Debt Recovery Problem? HELP

Dublin_lad28

I am trying to chase a debt from a former employer and needs peoples advice. I worked for this company in Dublin City Centre for roughly a year but about 6 months in, my employer began underpaying my monthly wages. He began paying me in cash to the sum of what would be only a week or two weeks work. All the time he would keep saying he had new contracts coming in at the end of the month, and that I would get paid. I was not the only one in the company this was happening too, and slowly but surely they began leaving to get other "paying" jobs. I stuck with it, in the the hope that I was get my money back but it never came and I was forced to leave last October for a new job.

I've tried chasing the employer ever since to claim back my money which is roughly around 9k, but he has just given me excuse after excuse. I also tried scaring him with legal letters but actually didn't fully pursue that avenue as I thought it would cost a lot and ultimately I mightn't get anything back. I also genuinely thought he had no money to chase after. I met him a few months ago and he said he was going to pay me back half of the money, through his own good will because I've been patient for so long. He said I was the only person in the company that was going to be getting money back. He made it out that he was doing me a favour. I accepted the payoff of 4.5k and trusted him that he would pay it off in installments over 6 months or so. But when the first payment was due he was nowhere to be seen, not answering his phone or my emails.

I spent a lot of time searching on the net for info about him and found out that he had opened a new business (as a co-partner) in the same address as the old company. I duely paid a little visit to his office one day and was greeted by the co-partner who said he wasn't there. I noticed a brand newly decorated office with nice new computers.

Now I'm in a situation where I don't know what to do. I want to get my money back but because his old company is actually gone now, do I have any legs to stand on? Do I have any right to walk into his new place and lift a few macbooks? Any help is much appreciated

Procrastastudy

Get proper legal advice but here's my take.

You were being paid in cash - I take it with very little 'book keeping', this may not endear you to court/revenue/social who you might also be able to claim some money through. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The company you were working for - was it limited liability? If so then yes the money might be gone.

The acknowledgement of the debt - have you any proof; e-mail, voice mail etc.

As for walking into the new place and lifting mac books - that's essentially 'distress' which I don't think can be done anymore and probably never could be done in relation to wages (open to correction), regardless you'd need to prove a legal right first and it's dubious.

As said before get legal advice the above is just some (poorly thought out) ideas to pursue, all of which will probably need some sort fo legal advice.

Dublin_lad28

Thanks for your reply

Yes I was paid in cash for the most part, although I do have a contract signed by my former employer stating the time I worked there. I'm not sure if the company was limited liability. I do remember him saying the debt was with the company and not "him". This was after I rang his wife because he wasn't asnwering my calls. I then got throguh to him and told him I didn't care where he got teh money from, as long as it was going to me. I have invoices that I sent to him, and a track of all money paid to me. But this isn't signed by him or anything like that.

It's such a large amount of money that I just can't let go. I understand because of what's gone on, I may not be able to legally get anything back. I just wanted to know any other suggestions people might have to recliam the debt. Has anyone ever experienced something similar? I ring him and his company every day I'd say, but still nothing. It's very frustrating to have someone constantly lie to you and not see throguh their promises. I just can't let him away with it.

ABajaninCork

Make sure your paperwork is in order with Revenue. Check that your stamp's been paid.

Get a brief. In that order.

Mrs OBumble

Dublin_lad28 wrote: »

I have invoices that I sent to him, and a track of all money paid to me.

Why invoices?

Were you actually an employee or a contractor?

The easiest way to tell the difference: when you were being paid properly by him, was PAYE being taken out your your payments before you got them?

tatli_lokma

If you were an employee (not a contracter as Mrs OBumble explains above) then contact Workplace Relations (formerly NERA) and get advice from them as to how to make a claim under the payment of wages act (although there is a time limit of 6mths when you have to make a claim).

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/pay_and_employment/leaving_work_without_being_paid.html

Dublin_lad28

No I was more or less a contractor. Even though I worked 9-5.30 every day. I never signed a contract at the beginning. I was always paid either by cash or into my account, and no PAYE was ever subtracted.

