Pursuing Nursing Career

Trisham35

Would I be mad to pursue a career in Nursing? I have 3 children and at 38 this would be a big career change for me. I worry when I hear of how Nurses are been treated by the HSE. I think its a disgrace to expect someone to complete a 4 year degree course (with the 4th year spent in non-paid placement) and to offer only €22,000 salary!! It is one thing that would definitely make me think twice about going down this path. Can anyone recommend any other career path in the Health Sector that would have better payment prospects?

chanste

Could be tough particularly with 3 kids. My wife is studying midwifery and knows women who would be around your age and are managing but it is obviously more difficult. From what I've seen on the wards I think (and stand open to correction on this) that most nurses enjoy their jobs and find it very rewarding, unfortunately the health service is in **** at the moment and there aren't many signs of that changing and that applies to all health service jobs.

I've always advised people not to let age be a factor in going back though, too many years will pass with you wondering if you should have tried it. Also remember that there are other countries/options which open up after a nursing degree (PHN, Lecturing, and about a million other specialised things).

Trisham35

Thanks Chanste, I'm meeting an old school colleague tomorrow who went back to do Psych Nursing a few years back and even though she wasn't as old as me, she had 3 children also. I've a few factors to take into consideration but with the CAO date closing soon, I've to make up my mind pretty soon - probably not a bad thing as I could go on forever trying to make a decision. Just one more question and you may not be sure of this but when you talk about other options such as PHN, Lecturing etc - do you mean that I could go down this path once qualifying or would I need to work for a certain amount of years in a hospital before doing a postgrade?

chanste

Might be a good idea to stick in an application before the deadline. You can always turn down the offer if you don't want it later.

I think in some cases you can go straight on to do more, but it would be easier with a few years experience behind you - even if only 1 or 2 years such as doing a masters or Phd with a view to lecturing. In some cases I think it is a pre-requisite though that you have 2 or 3 years experience such as PHN or drug prescribing courses.

The idea of being in college that long when you are a mature student may put you off, but I really think people see all that differently once your on a course. I know on my course, which I started at 29 all worries disappeared about age immediately, my wife started midwifery at 30 and absolutely loves it - again she wonders why age would have ever been a factor.

Also (and I realise I'm making a big issue of age here, but it really is a concern I remember having) if you are worried about how long you will be in college with the extra courses and so on, try not to think of it as you will be doing something really interesting in 4 years, you'll be doing something interesting from the 1st day back in college.

Maura74

Trisham35 wrote: »

Would I be mad to pursue a career in Nursing? I have 3 children and at 38 this would be a big career change for me. I worry when I hear of how Nurses are been treated by the HSE. I think its a disgrace to expect someone to complete a 4 year degree course (with the 4th year spent in non-paid placement) and to offer only €22,000 salary!! It is one thing that would definitely make me think twice about going down this path. Can anyone recommend any other career path in the Health Sector that would have better payment prospects?

I was always under the impression that nursing was vocation as teaching. I know people needs to earn a living and with 3 children I do not think being in the caring profession is the best option for you as salary would be the deciding factor and not caring for sick people.

Xeyn

Maura74 wrote: »

I was always under the impression that nursing was vocation as teaching. I know people needs to earn a living and with 3 children I do not think being in the caring profession is the best option for you as salary would be the deciding factor and not caring for sick people.

If you are going to struggle financially it doesn't matter what your main motivation is. If they said doctors or nurses would not be paid at all you'd see thousands upon thousands of extremely caring individuals leave the health sector. It's a little naive to think that salary shouldn't be a factor.

OP - I'd like to reiterate what others have said. If you have a genuine interest in nursing and think this might be a career you would enjoy age should not be a factor.

Trisham35

Sorry Maura but I think people need to get over the whole idea of Nursing as a Vocation. We are not living in Florence Nightengale times!! It is now a degree course and the sooner people see it as an actual Profession, the sooner Nurses will be treated with the same respect as the likes of Physios, Doctors or the likes. As it is graduates from these other Medical Fields start on a higher salary than Nurses - can you imagine the uproar if they were to be told they would be on just over €10/hr after graduating from college! I don't think vocation comes into it when people are trying to make ends meet!

ThatDrGuy

To be fair new interns start on 29,000 which after all the fees ( malpractice medical council training etc) isn't wildly different from 26,000 new
nurses start on (22,000 plus 4,000 allowances). Physios cant get a job anywhere in the country at the moment http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/david-mcwilliams-online-revolution-threatens-to-destroy-our-failing-universities-3362475.html as david mc williams describes - 30 out of 114 working for free and only 1 out of 114 with paid employment. Im not trying to justify cut rate nursing salaries ( its disgusting, worse in the context of the pay of the golden circle at the top of our country) but its no rose garden anywhere else either.

