Respiratory Cardiac Arrest Ironman south Africa 70.3

bryangiggsy

Status Update
By Ironman Europe
The IRONMAN family mourns the death of two athletes who suffered from respiratory cardiac arrest during today's IRONMAN 70.3 South Africa. Our prayers are with them and we ask their families to accept our most heartfelt sympathies for their loss. This is a sad day for us who bring so much dedication to this wonderful sport.

May the rest in peace. (To us your "like" means: We stand united and mourn their loss.)

IRONMAN Europe & South Africa Team

Anyone ever experienced respiratory distress in the swim start of a triathlon or Ironman before? If you literally cant breathe,cant suck in air at all (your lungs stop functioning) and you feel a tight vice grips around your chest. Stop sit up and try to restore your breathing..even if it means getting battered for a few secs. Do not try and swim through it.

Boards medical disclaimer: Not trying to give or receive medical advice

tunney

http://beyondt2.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/IronmanSouthAfrica/files/2012/01/Ironman-South-Africa-Swim-Start-via-Algoa-FM-on-Flickr.jpg

Running swim start. A reason that are contra-indicated.

tunney

I gather that if you start to suffer respiratory cardiac arrest you'd pretty much dead whether you push on or not. Plus in adults its typically caused as a result of a heart attack.

I think when you have so many competitors in races as WTC and particularly 70.30 where people are more likely to be under prepared its probably there will be deaths.

Anyone know the nationalities of the fatalities?

bryangiggsy

tunney wrote: »

I gather that if you start to suffer respiratory cardiac arrest you'd pretty much dead whether you push on or not. Plus in adults its typically caused as a result of a heart attack.

I think when you have so many competitors in races as WTC and particularly 70.30 where people are more likely to be under prepared its probably there will be deaths.

Anyone know the nationalities of the fatalities?

Wud imagine if you suffer from respiratory distress unless you can get your beathing back the cardiac arrest will follow. Beach or water start if you caught up with slower people in fron with no way around it can get quite intense. Last yr i suffered from what i think was a mild case of respiratory distress at the start.(u may laugh but until now i did not know what it was)..got bokxed in and was going nowhere and could not catch a breath ata ll..then i got a massive vice grips feeling around the chest...with still no breath coming in ..i sat up and eventually caught my breath....and got going again....was scary at the time and had never happened in any of the dozens of tris i had done previously. From now on im starting at the front

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Wud imagine if you suffer from respiratory distress unless you can get your beathing back the cardiac arrest will follow. Beach or water start if you caught up with slower people in fron with no way around it can get quite intense. Last yr i suffered from what i think was a mild case of respiratory distress at the start.(u may laugh but until now i did not know what it was)..got bokxed in and was going nowhere and could not catch a breath ata ll..then i got a massive vice grips feeling around the chest...with still no breath coming in ..i sat up and eventually caught my breath....and got going again....was scary at the time and had never happened in any of the dozens of tris i had done previously. From now on im starting at the front

I'm not intending in any way to diminish the sensations you had. I've had similar on one or two occasions and it is horrific. I'd venture a guess that its not uncommon in the rough and tumble open water during manic starts. But its a panic attack IMHO.

bryangiggsy

tunney wrote: »

I'm not intending in any way to diminish the sensations you had. I've had similar on one or two occasions and it is horrific. I'd venture a guess that its not uncommon in the rough and tumble open water during manic starts. But its a panic attack IMHO.

U could be right Dave. But i ain't going to test the theory if it ever happens again.

bryangiggsy

Would like to know more about what happened in south Africa today. Is there a case for defibs at all major triathlons?

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Would like to know more about what happened in south Africa today. Is there a case for defibs at all major triathlons?

Heart attacks happen. Not being callous but they do, throw in shock from cold water and beach starts and it happens. Plus alot of "long course athletes" probably aren't all that fit and really shouldn't have toed the line.

