Passive house lifestyle

joeirish

I've been reading loads of posts on here about passive houses. We are in the early stages of designing a new house and are considering if the passive house standard is for us. Certainly the savings in fuel costs and so on are very appealing. But would it mean a change in our lifestyles once we were living in a passive house?

Imagine a situation with children constantly running in and out of the house often leaving doors open. Or a person in a wheel chair who takes a bit of time to monoeuvre through external doors. Or what about the desire to be able to sit round an open fire (yes I know that's out) or log burning stove? Cats wanting to come and go through a cat flap? And maybe even the idea of having a Stanley range to cook on?

All of the above seem to be incompatible with the passive house standard, but maybe I'm wrong? So has living in a passive house changed your lifestyle if you previously did any of the above?

Finally if passive house standard IS incompatible with such lifestyle choices what alternative eco standard design would you recommend?

Thanks

BryanF

joeirish wrote: »

I've been reading loads of posts on here about passive houses. We are in the early stages of designing a new house and are considering if the passive house standard is for us. Certainly the savings in fuel costs and so on are very appealing.

1. But would it mean a change in our lifestyles once we were living in a passive house?

Imagine a situation with children constantly running in and out of the house often leaving doors open. Or a person in a wheel chair who takes a bit of time to monoeuvre through external doors.

2. Or what about the desire to be able to sit round an open fire (yes I know that's out) or log burning stove?

3. Cats wanting to come and go through a cat flap?


4. And maybe even the idea of having a Stanley range to cook on?

5. All of the above seem to be incompatible with the passive house standard, but maybe I'm wrong?


6. So has living in a passive house changed your lifestyle if you previously did any of the above?

7. Finally if passive house standard IS incompatible with such lifestyle choices what alternative eco standard design would you recommend?

Thanks

These are big open ended questions not conducive to being answering here. But here goes
To start: PH an current regs both lean towards MHRV and air-tightness so many of the issues related to the passive standard are coming on stream anyway. As I see it all the passive standard does is sets a standard, more carefully considered than our building regs.
1. Define lifestyle? Internal temperature will be more constant, fewer drafts, and you can still open the windows if you feel the need.
2. You will find that the current building regs now penalise open fires. So this is not unique to the PH
3. Ok I've yet to see a solution for the Cat flap, bar maybe a porch that is not air-tight. Why not let it whine until you here it and let it in?
4. In my experience with good air-tightness and insulation, the need for a Stanley's room heating facility is overkill (overheating a space when on) and most people go for conventional cookers. + do they have a room sealed option?
5. Not wrong, but most are close to being incompatible with the current buildings anyway
6. I can't answer that, but as a designer I see the benifits of lower heating and more occupant comfort.
7. Define Eco? Low co2 materials are available, designers can generally go as far with 'Eco' design as is appropriate to the clients brief. First question I tend to ask is where is the site relative to public transport and amenities - if the house is in a rural location with two cars driving an hour to work each day, it can be hard to take a clients 'Eco' requirements seriously. In my experience people have some major misconceptions about reducing energy/ flawed environmental consciousness that usually come out through the design process.
My advice would be take the principles of passive house design such as orientation, building fabric spec and compact layout. After that its upto you, many are financially struggling to even achieve the current building regs at the moment. so think about the size of house you require and spend time on design to minimise the footprint!

joeirish

Thanks BryanF for the great reply. Just a few more points (for others if they wish to contribute).

On 7, the definition of 'eco'. First to say that we are considering a rural site. We are nearing retirement so travel to work not an issue. We are near a village and would use bikes for local transport. So what I mean by eco is the design, the materials, build techniques etc for the house. Obviously insulation, triple glazing (?) would be up there. As would a good heat source (geo thermal, solar, wood?). But how to distribute it? Underfloor heating system? I've seen reference to "near passive house standard" which might be what would do for us considering the above lifestyle choices.

For the cat flap issue, I like to idea of a separate porch but it got me thinking. Is it possible to have one part of the house PH standard and another section not PH standard and some way to separate these with an airtight door or such? Just thinbking out loud hear, not sure if this is at all feasible.