WildRosie

Maura74 wrote: »

I was always under the impression that nursing was vocation as teaching. I know people needs to earn a living and with 3 children I do not think being in the caring profession is the best option for you as salary would be the deciding factor and not caring for sick people.

Nursing is a vocation, in that nurses feel a calling to do the job that they do, just like many other professions, but they're not volunteers and paying a salary commensurate with the education and skills that modern nurses have does not in any way lessen that. In 2013, graduate nurses are all ages, male and female, with different backgrounds and life experiences, not just 18 and 19-year old girls or nuns.

If, for example, the OP decided she wanted to study midwifery, IMO, she would be at an immediate advantage on day 1 - she's had three kids. That's a lot of experience to bring and one that her school leaver classmates wouldn't have. Therefore, she should not be put off a career she may be very well suited to, and bring a lot to, on account of her having a family to support.

OP you should definitely apply. You have months to decide if you want to take up an offer and applying doesn't commit you to anything. I have a friend who's pregnant with her third and she's taking up an offer for next September. It can be done. And hopefully by the time you would graduate, things will have improved.

rambojon

im one who currently works as mental health nurse....and to be totally honest it a job first and foremost and a devotion second. The way these new nurses are treated begining on 22,000 after four yrs in degree course is a total disgrace and shows you exactly where the powers that be regard nursing as a PROFESSION.
Many of my close colleagues are great nurses in their own right however im seeing many of them becomming totally frustrated wth the job mainly due to this thing of cutting the service by the powers that be at every possible oppertunity and its getting out of hand. Wages slashed at every oppertunity cut backs on staffing levels and now the final straw re-opening croke park to get even MORE FOR LESS. Speak to any good nurse worth their salt and they will tell very quick the pressure their under.
Yes the work can be very rewarding but im my opinion morale among staff was never as low due mainly the being snowed under with ever increasing workloads.
Unions are currently in talks on care assistants replacing nursing posts/roles(cuts) in many units where i work .. six months training with very little responsibility and almost similar wages to starting nurse.. no
brainer for me..
Good luck to you if you decide to go ahead with your career but one bit of advice.. go and speak to as many nurses currently in the service as you can and find out their opinions .. nursing is far from what it used to be a few years ago.. and in my opinion is in for very rough seas in the near future... oh yeah i almost forgot... im should be grateful ive a job.

Dozen Wicked Words

I don't have a degree and I personally don't really care if Nursing is called a profession or not. I don't consider it a vocation either. It's a job, my main concern would be doing my best for my patients until I can get the fuxk out of the place until the next shift. The job now is not one I would recommend to anyone, people show nurses less respect now than ever and calling it a profession won't make a blind bit of difference. It's hard physically, mentally and emotionally if you let it get to you with horrible hours doing horrible things. Hospitals and health services increasingly run by horrible people with no interest in patient or staff welfare.

Good luck if you do decide to go ahead, most nurses are still sound, funny people who will be supportive of you when you are training, it's just the job these days really sucks.

/been in the job too long rant.

Edit: I, too, should be grateful I have a job.

Maura74

Hospital or careless home places would be last place on earth I would want to go into if I was unable to look after myself. However, I would consider it, if it was run by volunteers as you would know then that they were there not just for the money, but to help people young disabled and elderly people in need.

The links below are related to nursing and they do not tell a good story at all about the caring profession. This is only some as I would not be able to post all the links Google on hear.

It is of course the manages of these hospital and care places are to blame, for not employing enough staff, but what about the professionals that are turning a blind eye to what they see is happening day in day out therefore in my eyes they are just as bad for not doing something about it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4701921.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4701651.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8877058/NHS-patients-their-stories.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2177013/NHS-scandal-Three-female-hospital-carers-arrested-department-shut-cruel-abuse-geriatric-patients.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/oct/08/half-hospitals-not-feeding-elderly

http://voices.yahoo.com/neglect-silent-abuse-nursing-homes-1632861.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046676/Hospital-care-Patients-hungry-elderly-left-hours-drink.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018918/Doctors-nurses-blow-whistle-colleagues-face-investigation.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2133673/BBC-One-Panorama-Undercover--Elderly-Care-Ash-Court-residents-daughter-uncovers-harrowing-abuse.html

http://article.wn.com/view/2012/10/26/Hospital_Abuse_Scandal_Former_Carers_Jailed/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/apr/23/hidden-footage-elderly-abuse-bbc-documentary

http://article.wn.com/view/2011/06/20/Winterbourne_View_hospital_to_close_after_Panorama_abuse_all/

Maura74

Trisham35 wrote: »

Sorry Maura but I think people need to get over the whole idea of Nursing as a Vocation. We are not living in Florence Nightengale times!! It is now a degree course and the sooner people see it as an actual Profession, the sooner Nurses will be treated with the same respect as the likes of Physios, Doctors or the likes. As it is graduates from these other Medical Fields start on a higher salary than Nurses - can you imagine the uproar if they were to be told they would be on just over €10/hr after graduating from college! I don't think vocation comes into it when people are trying to make ends meet!