As for defibs - I'd imagine that they are there but by the time
(a) they are seen in distress
(b) gotten to
(c) pulled out of water
(d) taken to shore
(e) taken out of wet suits

probably too late.

Oryx

I dont know if this was mass start but even in a big wave start I often think that noone in trouble has any hope of being spotted in time to save them.

Two in one race though... Is this a reflection on the race or the athletes? Tunney you mention both are factors, but can it be prevented?

MrCreosote

Cardiorespiratory arrest is the end point, it doesn't say anything about the actual cause of death. Every death ends in cardiorespiratory arrest. Seems both happened in the water so it could be any number of things. Two in one event- most likely a coincidence, although I'm sure they'll check it out.

It's a terrible outcome of course, but even the best preparation in the world can't eliminate the risk.

peter kern

Swim times of pros where very slow so it could be an indication of choppy water, but overall we see more and more people doing a half as their first triathlon, so consequently less experienced athletes....

I think one good thing to do is what Athy does and have a swim the week before which gives people an idea what they are doing.
It might be a good idea to have those swims the night before a race after registration when possible.

I think one of the problems is that a lot of races dont allow a warm ups in the water before the race
Sometimes the start gets delayed by 10 min when people are already in the water and swimmers get very cold. so it would be better to allow them to swim rather than holding the people behind the start line where they get cold.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

Swim times of pros where very slow so it could be an indication of choppy water, but overall we see more and more people doing a half as their first triathlon, so consequently less experienced athletes....

I know I would have been massively underprepared for my first OW triathlon where it not for Ciaran Cassidy ensuring I had my panic attack in the relative safety of Grand Canal Dock with him and his friends

peter kern wrote: »

I think one of the problems is that a lot of races dont allow a warm ups in the water before the race
Sometimes the start gets delayed by 10 min when people are already in the water and swimmers get very cold. so it would be better to allow them to swim rather than holding the people behind the start line where they get cold.

Agreed the lack of a warm up has been indicated as a possible factor.

BennyMul

as awful as this is,
a static on the fatalities for those training for the event would be interesting, if xx passed away on the day of the event due to a lack of warm-up or excretion then you would only assume a greater number during the training. (I fully understand this would be next to impossible to prove or calculate)

peter kern

BennyMul wrote: »

as awful as this is,
a static on the fatalities for those training for the event would be interesting, if xx passed away on the day of the event due to a lack of warm-up or excretion then you would only assume a greater number during the training. (I fully understand this would be next to impossible to prove or calculate)

I dodnt know those statistics, but I would see it this way you hardly ever see people so wound up in training than before a race and in training those with issues would prob stop earlier. and few people go flat out in training in the first 30 seconds.

another thing which is total specualtion but the death rate seems to go up since coffein shots and drinks with Taurin are getting more popular. I did this once and my hr was through the roof after I had one of those energy drinks before a race.( I dont drink coffee)

race stress + no proper warm up ( especially many people hardly ever swim in a wetsuit and dont get used to the restriction a wetsuit can cause) + maybe taurin or serious coffeine stimulants +plus cold water and many people around + not being sufficiently fit,can causes a lot of stress which may enhance any issue you arelady have.

Usat had a good statistic on fatal injurues in Usat santioned races last year around october.

FJacques

Lads, it's summer in South Africa right now. I've been a competitive swimmer and do triathlon just for fun now. I blame using a wetsuit in too hot conditions. The water was over 25 degrees. Beaming sun at around 27C and a black coloured wetsuit holding onto the heat. The main reason why people hold onto the wetsuit is to limit their lack of technique (boyance of legs). Ironman should ban using wetsuits above 22/23.
Few years ago an elite 10km-openwater-swimmer died in Dubai doing a worldcup race. Was he unfit, no. Did he have cardiovascular problems, no. Sunny day and 30C water; not a bother.

tunney

FJacques wrote: »

Lads, it's summer in South Africa right now. I've been a competitive swimmer and do triathlon just for fun now. I blame using a wetsuit in too hot conditions. The water was over 25 degrees. Beaming sun at around 27C and a black coloured wetsuit holding onto the heat. The main reason why people hold onto the wetsuit is to limit their lack of technique (boyance of legs). Ironman should ban using wetsuits above 22/23.
Few years ago an elite 10km-openwater-swimmer died in Dubai doing a worldcup race. Was he unfit, no. Did he have cardiovascular problems, no. Sunny day and 30C water; not a bother.

