Judges now need to be held accountable for their decisions

100200 shih

Judges in Ireland , do not have to answer to anyone else but there peers.

Case 1

Man raped daughter for over 10 years , plead guilty & gets 12 years , last 9 suspended , that's bad enough. But because the poor fellow is sick , he doesn't have to go to jail for the 3 years yet but is allow to apply the ruling and cost the tax payer more. Only in Ireland

Case 2,

Man get 6 years sentence for not paying €1.6 million tax on garlic , which he is paying back. Courts of appeal suggest that this sentence was to long, yet he is still in jail while they decide what is enough.

Am i missing a point here ? Another crime against a women goes unpunished
A crime in which you don't pay the government , your in jail as quick as .

Victor

100200 shih wrote: »

Judges in Ireland , do not have to answer to anyone else but there peers.

Actually, there is an appeal system, so they are answerable.

For misbehaviour, they are answerable to the Oireachtas.

Hootanany

Victor wrote: »

Actually, there is an appeal system, so they are answerable.

For misbehaviour, they are answerable to the Oireachtas.

We all know what happens there.

abbeyrock

A bit like politicians, some of them have no idea of what is going on. They say they have to follow the law but from what is evident its up to them who goes to jail and who does not. Rape v Garlic smuggling, which is riskier in the long run?

ResearchWill

100200 shih wrote: »

Judges in Ireland , do not have to answer to anyone else but there peers.

Case 1

Man raped daughter for over 10 years , plead guilty & gets 12 years , last 9 suspended , that's bad enough. But because the poor fellow is sick , he doesn't have to go to jail for the 3 years yet but is allow to apply the ruling and cost the tax payer more. Only in Ireland

Case 2,

Man get 6 years sentence for not paying €1.6 million tax on garlic , which he is paying back. Courts of appeal suggest that this sentence was to long, yet he is still in jail while they decide what is enough.

Am i missing a point here ? Another crime against a women goes unpunished
A crime in which you don't pay the government , your in jail as quick as .

I am really getting fed up of the overuse of the "only in Ireland." Any proper democratic country allows appeals, provides legal aid, and has a separation of powers.

They are all there for a reason but let's just throw away all those safe guards and allow judges to be punished when someone thinks they get it wrong, forget the rule of law sure it does not matter.

You think there are problems now just think what Goverenment could do if they could fire judges willy hilly, what they could do if there was no legal aid or poxy bail. There are bad decisions like in any system, but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Grolschevik

Any chance we can sticky the best/most comprehensive/most rationally argued "judges out of touch", "sentencing madness" and "hang 'em high" threads, or put them into the FAQ thread?

Or maybe a megathread?

100200 shih

Well ,
this would not happen in the states or most country i know off. The man pleaded guilty for 10 YEARS of raping his OWN daughter ,
& because he is ill, he walks free from court .

Give me a break , The head nurse of the prison service said that his illness could be taken care of in prison,But no, the Judge sent the man home.

And yes , only in Ireland

coylemj

Be careful what you wish for....

In the US the local (county and state) judges are accountable to the electorate in the sense that they have to seek re-election every so often. This means that they have to raise money to run election campaigns and who are the major donors who contribute to their campaigns? Why, the very same lawyers who appear in front of said judges. This leads to a situation where litigants seek out the lawyers who are in the judge's good books i.e. the big donors get the briefs.

I'll keep the Irish system, thanks. Judges are independent and they're also human but they are not accountable to anyone in relation to their sentencing decisions. Their decisions may be overturned but that's not the same as saying they are accountable which refers to the obligation to explain yourself and take the consequences if you get it wrong.

'Misbehaviour' does not include handing down lenient sentences so judges are not accountable to anyone in relation to sentencing.

ResearchWill

100200 shih wrote: »

Well ,
this would not happen in the states or most country i know off. The man pleaded guilty for 10 YEARS of raping his OWN daughter ,
& because he is ill, he walks free from court .

Give me a break , The head nurse of the prison service said that his illness could be taken care of in prison,But no, the Judge sent the man home.

And yes , only in Ireland

So no other country allows a person out on bail pending the appeal of his prison sentence.

100200 shih

ResearchWill wrote: »

So no other country allows a person out on bail pending the appeal of his prison sentence.

He was not pending an appeal at time of sentencing, he was given leave to appeal , but the nature of the crime, he should of have to go to jail until the appeal hearing.

The guy in the case with garlic, has to stay in jail & his appeal case was today. He has to wait in jail for a decisions.

What risk does the man in the garlic case pose to society, compared to a man raping his daughter for 10 years .

ResearchWill

100200 shih wrote: »

He was not pending an appeal at time of sentencing, he was giving leave to appeal , but the nature of the crime, he should of have to go to jail until the appeal hearing.

The guy in the case with garlic, has to stay in jail & his appeal case was today. He has to wait in jail for a decisions.

What risk does the man in the garlic case pose to society, compared to a man raping his daughter for 10 years .