Thrisham, I do a little part time job in retail and am working with young graduates that are on less than the living wage for London (£8.30 per hr). Some of them are saying that they will try and progress in the job they doing because they want to build up a CV, as it would be too difficult to get into the NHS with their degree. No one nowadays leave uni with a degree and walks into a job with a high salary with no practical experience.

Xeyn

Maura74 wrote: »

Hospital or careless home places would be last place on earth I would want to go into if I was unable to look after myself. However, I would consider it, if it was run by volunteers as you would know then that they were there not just for the money, but to help people young disabled and elderly people in need.

The links below are related to nursing and they do not tell a good story at all about the caring profession. This is only some as I would not be able to post all the links Google on hear.

It is of course the manages of these hospital and care places are to blame, for not employing enough staff, but what about the professionals that are turning a blind eye to what they see is happening day in day out therefore in my eyes they are just as bad for not doing something about it.

You are of course entitled to your opinion but to suggest that they are turning a blind eye without any such evidence is outrageous.
All you have to do is look at the current furore over doctors working conditions to know that no matter how much you care or complain, managers, ceo's and the hse simply do not care by and large. There has been concerns for over a decade, if European court action threatened and still they have done absolutely nothing.

Of course there are bad eggs in every profession but taken from someone who actually deals with nurses every single day and has worked in hospitals around the country, the majority of nurses are diligent and caring. If you actually knew the type of jobs nurses had to do daily, you would know there are far easier ways to make their salary.

Xeyn

Maura74 wrote: »

Thrisham, I do a little part time job in retail and am working with young graduates that are on less than the living wage for London (£8.30 per hr). Some of them are saying that they will try and progress in the job they doing because they want to build up a CV, as it would be too difficult to get into the NHS with their degree. No one nowadays leave uni with a degree and walks into a job with a high salary with no practical experience.

Not true at all.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9441915/Graduate-jobs-top-10-starting-salaries.html?image=2

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9415613/Student-jobs-Top-10-degree-subjects-for-getting-a-job.html

Maura74

Xeyn wrote: »

You are of course entitled to your opinion but to suggest that they are turning a blind eye without any such evidence is outrageous.
All you have to do is look at the current furore over doctors working conditions to know that no matter how much you care or complain, managers, ceo's and the hse simply do not care by and large. There has been concerns for over a decade, if European court action threatened and still they have done absolutely nothing.

Of course there are bad eggs in every profession but taken from someone who actually deals with nurses every single day and has worked in hospitals around the country, the majority of nurses are diligent and caring. If you actually knew the type of jobs nurses had to do daily, you would know there are far easier ways to make their salary.

I am well aware of the higher echelons such as CEO's and some HSE staff outrageous salaries for what they do and should be reduced forthwith. These people cannot lose they if they are exposed for not doing their jobs, they are still rewarded if they have to leave their jobs and perhaps get their pensions they are are in a win, win situation.

There is a Whistleblowing policy protection in Ireland for professionals, but is not used in case they lose their jobs, like what happened with that wonderful nurse that exposed the bad care in the hospital that she worked in, as temporary/bank nurse. However there was such uproar by the public after the brave things that nurse did for the public to see the bad practices that's happening in hospitals this was exposed due to her when she recorded patients in pain and was shown by bbc panorama program. Due to the public reaction to what had happened she was taken back and give a much more responsible position.

I have experience of bad nurse care with my own mother in hospital in 90's and took it up with administration of the hospital but it is useless apologizing when the patients has died. The nurses 4 of them were in a group together discussing their nights outs while my mother was being neglected. I had to go and asked for a drink of water for her, but it looks like it is still going on in hospitals.

It was revealed when a check was done on night staff around 3am, in care homes, which revealed that the nurses 2 of them has their own room and bedding and before they turned down for the night they made sure that their patients emergency bell was put out of reach of their patients in order for them not to be disturbed while they were sleeping!!

I bet this still goes on and no checks at during the night by the HSE on night staff in hospitals and care homes places.