Thanks again and hope to hear more ideas on this topic.

BryanF

joeirish wrote: »

Thanks BryanF for the great reply. Just a few more points (for others if they wish to contribute).

On 7, the definition of 'eco'. First to say that we are considering a rural site. We are nearing retirement so travel to work not an issue. We are near a village and would use bikes for local transport. So what I mean by eco is the design, the materials, build techniques etc for the house. Obviously insulation, triple glazing (?) would be up there. As would a good heat source (geo thermal, solar, wood?).

8. But how to distribute it? Underfloor heating system? I've seen reference to "near passive house standard" which might be what would do for us considering the above lifestyle choices.

For the cat flap issue, I like to idea of a separate porch but it got me thinking.

9. Is it possible to have one part of the house PH standard and another section not PH standard and some way to separate these with an airtight door or such? Just thinbking out loud hear, not sure if this is at all feasible.

Thanks again and hope to hear more ideas on this topic.

As regards materials a locally souced timber frame with natural insulation would be a fine option, whether or not you go 'passive' the calculations for the ph standard will help decide window, wall etc specification. I'd recommend this book as a starting point for a 'eco' home http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1856751961
And this site/ magazine on passive house building http://www.constructireland.ie/

8. delivery of heat is up to you, once insulated correctly UFH can be a good option, but it's the storage of heat/ fuel soucre that more important decision at your stage. and in the case of timber- whether you are willing to clean out a log boiler/ fire that should be of a higher priority.
9. Is this all for the cat? Ha! I dont honestly know can (hypothetically) a house be split with half being passive. But why on earth would you want to do that..

Could I take you back to my earlier post. You and your designer should be thinking about orientation, usable compact spaces and building fabric first, then heating systems and finally after these the Cat flap!

Certified

joeirish wrote: »

Is it possible to have one part of the house PH standard and another section not PH standard and some way to separate these with an airtight door or such?

Yeah that’s possible alright. It would cost the same as a standard porch.

I personally would not get overly hung up about having to use a car to travel to and from work tho, this argument on sustainability/eco grounds will be short lived. The motor industry is changing as rapidly as building standards!

Certified

For a cheaper alternative to building a porch for your pets you could install a cat or dog flap from this crowd in the states.

They are suitable for a passivhaus.

http://www.energyefficientdogdoors.com/Insulated-Cat-Door

Certified

joeirish wrote: »

what about the desire to be able to sit round an open fire (yes I know that's out) or log burning stove?

Open fires are not ruled out in Passivhaus homes. The open flues usually associated with them are. An environmentally friendly and very impressive bio-ethanol open fire can be used.
A log burning stove can also be used as long as it is room sealed.

A stanley range in theory could be used also but I would imagine you would want to turn it off after about a week.

just do it

The idea of a separate room not at PH standard has merit. A cool room just off your kitchen for the fridge, freezer and fresh veg is a good idea as the fresh veg and fruit in particular at a regular ambient temp of 22-25oC will go off quicker.

just do it

BryanF wrote: »

4. In my experience with good air-tightness and insulation, the need for a Stanley's room heating facility is overkill (overheating a space when on) and most people go for conventional cookers. + do they have a room sealed option?

Agree with the overheating. We've a small stove in a sitting room in a celtic tiger poorly built dormer bungalow and on still days we've to put the window on the first latch to stop the room overheating! The room has large windows on 2 walls and a double door into the kitchen that is nearly always open.

So now thinking of a PH, I think you'd end up turning off the Stanley as it would overheat possibly not only the living space it's in, but also the whole house!

Certified

joeirish wrote: »

Imagine a situation with children constantly running in and out of the house often leaving doors open. Or a person in a wheel chair who takes a bit of time to monoeuvre through external doors.

The above is what living in any house is all about. The only difference when living in a PH is that the impact of cold air rushing in will be less.

All of the above seem to be incompatible with the passive house standard, but maybe I'm wrong? So has living in a passive house changed your lifestyle if you previously did any of the above?