That is not what I asked, you said only in ireland, I asked is it then correct to say that no other country allows bail in an appeal case such as this. You made that statment I am only asking you to back it up.

I accept that bail is rarely given in this jurisdiction in such cases but like all other democratic countries it is avaivailable if the court thinks its justified.

Pat Mustard

Looking at the original post, I think a more appropriate discussion might be in relation to minimum sentences.

100200 shih

ResearchWill wrote: »

That is not what I asked, you said only in ireland, I asked is it then correct to say that no other country allows bail in an appeal case such as this. You made that statment I am only asking you to back it up.

I accept that bail is rarely given in this jurisdiction in such cases but like all other democratic countries it is avaivailable if the court thinks its justified.

What I said about only in Ireland is my own opinion , so I don't need to " back up what I said "

I am not here to debate what I said , I am on here because I am fed up with the Irish Justice system letting people down , day in , day out . Not just to women but to children & men also

reprazant

Wait, we can say anything we want now but as long as it is just an opinion, we don't need to back it up at all?

Nice. Roll on some sweet school yard debating!

Oh wait, its not a debate, it's just a rant. :mad:

100200 shih

reprazant wrote: »

Wait, we can say anything we want now but as long as it is just an opinion, we don't need to back it up at all?

Nice. Roll on some sweet school yard debating!

Oh wait, its not a debate, it's just a rant. :mad:

As i just said , I am not here to debate what I said,

Lets not get away from the very serious matter at hand , A rapist who pleaded guilty has walk away from court because he is ill, not because of what I have said ,

ResearchWill

100200 shih wrote: »

What I said about only in Ireland is my own opinion , so I don't need to " back up what I said "

I am not here to debate what I said , I am on here because I am fed up with the Irish Justice system letting people down , day in , day out . Not just to women but to children & men also

But you said "Well ,
this would not happen in the states or most country i know off."

If your not here to back up what you say don't be surprised if people think you are spouting popular rubbish with no foundation.

A few facts irish average rape sentences are 9 years 4 months USA about the same UK a little less.

Usually max sentence in USA 15 years same here. Judge Carney has given more life sentences for rape than any other judge all have been reduced to 15 years. Just a few facts but don't let them get in the way of people who won't even do a modicum of research and their baying for the blood of the Irish legal system.

Grolschevik

100200 shih wrote: »

A rapist who pleaded guilty has temporarily walked away from court because of the likelihood of an appeal based on the fact that he is ill

That's as I understand it from only the media reports, which are all we have to go on at the moment.

ResearchWill

100200 shih wrote: »

As i just said , I am not here to debate what I said,

Lets not get away from the very serious matter at hand , A rapist who pleaded guilty has walk away from court because he is ill, not because of what I have said ,

Again a little fact a guilty rapist is on bail pending appeal of his 3 year sentence. It just helps if your going to have an opinion it has a little fact behind it.

100200 shih

ResearchWill wrote: »

But you said "Well ,
this would not happen in the states or most country i know off."

If your not here to back up what you say don't be surprised if people think you are spouting popular rubbish with no foundation. yrs
A few facts irish average rape sentences are 9 years 4 months USA about the same UK a little less.

Usually max sentence in USA 15 years same here. Judge Carney has given more life sentences for rape than any other judge all have been reduced to 15 years. Just a few facts but don't let them get in the way of people who won't even do a modicum of research and their baying for the blood of the Irish legal system.

I was talking about a rapist walking away from court yesterday after pleading guilty & a guy who held tax back , which he is now paying back is still in jail. This is what I am debating , not spouting popular rubbish.

Bull about the average rape sentence been 9.4 years in Ireland. You should get your figures from the rape crisis center or from women center in Ireland ,

100200 shih

ResearchWill wrote: »

Again a little fact a guilty rapist is on bail pending appeal of his 3 year sentence. It just helps if your going to have an opinion it has a little fact behind it.

He wasn't trying to appeal his sentence, the Judge would not send him to jail because of his illness .

He was at his sentence hearing, not an appeal hearing

ResearchWill

100200 shih wrote: »

He wasn't trying to appeal his sentence, the Judge would not send him to jail because of his illness .

He was at his sentence hearing, not an appeal hearing

Yes, and the judge sentenced him to 12 years with 9 suspended. Then the defendant decided to appeal, (I'm not sure any more if the trial judge needs to be asked for leave to appeal) but it is usually requested anyway, in any case he is appealing and he asked for bail pending appeal which the judge granted. So it's very simple he got 3 years he is appealing that, he got bail till the hearing of the appeal. So currently he has a 3 year sentence which maybe increased or reduced on appeal.

Grolschevik

100200 shih wrote: »

He wasn't trying to appeal his sentence, the Judge would not send him to jail because of his illness .