Of course it is not all the staff if it was it would have been pick up and would not let go on but when it happens it should be stopped immediately. I am also are that professionals gets desensitized due to seeing patients day in, day out and one is saying that it is an easy profession to be in.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1261457/Dying-hospital-patient-phoned-switchboard-begging-drink-nurses-said-No.html



http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/doctors-basic-errors-are-killing-1000-patients-a-month-7939674.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2172642/Kane-Gorny-Coroner-blames-incompetence-NHS-staff-patient-dies-dehydration.html

Maura74

Xeyn wrote: »

Not true at all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9441915/Graduate-jobs-top-10-starting-salaries.html?image=2

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9415613/Student-jobs-Top-10-degree-subjects-for-getting-a-job.html

Of course it is true. There are lots of people in the store with good degrees and working in menial jobs. They have to work in the UK now as they will not get any benefits. My colleague has a good degree in psychology. I am retired and wanted to keep working as long as possible to stay alive. My colleague will probably get a good salary when she move up the ladder int he store, but not when you first start in these big PLC retail stores that are doing very a bad now due to the internet sale.

However, if she knew someone in her chosen profession she would have no problem getting the chosen job through the 'old boy network', so speak.

Xeyn

Maura74 wrote: »

Of course it is not all the staff if it was it would have been pick up and would not let go on but when it happens it should be stopped immediately. I am also are that professionals gets desensitized due to seeing patients day in, day out and one is saying that it is an easy profession to be in.

Of course you are right - all errors should be seen as an area to improve on. However you seem to suggest that poor treatment is the norm and not the exception which is simply not true. The media will only pick up on sensational negative stories, they won't report an excellent nursing that goes on day after day because its not newsworthy.
Nurses in this country do a tremendous job for patient care with all their limitations, and your attitude does them a unjust disservice.

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience and its unfortunate that you felt it useless complaining. These sort of things need to be stamped out as much as humanly possible. Desensitisation is an inevitability in the health profession but its not an excuse.

As for your anecdotal evidence that there are people working menial jobs because they can't get jobs in Ireland- that's true the world over especially in a recession. However that does not make working for less than the going rate ok. By that rationale we should all be happy with the lowest common denominator. As shown in my previous post, in the uk nurses are not guaranteed a job and not the most likely to walk into a job after qualification. There are plenty of people out there with degrees with better prospects post degree.

It's very difficult to have an objective view on a subject when something personal has affected you and I understand that. The health sector needs a kick up the backside and I'm sure that's something we can both agree on.

WildRosie

Maura74, I am finding your arguments difficult to follow so I will summarise my understanding here and perhaps you can correct me I have misunderstood.

• It is not possible to provide proper nursing care if one is paid to provide that care;
• Nurses would provide better care if they were volunteers;
• Because nurses are paid to do their job, they care more about their salary and not enough about their patients and consequently do not do their job properly and in some cases allow their patients to suffer/die or sit by while their colleagues do so.

All of your evidence relates to the UK, a much larger country than Ireland. There were 410,000 nurses working in the public service in England alone in 2011 as against 37,000 nurses in Ireland in 2009. With that many people, you're going to have a few bad apples. But what about all the excellent nursing that goes on evey single day? The media, particularly the Daily Fail, are only going to pick up on the bad stories, sure there's no fun writing about the public servants that go above and beyond every day.

I'm very sorry that you had a bad experience. But you are wrong if you think that is the norm - it's not. I don't think anyone goes into nursing for the salary, but it's ridiculous to say that nurses shouldn't be paid a living wage and that it would be preferable for them to work for free. At that rate we'd have to have the guards, fire service, doctors, teachers, defence forces, council workers etc all working for free. Sounds a bit like Communism, no? Otherwise, I don't see how you're going to find 30,000+ qualified nurses to work for free?

Finally, I'm not sure of the relevance of the psychology grad working in a shop or the old boy network. If she's looking for work in NHS, surely the usual canvassing will disqualify clause will help her out there.

Maura74

There are also a few good apples in nursing as well, see the video link below.

My response was in response to Trisham35 post and I do not recall advocating that nurses should work for free. However, I do recall saying that I would be happier to be looked after by someone that did it on a volunteer basis than someone that was being paid to it in a hospital or a care home place also Trisham35 posted that we were not in the Florence Nightengale times.

I was also responding to the remark from the same poster regarding £10 per hour would be nonsense to work for after graduating from Uni. You cannot expect today to leave Uni and walk into your chosen profession. Perhaps you could do that before the recession but not since then.

I certainly do not believe that people should work for less than the living wage regardless of what job they do.