Finally if passive house standard IS incompatible with such lifestyle choices what alternative eco standard design would you recommend?

I'm going to say that you are wrong, as I cannot see how living in a PH will be incompatible with any lifestyle choices. Thats the simple beauty of the concept, it is passive.

joeirish

I'm going to say that you are wrong, as I cannot see how living in a PH will be incompatible with any lifestyle choices. Thats the simple beauty of the concept, it is passive.

Thanks for the reply. But it seems that open fires, cat flaps and a Stanley range would be incompatible with PH house build. Maybe I misunderstood what others have being saying?

But what I am trying to find out is how have others' lifestyles been affected after they have moved into a PH. Is it a bid deal to do without a real fire, cat flaps, doors that are left open by children running in and out, Stanley ranges etc. Anybody out there who has moved into a PH and had to change their lifestyles? Maybe this just applies to folks who live in rural areas?

Certified

joeirish wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. But it seems that open fires, cat flaps and a Stanley range would be incompatible with PH house build. Maybe I misunderstood what others have being saying?

But what I am trying to find out is how have others' lifestyles been affected after they have moved into a PH. Is it a bid deal to do without a real fire, cat flaps, doors that are left open by children running in and out, Stanley ranges etc. Anybody out there who has moved into a PH and had to change their lifestyles? Maybe this just applies to folks who live in rural areas?

?......fair enough, I'll leave this to the others so. Best of luck with your build.

sas

joeirish wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. But it seems that open fires, cat flaps and a Stanley range would be incompatible with PH house build. Maybe I misunderstood what others have being saying?

But what I am trying to find out is how have others' lifestyles been affected after they have moved into a PH. Is it a bid deal to do without a real fire, cat flaps, doors that are left open by children running in and out, Stanley ranges etc. Anybody out there who has moved into a PH and had to change their lifestyles? Maybe this just applies to folks who live in rural areas?

"Open fires" in terms of what most of us understand, are most definitely out. You can't have an 8 inch diameter hole permanently open to outside and assume that the house will be easy to heat. If it was a hole that size in the wall with no grill\cover on it, you wouldn't dream of having it. This was a big deal for us in lifestyle terms though because in winter we're perfectly happy to camp in front of a fire and watch tv. We're in the middle of our first winter in the house and I really miss a fire. However, we will have a wood burning stove once the budget recovers a little, we've got the chimney etc. in place. I don't believe an open fire in the traditional sense will be any big deal for us once we have our stove. There are some great models available now with wide views fo the fire inside.

Cat flaps that would allow a cat to enter the main house freely would appear to be out. There's a link further up to a solution which may or may not work, I haven't looked at it. We're not an animal familly so this was no issue at all.

A stanley range is likely to overheat the room it's in so it's inherently out for the PH. What is it about one that you'd miss?

Doors to "outside" being left open to children running in and out I assume. I have a 5 and an 8 year old. They don't go out much in winter so there's minimal impact there. They've learned to close the door behind them when they do. In milder weather it wouldn't matter. We had sunday lunch at the end of sept with a 6.5ft wide, 8 foot tall slider open due to the heat. The kids could go in and out as much as they wanted.

I happen to like that we don't ever need to open windows to deal with condensation, HRV copes perfectly well. It's means fewer insects in the house, less dust. I happen to like that. I like that I didn't notice yesterday how cold it was until my parents arrived at 5pm for a visit i.e. we hadn't left the house and the fact that it was 2 degrees made no difference. I can't tell in the morning based on the temp of the room if we've had frost or not.

It's worth noting again that the building regs any new home starting now must build to, are very very close to the PH spec. anyway. So it's no longer a case of your lifestyle being compatible with the PH concept, it's about it being compatible with the law.

beyondpassive

I'd like to address the topic of compromise for Passivhaus standard as this came up as a recurring issue with Architects clients over the last year. Most come to the table with preconceived ideas about how their lifestyle may be affected by living in a passivhaus home.

