Very nervous rescue dog.

Ophiopogon

So I really need some help...I got a dog from the local shelter on Saturday. A female collie (well they said she's a border collie but I really think she's a collie x perhaps with a terrier) approx 4/5 years old. She was dumped at the shelter a few months ago so I've no clue to her previous life.

She's very underweight but otherwise appears healthy. She may have been abused in the past as she cowers a lot esp if you move too fast or make a loud noise.

My problem is how to approach training given her extreme nervousness. Any time I say a stern no she gets upset and so wouldn't be able to see what I'm actually saying no to.

I know it's only been a few days but there are some issues that I really need to get control of, namely the fact that she keeps pooing on the top landing. My housemate believes it's some sort of marking behavior but either way I not sure how to react at this point. I tried praising when she goes outside and not acknowledging it when she goes on the landing but tonight I ended up shouting at her when she did it as we had just come in from a long walk. That again didn't work as she just got even more upset.

As I said I know it's only been a few days and I don't expect instant results, it's just that I'm really worried now that I've bitten off more than I can chew. There is already another dog in the house who is the most chilled out dog, I really want this to work out and I really do not want to increase her anxiety.

Whispered

Can you confine her to one room, the kitchen would be best. You don't know if she has ever been house trained so giving her full access to the house is only going to confuse her.

She's nervous so you really need to work on your relationship in as soft a way as you can manage. By shouting at her you are getting your relationship off to a bad start and it will make her worse.

You haven't bitten off more than you can chew, so don't worry. You already have a chilled out dog and this might help her. How does she get along with the other dog?

If, for now, you can confine her to one room, and take a very soft approach to all interaction. Don't force her to be with you or anything, let her come to you. Potter around the room, cooking or even just sit in the room reading, anything which will have you in the room but without all your attention on her will help her fell more confident in your company. It will also allow you to keep an eye on her toilet signals so you can get her out the back before she goes on the floor.

I'd also recommend getting her a crate. It will help her to feel more secure.

Really though the most important thing is to take everything slowly and softly.

Well done on taking the poor little girl on. She really needs your understanding at the moment but it will be worth it.

EDIT: I doubt the pooing on the top landing is marking behaviour, more likely she thinks this is the best place to go for some reason. Maybe you caught her in the act in another room and gave out to her? So she thinks the landing is a safer place to go. If you give out to her after she goes, she has no idea why she's in trouble so won't associate it with the little gift on the landing.

DBB

She may have been abused, but chances are that most of her problem is due to chronic undersocialisation for the environment she's now expected to live in: this is the case for so many collies and collie x in this country. That these dogs have suffered physical abuse is a common misapprehension: lack of socialisation is at least as psychologically disabling for a dog as physical abuse, except that the former is more common than the latter.

The bottom line is, if she's that scared, you must get off her case: she's pooping on your top landing because chances are she has no idea where else she should be going. You could have a dog so nervous that she only goes whenever she gets a break away from human gaze. If she has "safely" pooped on the landing once, it's only natural that she'll return there to go again. You'll need to go back to basics, and treat her like a puppy that needs to be housetrained from scratch.

Remember, she has no idea who you are, where she is, who the others in your house are, who the other dog is. She may never have been in a house before, let alone have to act sociably with people. She sounds like a typical unsocialised dog who has no coping skills, and all of a sudden she finds herself the centre of attention, in a house, in close proximity with people she doesn't know, so you gotta cut her some slack!
How nervous are we talking here? Can you pet her? Handle her? Walk towards her? Put a harness on her?

I'd suggest you curtail her access to parts of the house you can't tolerate her pooping in, and indeed curtailing her to a playpen/crate combo until you've built up a bit of a relationship with her: she has no reason to trust you just yet, that'll come with time.

When you're at home with her, leave a lead attached to her to trail around the house so that she can be quickly caught and moved (to the back garden to poop, for example) without you having to make a grab at her, or shout at her, which is going to seriously, and I mean seriously set back any progress you make with her. You've got to set up her environment so that you never have to shout at her, and if that means curtailing free access to the house, and using the lead to move her from A to B, then so be it. Do not leave a lead attached to her when unsupervised, for safety's sake.