Yes, the links I posted related to the UK and I am living in UK, but my experience was in Ireland where my mother was in hospital. Also I have experience of care home places in Ireland and I would rather be shot then go into one of these places and pay them around 60k a year for little or no care whatsoever.
I understand that anyone can set up a care home all they need is no criminal record and they can do it, but they need to employ a register nurse and that is all that was needed to set up one, I am sure someone will tell me if that is different. As for carers it is much like the UK. However the UK is more open about the abuse that goes on in some of them, unlike Ireland.

UK 2020 think tank are now saying that they are going to make it mandatory for family members to look after love ones when they have to go into hospital. This is to make sure that they are taken to the toilet and wash and their basic needs look after as well having their meals. This will not go down too well with employers as when you attend jury service you are paid for doing this service, but employer do the same for employees when caring for family in hospital.

I understand that this practice is common in some countries, but not the UK or Ireland as they paid taxes for doing this service, or will the government give us back some of our taxes for doing this service for the NHS or HSE.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/373680/Families-told-to-nurse-patients

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2269001/Patients-families-told-help-nurses-feed-wash-hospitals-controversial-report-pressures-NHS.html

https://www.itv.com/itvplayer/nursing-the-nation

sam34

Maura and others, please stop dragging this thread off-topic. take it to pm if ye want to continue this discussion.

cuckoo

/back on topic

I'm studying general nursing, mature student and a career change.

the money isn't going to make me wealthy once qualified, and the hours on placement are long - but i'm really enjoying it and have no regrets. i've no kids, lots of the mature students on my course do and family/friend support is important for them (eg placement can be 3 days a week, on duty 7.30am to 8.30pm). But, depending on their partner's work hours the long shifts can be v convenient to some classmates regarding child care.

I like the interaction with patients, I like the physical movement throughout the day and I like the application of scientific/pharm theory. In a previous career I had a work mobile phone and international customers across all the time zones - I never really felt like i was off the clock, and if i took holiday time there would be a literal mountain of work waiting for me on my desk. Nursing's shift patterns and style of work suit me better.

But, it is less money than i could earn elsewhere. And I found the level of abuse from a small minority of patients and their families an eye opener - in any job I'd have previously that would never have happened. I'm not an innocent snowflake - I've worked previously in warehouses as a holiday job, but the degrading insults and physical threats that healthcare staff have to endure was a bit shocking to me.

This thread and other recent ones like it on boards exemplify a lot of the poor view people hold of nurses. I don't expect to be revered as a Nightingale-esque saint, but I also didn't expect the constant 'this one time, a nurse was BAD and now I assume you're all lazy/incompetent/in it for the money/looking for doctor husbands/silly gossiping girls'.

The vast majority of patients and their families are lovely to be around. But, going into it slightly older is very different than coming straight from the leaving cert - not because of the work, not because I'm a student again, not because I'm being directed by staff nurses younger than me - but because of the assumptions people make about me that they never did before.

Trisham35, there's a lot of discussion on the Rollercoaster message boards specific to mature students with kids doing nursing/midwifery, so you might get the parent's perspective there too.

Trisham35

Thank-you for your words of advise Cuckoo, they are much appreciated. I will not be going into this with a blind eye, as I started Nurse Training way back in 1992 so I have some experience of what it is like to work in a busy hospital. Its amazing how things have changed when you say you have experienced abuse from relatives of patients. I would never have encountered that infact, it was the opposite but I get a feeling that the general public have somewhat changed in their admiration of nurses and are becoming increasingly frustrated with our Health Service in this country (and who could blame them)?

I have filled out the CAO with Psychiatric Nursing been my 1st choice and General my 2nd. Can you tell me how you found the written assessment? Would it be worth doing the 1 day course to help you with it (its expensive at €150)! Also where is this Rollercoaster message boards that you mentioned?

cuckoo

Trisham35 wrote: »

I get a feeling that the general public have somewhat changed in their admiration of nurses and are becoming increasingly frustrated with our Health Service in this country (and who could blame them)?

Yes, lots of that, people are upset. I understand those people. I'd probably be the same in their position. And while they might have a rant or a rage, they calm down, and if I were in their position I'd be upset too.

It's the small number of wilfully unpleasant people that I dread, and talking with staff close to retirement they've commented that it wasn't that bad before. It crosses all walks of life, with and without addictions, with and without wealth. If you've worked in hospitals before this probably wouldn't be as surprising for you.

The written exam has changed since I did it, I think there's a new section of questions with scenarios. Rollercoaster info here:

http://www.rollercoaster.ie/Discussions/tabid/119/ForumGroup/1466/ForumView/1/Default.aspx

Lots of discussion of the prep courses on the old threads there from previous years.

Reading back on my post I sound a bit negative - I do like nursing and the course.