1. Lifestyle. In reality a new home has a big impact on their lives, but the energy aspects of passivhaus, quietly and diligently does its work in the background. I've been told by passivhaus dwellers, that as an indoor environment, they are quite boring. The temperatures and humidity are steady and you don't hear gales or sleet. If the kids leave the doors open on cold windy days and the interior air cools down, well shortly after closing the doors, the heat bounces back out of the thermal mass and restores the steady 20 degrees.

It also has to be recognised that every new house build in Ireland henceforth is going to be virtually Passivhaus. The 2011 building regulations Part L compliance plus the impending Building Control Amendment Act 2013 make near passive a legal requirement. For detached dwellings, heat recovery, airtightness, thermal bridge reduction, renewables and treble glazing are required for basic compliance.

2. open fire. A project in Meath is going to be a passivhaus with a cold Larder, which uses ambient air or free cooling to keep produce fresh. A couple of projects in Dublin and Wexfort are Part L compliant with Heat recovery ventilation and open fires, they have an engineered solution. I prefer the lifting glass door solution myself.

3. Cat flap. There is an airtight cat flap on the market.

4. There are a number of multifuel stoves and ranges comparable with air tight mechanically ventilated houses / passive houses.

5. Passivhaus is compatible with whatever you want, its just the solutions need to be thought out and designed into the build. Those home builders who only want to pay €1,500 for Planning drawings they intend to build from, have to take what they are given.

6. There are at least 4 boardies who live in certified passivhaus, while they seem to have had a lot of challenges during the design, especially as they were pioneers, be worth getting their perspective.

7. Passivhaus isn't necessarily Eco, you can build one from cement and polymer based products, they are normally built on virgin farmland 10miles from schools and shops. Look at passivhaus as a means of achieving verifyable quality control and of accuratly predicting low energy performance.

8. In a passivhaus, you can distribute the heat solely through the ventilation system. Most passivhaus I know of, use a hydrphonic system, i.e. underfloor heating and towel rails. This is generated by LPG boiler and solar, Heat pump and PV, or wood burning boiler stove and solar thermal.

9. You dont need a porch in a Passivhaus. Yes you can have unheated or lower temp zones in a passivhaus. One idea is the Wintergarden, a glazed transitional area to the south side of the building, which preheats air. In general though there is no need for this, most passivhaus I've dealt with have glazing ratio's of around 33-37% (windows doors and rooflight area relative to floor area) so even in the winter you fell like you're 'out foreign'. Again passivhaus dwellers can comment on light quality.

Summary. In building a house today you are building to the so-called 'near-passive' standard. Minimal complance being 2011 compliant. This will have Heat recovery ventilation as standard with best practice airtighness of 2 ach's. So you're open fires, cat flap and stanley range will need to be well designed. But as Bryan said, will you really them in a passivhaus. One argument against open fires is that they spit out a lot of dust and ash, a good insert or stove neads little clearing out. Best of luck in your design process.

joeirish

sas wrote: »

"Open fires" in terms of what most of us understand, are most definitely out...

Cat flaps that would allow a cat to enter the main house freely would appear to be out. There's a link further up to a solution which may or may not work, I haven't looked at it. We're not an animal familly so this was no issue at all.

A stanley range is likely to overheat the room it's in so it's inherently out for the PH. What is it about one that you'd miss?

Doors to "outside" being left open to children running in and out I assume. I have a 5 and an 8 year old. They don't go out much in winter so there's minimal impact there. They've learned to close the door behind them when they do. In milder weather it wouldn't matter. We had sunday lunch at the end of sept with a 6.5ft wide, 8 foot tall slider open due to the heat. The kids could go in and out as much as they wanted.


It's worth noting again that the building regs any new home starting now must build to, are very very close to the PH spec. anyway. So it's no longer a case of your lifestyle being compatible with the PH concept, it's about it being compatible with the law.

Thanks SAS. Just to say that I did originally point out that I know about open fires and that would not be something I was trying to included in any house design. But sitting around looking at a wall or the TV is not as appealing as having a fire for a centrepiece in a room. I am interested in stoves and if they now can be accommodated in a near PH spec house.

My wife just likes cooking on and in the Stanley (it is about the best way to re-create the traditional Irish roast goose for Christmas for example).