He was at his sentence hearing, not an appeal hearing

Again: A rapist who pleaded guilty has temporarily walked away from court because of the likelihood of an appeal based on the fact that he is ill.

valleyoftheunos

There is a bit of a whiff of the freemen about this thread

Its interesting that two highly unusual and most likely, wrongly decided sentences have passed through the courts one after the other. In my opinion that doesn't mean the system is wrong even if the sentences were.

There are two things that must be considered when sentencing someone, 1) the severity of the offence committed and 2) the circumstances of the person convicted. People often lose sight of the 2nd element and just how important it is. It has been part of sentencing for well over a hundred years when it was realised that uniformity of sentencing was leading to terrible injustices.

Those supporting the "lock 'em all up and hang 'em all high" should not loose sight of the fact that that ideology was abandoned by the Victorians and the Edwardians as being too draconian and causing wider problems. Has Carney J placed too much emphasis on the 2nd element in his sentencing yesterday? I think he has, will this rapist serve a period in jail? I think almost certainly but its hard to understand why he was released on bail.

Being released on bail after being convicted of a crime is so unusual that none of the various lawyers on the radio this morning could recall an occasion where it had happened before.

McCrack

100200 shih wrote: »

He wasn't trying to appeal his sentence, the Judge would not send him to jail because of his illness .

He was at his sentence hearing, not an appeal hearing

If your going to spout opinions on Irish sentencing you should begin to understand it and the processes behind it. There is a lot of legislation, publications and caselaw that you will have to read I'm afraid to fully appreciate it and the reasons behind sentencing. People outside the law will not normally be aware and reported cases in newspapers appear bizare.

No two cases are the same and no two defendants are the same.

Zambia

There is also the consideration of further re-offending in the rapist case that seems remote. Lets just hope he serves the three years he did get.

Predalien

ResearchWill wrote: »

A few facts irish average rape sentences are 9 years 4 months USA about the same UK a little less.

Can I ask where these figures are sourced from?

ResearchWill

Predalien wrote: »

Can I ask where these figures are sourced from?

UK figures http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/may/26/rape-sentence-average-eight-years-justice-figures

US

While the average sentence of convicted rapists released from State prisons has remained stable at about 10 years, the average time served has increased from about 3 years to about 5 years; for those released after serving time for sexual assault, the sentence has been a stable 6 years, and the average time served grew about 6 months to just under 3 years.


And

Jury Trial Bench Trial Guilty Plea
Prison Sentence 89% 71% 63%
Average Sentence 292 Months 173 Months 139 Months

From here

http://www.mincava.umn.edu/documents/sexoff/sexoff.html

Here http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp.pdf page 7

Predalien

Thanks, I seem to have found the Irish source was a study which is nearly a decade old. There's also the question for statistical purposes as to whether that average is for the sentence or the actual custodial sentence. For example in relation to yesterday would the sentence be above the average as it was technically a 12 year sentence, or below the average as 9 years was suspended. It's also important to point out automatic remission in Ireland of a quarter of any custodial sentence. In the UK a judge directs the minimum amount that must be served. A more accurate gauge would be time actually served.

If yesterday's convict actually goes to jail, he will serve 2 years and 3 months, for raping his daughter repeatedly over a period of ten years. That is not in my opinion a sentence that reflects the seriousness of the crime.

ResearchWill

Predalien wrote: »

Thanks, I seem to have found the Irish source was a study which is nearly a decade old. There's also the question for statistical purposes as to whether that average is for the sentence or the actual custodial sentence. For example in relation to yesterday would the sentence be above the average as it was technically a 12 year sentence, or below the average as 9 years was suspended. It's also important to point out automatic remission in Ireland of a quarter of any custodial sentence. In the UK a judge directs the minimum amount that must be served. A more accurate gauge would be time actually served.

If yesterday's convict actually goes to jail, he will serve 2 years and 3 months, for raping his daughter repeatedly over a period of ten years. That is not in my opinion a sentence that reflects the seriousness of the crime.

I agree the more accurate is time served, while the US info is old it does have such info. I was surprised at the number of guilty verdicts after a jury trial who got no prison time 11%.

Just to be clear my point is that Ireland for sentencing seems to be similar to other jurisdictions.

The time served if the 3 years is upheld will yes be about 2 years. In my opinion that seems too little. But I am willing to wait for the CCA to decide, if I'm free for the hearing ill try and go in and see it.

usernamegoes

This particular judge has had his sentences reduced on appeal before in similar circumstances. He asked the DPP for a suggested sentence, which they refused to offer.

He was released on bail because the judge has a belief that the appeal court is likely to reduce the sentence.

Not really this judge's fault.

Carawaystick

usernamegoes wrote: »

This particular judge has had his sentences reduced on appeal before in similar circumstances. He asked the DPP for a suggested sentence, which they refused to offer.

He was released on bail because the judge has a belief that the appeal court is likely to reduce the sentence.

Not really this judge's fault.

Does Paul Carney think the sentence would be reduced to less than the time it would take for the appeal to be heard?

There were 16 sample charges? That's 9 months per rape

I wonder if a judge got raped or abused would nine months satisfy them?