ABajaninCork

Dublin_lad28 wrote: »

No I was more or less a contractor. Even though I worked 9-5.30 every day. I never signed a contract at the beginning. I was always paid either by cash or into my account, and no PAYE was ever subtracted.

If no PAYE/USC or PRSI was ever subtracted, that would indicate you were self-employed. Did you make these payments yourself?

Dublin_lad28

I never made any payments because up until a few months before I left, I understood I was an employee and not a contractor

tatli_lokma

what you understood won't really help - what did your actual contract state. Was it a contract of employment or was it a contract for you to provide services. If the first, then you could pursue it as an employee on the basis that you were not paid correctly. If it was as a contractor and the contract clearly states this, then I think you will have to go down the route of claiming from the company as a creditor. Either way, you need legal advice.

tatli_lokma

Dublin_lad28 wrote: »

I never made any payments because up until a few months before I left, I understood I was an employee and not a contractor

also, I'm not sure why you would think you were an employee if you had to provide invoices??? And as an employee if you knew no PAYE was being deducted, why didn't you query this??? just wondering, as it seems strange.
anyway, talk to a solicitor - that is really your only option now.

Dublin_lad28

Ok, well I worked there for a year and the first 7 months I never received a payslip so yes I did wonder about that. But when I was getting money into my account, it was never the full monthly wage so I was assuming he was deducting tax/prsi off it. When I realised that this wasn't the case, he said I was actually a contractor and that I should supply him with invoices for the work so far. I remembered getting a contract from him when I first started that states I would be on an initial trial period of 3 months with a view to extend. I never got any indication that I was a contractor the whole time. It took him 7 months to tell me I was actually a contractor and not an employee.

Dublin_lad28

I just checked the contract I received from my employer after 7 months. It's on contractor terms. I definately remember getting something when I first began working there stating I would be on a trial period then extended to full time, as an employee

tatli_lokma

Dublin_lad28 wrote: »

I just checked the contract I received from my employer after 7 months. It's on contractor terms. I definately remember getting something when I first began working there stating I would be on a trial period then extended to full time, as an employee

well unless you can find a copy of that contract, its not much good to you and the one you got at 7 mths is all you can go on.

Dublin_lad28

Ok but even so, he still hasn't paid me what I'm owed...be it as a contractor.

tatli_lokma

as I and others have said, your only recourse at this stage is via the legal route, so you will have to contact a solicitor and speak with him/her about your options. No one on here can give legal advice. Not really sure what else you want us to say?

Mrs OBumble

Ok, you were a contractor (albiet an unaware one) so I'm moving this Entrepreneurship & Business Management.

If the mods there don't like it, they can flick it back to Work and Jobs, but I really think you'll get better help there.

Peterdalkey

If the original business was a limited company and has ceased trading, you have basically no hope of recovering any monies by traditional means. It appears from your posts that you are in a rather large mess in relation to your own tax affairs, exacerbated by not even being sure as to the basis on which you worked with that company.

If it was not a limited company, well then he and the other directors/owners are liable for the debt to you. I this case I would threaten him/them with going to the Revenue http://www.revenue.ie/en/contact/investigations-prosecutions-division.html and reporting him for PAYE PRSI fraud... and keep chasing him. The idea is to get him to the point where it is easier cheaper to pay you!!

The legal route is probably as waste of time and money, if you could get anyone to take it on without proper paperwork and records. Learn that lesson and don't get in to such a mess again!


Cheers

peter

srsly78

OP just be aware that you might be in trouble yourself for not paying tax. Sort this out fast or you might get penalised even more. Using your dodgy customer as an excuse will not impress the Revenue.

If you were a self-employed person sending invoices then you are responsible for your own taxes. Talk to an accountant.

I have a similar problem myself, a customer in the UK is not coughing up. Luckily in the UK you can use the small claims court for amounts up to £5000 (I am owed more than this but am happy to limit the claim) so I am pursuing that route - does not involve expensive lawyers or much hassle. Maybe you can do something similar in Ireland? I think the small claims court here is for consumers only tho, not business to business.