As for obedience training, forget about it for a while, especially if she's really scared, hiding under the table or avoiding contact with you. Just leave her alone, unless she approaches you. Scared rescue dogs need a LOT of time, and a LOT of patience.. most of the time you give them in the early months is time filled with doing nothing with them!
Indeed, if she's hiding or avoiding contact, you're better off almost pretending she's not there at all. She'll be watching what's going on, and will eventually realise that there's nothing too horrible going on, and will only then start to make strides in confidence... you cannot speed up this process by force, this has to be done at her pace.
Equipment-wise, I'd strongly suggest a ThunderShirt (if she'll tolerate you putting it on), and a DAP diffuser plugged in close to her den. A playpen to curtail her, ideally attached to a crate which is full of soft bedding and covered with a blanket.

I can't emphasise this enough, this new dog is going to need a lot of time, and a lot of patience. She's not a suitable dog to have in a busy house: she needs a steady, same-y routine every day, because scared dogs absolutely need predictability. And that's where you have to work hardest, is to create a predictable environment for her.

Edited to add: I was writing as Whispered posted, but good to see there's unanimity in the approach to take with your new dog!

maggiepip

Time patience and gentleness - giving out to a border collie will never work. Encouragement and positive reinforcement - find a way to block off where she has started to toilet shes just confused right now (they are actually really easy dogs to toilet train) dont force her to do anything - use reward based training. Also give her her own space to retreat to - border collies can get extremely overwhelmed and are very emotionally sensitive and sound sensitive. Give her something to chew - its a form of meditation for their mind and helps calm it down.

We adopted a nervous wreck of a collie (shes about 95% border collie) almost 3 years ago now - she was a cruelty case from the ISPCA - it took a few months for her to become anywhere near normal - we even had to change the way we walked around the house for a while to a more gentle fluid walk(!)-- as, if you made any sudden movement she took off terrified - she was absolutely terrified of everything, she had to be carried in the front door as she was afraid to go into a house (I chose to carry her as treats etc didnt work, and I felt carrying was better than dragging her in) -- if you raised your voice the minutest degree she ran away cowering, if you moved your hand suddenly she was gone. It also took her around 10 months to take to my other half properly (she was terrified of men) but now she is honestly the most affectionate loving funny girl ever!! - she can still be a little nervous in strange surroundings but thats not so bad! All this was achieved by giving her time and being gentle with her and understanding her. Nothing else really. My 2 other balanced dogs helped a lot so the fact you have another placid dog in the house will help lots.

You will get there but you really need to understand them, they can be nervy neurotic dogs at the best of times. Gentleness,time, sensitivity and understanding of the breed will get you far.

You will get there and when you do you will discover what beautiful, funny, intelligent, loyal, quirky, affectionate and loving dogs these border collies are and you will wonder how you ever lived without this breed in your life (thats how we feel anyway!!)

I should also add OP that Mollys (the dog in question!) story was made a little more complicated by the fact that she had an undiagnosed back issue - one which was finally diagnosed by the superb help of a fabulous vet who was recommended to me by DBB (thanks again DBB! - shes still brilliant!) - thats another story.......but the core nervousness solution was time gentleness and patience.

Ophiopogon

Thanks for the fast responses!

The other dog is a rescued collie also who definitely was abused so I know there should be light at the ended of the tunnel. They are getting on ok at first more indifferent than anything else but now there appears to be some traces of playing happening.

They are in the kitchen during the day but the door between the kitchen and the rest of the house is broken so if I go through it she can get it open after me. Like today when I got how home took them both out for a long walk, then when I got back had a shower upstairs, when I came out of the bathroom she'd done a poo right there.

Definitely think I might get a crate. would there be any problems with the other dog walking around while she was in there?

She nervous and all but actually very affectionate more so that she follows me everywhere and seems to need consent reassurance. She gets up anytime I do or if something upsets her she is straight to me. Probably the crate would help with that, although I'm beginning to feel like she would freak out if i tried to close her in.

Basically it's taken me about 10 min to write this message as she has being clawing me for attention every two seconds. We are a fairly quiet house with a good daily routine, the dogs would be on their own during the day but we are on a few acres and also have horses that we'd be out with in the evenings and weekends so exercise is not a problem. I wasn't around for the initial training of the first dog.

I want her to be comfortable and relaxed but at the same time I don't want to spoil her into bad habits. I've only shouted at her once (today) and don't intend on doing it again.

maggiepip

Oh gosh No dont lock her in the crate - she will feel trapped at this stage - that will do more harm than good. Just leave it open for her - throw some treats into it to let her see she can go in - and allow her to know its there for her if she wants it.

