had nothing to play for fielded a full strength side while the supposedly with something to play for rested players prior to their HEC semi and got beaten.

The problem in so much as one exists is, at the top of the league, where it is dragged apart by the HEC, not the bottom.

P_1

I like the league itself, the playoffs are an excellent bit of excitement towards the end and like many other Leinster fans, the 3 final defeats do really hurt. The problem is that it tends to be diluted slightly by:

1 - Too many dead rubbers towards the end
2 - The Unions forcing teams to field weakened sides
3 - The problems in getting to away matches and the lack of occasion or atmosphere that this creates.

irishbucsfan

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

I really like the Pro 12 and I watch as many of the games as I can. Itd be better with qualification based on final league position but it's still a good competirion.

If I was a neutral I'd prefer the AP and the Top 14...but iI'm not!

Utopia Parkway

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

I wouldn't mind if the top 6 teams made the playoffs to keep more sides interested as the season goes on. Then 3 plays 6 and 4 plays 5 with the winners to play 1 and 2 in the semis.

So there would be competition to get one of the top 2 spots to get home advantage and a week off in the playoffs and there would be competition to get into the top 6.

Heroditas

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

I agree that for a Leinster fan, losing three times in the past few years has stung badly, and I'd dearly love to capture it this year, particularly when we've a bit of a clear run in now.

The standard of reffing and player management programmes definitely take away from it though. Reffing in particular can be utterly farcical.

We don't really have a clear run in though. We're still in the knockout stages of a European competition that will require the use of all of our resources.

From a Connacht viewpoint the league is our most important thing most years but thats not to say the league is perfect by any means. We aren't going to progress past the group stages in the HC and even the Challenge Cup gets populated with some strong dropdown sides so its tough to make progress in Europe.

However, in terms of something tangible to fight for the league is over within a few weeks for Connacht, realistically over 22 games Connacht aren't going to catch any of the other 3 in the medium term at least.

You'd hope the squad will push on to try and improve the league placing each year but really at this stage all that Connacht have to play for is whether we finish somewhere between 8th and 11th none of which will benefit or cost you in terms of HC Qualification or seeding. Top 4 for play offs is great and has added to the competition but the shakeup of the HC qualification can't come soon enough for me to add a bit of bite to the competition.

There is 2 leagues within the league at present and while the top half is competitive and the bottom half of sides are being left behind.

Almost every game in the Aviva is significant at this stage of the year, you have top 4, HC qualification and relegation, a couple of good or bad results for any team can change everything.

Whereas already the sides in the bottom half of the Rabo are playing out time until the end of the season. Cardiff just need the odd win here and ther to keep ahead of Dragons for HC qualification while Edinburgh and the two Italians are already guaranteed HC Rugby and Connachts main interest from here until May is whether Leinster take the Amlin seriously and go on and win it.

Both the league and both European trophies need a shakeup if they are to reach their full potential.

bilston

Yes but I don't think the sides take it seriously enough

molloyjh wrote: »

Is that not more of an issue with them not buying into the regions rather than not buying into the league though?

I think its both but barring a monumental shift in Welsh rugby they arent going back to their club system.

phog

I love the league, seldom miss a home game and usually head to Galway and Dublin for our away games, though haven't made either in the last two years. In a way it's our bread and butter and without it I doubt the provinces would survive on H/cup only. We're very lucky that we get to see so many of the games on TV even if that has a knock on effect on attendance.

I think the semis and final has added to the profile of the competition.

Mal-Adjusted

Lelantos wrote: »

Perhaps use it to promote rugby in mainland Europe. The teams who perform so badly in the early rounds of the Amlin should be brought in & a second division created, with promotion & relegation between both divisions to encourage the lesser sides.

Do you mean a division made up of weaker European sides? with P/R to the Pro12?

bilston wrote: »

I think its both but barring a monumental shift in Welsh rugby they arent going back to their club system.

in a link about welsh attendance that someone posted in the other thread, Cardiff Blues had a successful open training session in front of about a thousand kids who all started chanting "Cardiff Blues" at the end. Very few kids under 16 or so can even remember when the club scene was big in Wales and I think it's the next generation that the regions should focus on. It's unfortunate, and would no doubt lead to cries of a "lost generation" from current rugby people, but there's no way wales can go back to the way things were.

Treviso seem to be holding their own but Zebra are going nowhere fast, like Aironi before them. Maybe Italy should have brought up an existing Super 10 club instead.

Scotland are in a similar boat where one side is doing well but the other is completely adrift.

fanki na pengin

I love the playoffs (Leinster fan), but it must get boring an tedious for the bottom half after around the 6nations.

It'd be nice to keep them interested with some sort of mini playoff around the time of the other playoffs, with the winner getting the 6th HEC place or something.

So....top 4 playoffs, 5th place gets to sit on their laurels.

6th through 10th get to playoff for the 6th HEC spot.

Unfortunately, while keeping people interested, it'd probably still mean certain countries may not be represented.

Edit: I should point out, this is with the 6/6/6 format that is being discussed.

The obvious problems arise with when to have the playoffs. If they happen AFTER the EC finals, then it's possible the two finalists may already know BOTH are through (for example Ulster win the HEC and Connacht and Cardiff are in the final).

backgreen

No due to teams not taking it seriously

scotland are in catch 22,the borders is where the rugby tradition is ,but glasgow/edinburgh have the population

thomond2006

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

It can't help the Pro12 that the Welsh regions have become "selling" clubs to use a football term, the latest move is Fotuali'i leaving Ospreys for Saints.

Coburger

I'm interested in the Pro 12 but it's a shame that few of the teams are that interested in it.

It'll only become a real worthwhile league when just the top 6 teams from it qualify for the H Cup - this is the only way to get the teams really interested in it.

who_me

Yes but I prefer the Aviva Premiership and Top 14

thomond2006 wrote: »

It can't help the Pro12 that the Welsh regions have become "selling" clubs to use a football term, the latest move is Fotuali'i leaving Ospreys for Saints.

The WRU salary cap, the poor attendances, and the poor performances in the HEC... Not too surprising they're struggling to hang onto their players. I don't think any of it is helping the Pro12.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Yes but I don't think the sides take it seriously enough

who_me wrote: »

The WRU salary cap, the poor attendances, and the poor performances in the HEC... Not too surprising they're struggling to hang onto their players. I don't think any of it is helping the Pro12.

I don't think that any of the regions are anywhere close to the salary cap in terms of expenditure.