Find that hard to believe. Race rules prohibit wetsuits over 24 degrees

tunney

tunney wrote: »

Find that hard to believe. IMAT and IMDE Race rules prohibit wetsuits over 24 degrees

I take this back. e the lower numbers. Appears IMSA is 28.8

I've swam in high 24s in a suit. Not nice.

First time I heard this link suggested though!

sconhome

Wasnt it similar in the death of the fellow in New York a couple of years ago?

I believe high temps, hanging around before the start (held in the water ? ), dehydration were all blamed as possible factors.

peter kern

FJacques wrote: »

Lads, it's summer in South Africa right now. I've been a competitive swimmer and do triathlon just for fun now. I blame using a wetsuit in too hot conditions. The water was over 25 degrees. Beaming sun at around 27C and a black coloured wetsuit holding onto the heat. The main reason why people hold onto the wetsuit is to limit their lack of technique (boyance of legs). Ironman should ban using wetsuits above 22/23.
Few years ago an elite 10km-openwater-swimmer died in Dubai doing a worldcup race. Was he unfit, no. Did he have cardiovascular problems, no. Sunny day and 30C water; not a bother.

good point
But that was an extreme conditon, with pretty much the whole field in serious trouble consiting of world class open water swimmer.

If water was 25 degree in SA the current rules would dhave made it mandatory for non wet suit swim.

The guy that died in New york was an ex diver and was fit, too.

Anyway as death increase in tris it goes hand in hand with a higer % rates in DNFs which I think does allow. that people that are less fit are at higher risk, which is obviously not the only factor.

FJacques

Guy in my triathlon team last year had to give up in Ironman Texas, because he refused not to swim without his wetsuit. The organisation let contestants choose for themselves, but really they should have banned it. The non-wetsuiters were allowed to start 10 minutes before the others.
Now the watertemperature was 28!!! degrees. My teammate struggled massively during the swim and eventually had to give up 10km before the finishline. Nevertheless I called him brave, but foolish to persist.

"Ironman" wants to create great revenue, so most popular races will be in good weather conditions, plus they want their merchandise (i.e. wetsuits) to sell well. Most triathletes dont have a swimming background and you just cant blame them for holding onto it. I'd do the exact same.

Still a tragedy for the people involved.

tunney

FJacques wrote: »

Guy in my triathlon team last year had to give up in Ironman Texas, because he refused not to swim without his wetsuit.

*He* refused not to swim without a wetsuit.

FJacques wrote: »

The organisation let contestants choose for themselves, but really they should have banned it. The non-wetsuiters were allowed to start 10 minutes before the others.
Now the watertemperature was 28!!! degrees. My teammate struggled massively during the swim and eventually had to give up 10km before the finishline. Nevertheless I called him brave, but foolish to persist.

By choosing to swim with a wetsuit your "team mate" had indicated that he was not interested in prizes or a Kona slot. From that we can gather he was not front of pack and combined with the wetsuit choice probably not the strongest of swimmers.

In all honesty I suspect the wetsuit was not the only factor in your mate blowing up.

FJacques wrote: »

"Ironman" wants to create great revenue, so most popular races will be in good weather conditions, plus they want their merchandise (i.e. wetsuits) to sell well. Most triathletes dont have a swimming background and you just cant blame them for holding onto it. I'd do the exact same.

Still a tragedy for the people involved.

There is no Ironman (WTC) wetsuit.