Molly used to retreat to an area I made for her behind the bed - I made a corner for her with her dog bed in it and it was shielded by the human bed so she felt safe. Allow her to choose what she want to do with your help and encouragement - dont force her into anything.

zenno

Ophiopogon wrote: »

So I really need some help...I got a dog from the local shelter on Saturday. A female collie (well they said she's a border collie but I really think she's a collie x perhaps with a terrier) approx 4/5 years old. She was dumped at the shelter a few months ago so I've no clue to her previous life.

She's very underweight but otherwise appears healthy. She may have been abused in the past as she cowers a lot esp if you move too fast or make a loud noise.

My problem is how to approach training given her extreme nervousness. Any time I say a stern no she gets upset and so wouldn't be able to see what I'm actually saying no to.

I know it's only been a few days but there are some issues that I really need to get control of, namely the fact that she keeps pooing on the top landing. My housemate believes it's some sort of marking behavior but either way I not sure how to react at this point. I tried praising when she goes outside and not acknowledging it when she goes on the landing but tonight I ended up shouting at her when she did it as we had just come in from a long walk. That again didn't work as she just got even more upset.

As I said I know it's only been a few days and I don't expect instant results, it's just that I'm really worried now that I've bitten off more than I can chew. There is already another dog in the house who is the most chilled out dog, I really want this to work out and I really do not want to increase her anxiety.

I picked up my border collie (male) from the shelter as well a few years ago he's a rescue dog and he was very nervous when we brought him home and would run and hide if you spoke with a deep voice but what i done firstly was cut off that yellow hormone collar they had very tight around his neck and i never seen a dog so happy.

I'd recon you let her get used to her surroundings of this new home she is in and let her investigate the whole house. Now it did take 1 year for my rescue collie to relax and feel comfortable because it seems he went through a bad time but now after 4 years he's well settled in and all that nervousness is gone so just go easy with her on voice commands till she settles in for a while and when you see the difference in her relaxing more then give her some good training.

Some of these rescue dogs have been through some very bad stuff so just be gentle and patient.

zenno

Definitely think I might get a crate. would there be any problems with the other dog walking around while she was in there?

If this is what you plan on doing while this rescue dog is still under extreme anxiety then i would suggest you bring this dog back to the shelter as you will only be making the dogs life more miserable and painful.

How the shelter allowed the transfer of ownership to a person wanting to put the dog in a crate boggles my mind.

What shelter did you receive this dog from ?

DBB

maggiepip wrote: »

Oh gosh No dont lock her in the crate - she will feel trapped at this stage - that will do more harm than good. Just leave it open for her - throw some treats into it to let her see she can go in - and allow her to know its there for her if she wants it.

Molly used to retreat to an area I made for her behind the bed - I made a corner for her with her dog bed in it and it was shielded by the human bed so she felt safe. Allow her to choose what she want to do with your help and encouragement - dont force her into anything.

+1
No need to lock her in the crate, I'd be more inclined to use it as a den in a safe place for her to retreat to. I mentioned using a playpen to curtail her as these act like a giant crate, not nearly as claustrophobic! As for your broken door... maybe buy a baby gate to secure it? At least she can still see and hear you then.
Most rescue dogs will be clingy for a while, so start getting into a habit of standing up, sitting down, standing up, sitting down, standing up, walking towards the door a step, back to the chair and sit down... ad nauseum, so that (a) you can eventually leave the room for short periods, and (b) she'll be so bored with you getting up and sitting down again, making small, imperceptible moves towards the door, that she won't be as worried about you leaving, because this teaches her that although you're leaving, you're also coming back!
Again, think about a Thundershirt or anxiety wrap, and a DAP diffuser, as they can be very helpful in these situations.
But nothing I can say trumps the hands-on, first-hand experience that Maggiepip has posted about... Time frame, lengths gone to, systems put in place for Maggiepip's scared collie are spot on, and should help to give you realistic guidelines for when things start to fall into place.

DBB

zenno wrote: »

If this is what you plan on doing while this rescue dog is still under extreme anxiety then i would suggest you bring this dog back to the shelter as you will only be making the dogs life more miserable and painful.

How the shelter allowed the transfer of ownership to a person wanting to put the dog in a crate boggles my mind.

What shelter did you receive this dog from ?

Steady on there Zenno! :eek:
The proper use of a crate can be a fantastic resource for a scared dog: some love it, others don't but can be gradually brought around to it with positive association. It is a standard piece of kit for treatment of various anxiety disorders, again, used properly, which OP is getting good advice on here already.

westies4ever

zenno wrote: »

If this is what you plan on doing while this rescue dog is still under extreme anxiety then i would suggest you bring this dog back to the shelter as you will only be making the dogs life more miserable and painful.

How the shelter allowed the transfer of ownership to a person wanting to put the dog in a crate boggles my mind.

What shelter did you receive this dog from ?

Big harsh - lot of people swear by crate training. Op is just looking for help, i dont think they're advocating locking the dog up, it's obviously a new concept to them. My rescue dog came with a crate which he used as his den - it was the only place he settled for the first while.

Whispered

zenno wrote: »

How the shelter allowed the transfer of ownership to a person wanting to put the dog in a crate boggles my mind.

Ha try telling my 2 boys that. Both are rescues and both love their crates. Actually one of them has chosen to snooze in the crate this evening instead of in front of the fire (I think it's because he has a bone and wants a bit of peace from his brother).

Crate training has worked wonders in this house anyway, on many different levels.

The OP will have to take it very slowly, but I highly doubt they were planning on getting a crate and leaving the dog in it all day with no prior training.

zenno

Ok there people steady on there. I assumed it was a small crate used just to keep the dog out of the way, i took it up completely wrong my apologies.

I personally never used the crate as i just let him roam around the house on his own to get used to it all. Sorry again didn't mean to sound harsh. I understand the situation now.

Ophiopogon

Well again thanks so much for the advice, we've had no accidents today!

She seems to have an issue with our range in that the sound of it firing up sends her into a panic. I've gone with letting her have access to my bedroom upstairs and leaving the kitchen door open. She's still pacing but it appears to be a little less manic tonight.

I know it's been dealt with but I just want to state that I never meant to imply I would be locking up the dog all day, I was and am just looking for advice on making the transition easier, may in fact help to actually read post before writing some comments.

maggiepip

Thats actually a lot of progress in just 24 hours Ophiopogon! - brilliant:D

I also forgot to mention we used a plug in DAP for a while - I think its already been suggested - and at times during the day (or evening) I would play canine calming music - this link is an example
http://throughadogsear.com/samples/
- neither worked miracles or anything but we did feel they helped.

Whispered

OP How are you getting along now?

Ophiopogon

Whispered wrote: »

OP How are you getting along now?

We are getting on great, she's like a different dog even in just the two weeks. No accidents in the house and the space between the pacing episodes is getting longer. The two dogs are passed out beside me in their beds and a massive run/epic tug of war.

I think we are lucky in the that the existing dog is so chilled out that she helped settled my dog. I've stuck to strict routine with regards to walks and feeding and I think that has helped her know what is happening and when. I believe her eating habits prior to us where mostly scavenging as she kept grabbing her food and bolting/ or only eating a bit and bolting but even this as started to disappear.

With training I've just kept quiet and shown her again and again what I want. She's not allowed upstairs by herself so when she would go up I just kept going up and bringing her down and even in this short time she knows to stay down. I personally think she's a genius.

The more she relaxes the more her personality is coming through and really she's a bit of a nutcase (in a funny way) and incredibly loving. I'm so happy I picked her, I know she was being overlooked in the shelter as she's a bit older and appeared too scared to be friendly, all she needed was some love and care.

DBB

Aw! Feelgood post of the day OP!

:o:o

maggiepip

Oh wow!! thats just lovely lovely lovely:D And only 2 weeks----what a lucky lucky collie that you came along! Do you have a picture of her? Would love to see one:)

Inexile

OP your post reminded me of when I acquired our collie. She was a nervy thing and poo'd and wee'd anywhere, including the other dog beds. Gradually it got better but I do recall playing a sort of "treasure" hunt as I tried to find the source of bad smells on more than one occasion

Any a few years on and I have now have a happy, if not obedient, wonderful dog. I cant add much to what others have advised but would recommend that you do regular grooming sessions with her as it is supposed to increase the bonding between dog and owner. I know my lassie loves it and really enjoys getting towel dried after a walk in the rain. Our collie has been, what I consider, hard work but she taught me alot along the way and she is worth it.

notfromhere

fair play OP ur amazing

missmyler

Great work OP. I had the same with my rescue dog. He hated me the first day and then 2 weeks later would not leave my side.

ShaShaBear

Great work OP, and glad you are one of us lucky people who have discovered their collie isn't all there upstairs

boomshakalaka

This is an amazing result. I'm very proud of dog and owner. Would also like to thank every one who have such accurate and suitable advise. you're all very knowledgable people as I let my mom read this thread. she's a dogpsychologist and agreed with everything!
I think everyone here deserves a pat on the shoulder! Happy thread!