In this house there is lots of going out, maybe it's something to do with the open country, the stream, trees to climb in and a treehouse. But there is loads of traffic in and out. And a wheelchair user does take longer to get through a door than somebody on foot.

I've discovered the requirements of building regs but I haven't been advised that currently a new build needs to be at the PH spec (maybe it's different in other counties?). However there is much in the PH spec that I would want to incorporate into our new house. Just wondering if compromise is possible?

Thanks again

joeirish

thanks beyondpassive for that detailed reply. Lots for me to think about. Do you have any recommendations for stove manufacturers?

Is it now the case that HRV is a legal requirement in all new builds? I wasn't aware this was the case to be Part L compliant and the proposed legislation is still only proposed and may not even be enacted? Or maybe I'm wrong?

When I mentioned Eco in my original post what I meant was the running costs of the new house not the build materials. So regardless of what the regulations are I would always want a house that had a minimal carbon footprint when we live in it. So good insulation, double glazing and so on would be minimal requirements and are already in the house we currently live in.

Thanks again for the information.

beyondpassive

joeirish wrote: »

thanks beyondpassive for that detailed reply. Lots for me to think about. Do you have any recommendations for stove manufacturers?

I'll PM you the stove manufacturer, they also do ranges. I'll also send you the name of a certified Passivhaus homeowner who shows prospective passive builders around his house in Wicklow.

joeirish wrote: »

Is it now the case that HRV is a legal requirement in all new builds? I wasn't aware this was the case to be Part L compliant and the proposed legislation is still only proposed and may not even be enacted? Or maybe I'm wrong?

Part L compliance is a legal requirement for all new builds. If you submitted planning after december 1st 2011, then you must comply by demonstrating with DEAP that your build uses 60% less energy than a 2005 regs compliant house and has 10kWh/m2 of renewables. The building control legislation which enforces this is in place, however it is being amended to make it more enforcable.

When I mentioned Eco in my original post what I meant was the running costs of the new house not the build materials. So regardless of what the regulations are I would always want a house that had a minimal carbon footprint when we live in it. So good insulation, double glazing and so on would be minimal requirements and are already in the house we currently live in.

Ya the term 'Eco' is much devalued. The best ecological approach would be to renovate where you live now and leave the field to the birds and the bees. The real reason we go for Passivhaus is indoor climate, running costs, longevity of fabric and components and build quality

Thanks again for the information.

No problem, I always wonder though, would I use the advice i dispense if I were building myself :-). I've learned more from home builders than I ever shared with them. One theme reoccuring, although every building project is unique. When you do cost/ benefit analysis, you find here is a particular low energy specification, which exceeds building regs 2011 and is somewhere there or thereabouts the passive benchmark. Sometimes it is 8% away in costs, sometimes 0%. I generally find based on 2012, that it needs 4% extra (in build cost to get certified plus €1,500 certification fee). This is the cost benefit sweet spot. Design to this target and you've got a very good house, al the better if you can push it over the certified Passivhaus line. The key cost-wise, is to get it right on the drawing board. You need a good Architect or excellent technologist to design to this level of detail, the local draftmen who drew up most of the butt ugly one-off muck from the last decade, are well out of their depth when asked to help procure a building that works.

sas

joeirish wrote: »

Thanks SAS. Just to say that I did originally point out that I know about open fires and that would not be something I was trying to included in any house design. But sitting around looking at a wall or the TV is not as appealing as having a fire for a centrepiece in a room. I am interested in stoves and if they now can be accommodated in a near PH spec house.

My house is Passive and I will have the stove. There are several others around the country too that are passive with stove. So yes, they can be used. They ain't cheap though....

joeirish wrote: »

My wife just likes cooking on and in the Stanley (it is about the best way to re-create the traditional Irish roast goose for Christmas for example).

Personal choice plays it's part. Be very mindful of overheating though, no point having it if you can't use it. In our home, the regular ovens on a sunday can boil the house. On christmas day around 1pm I nearly passed out, the
kitchen hit >25 degrees.

joeirish wrote: »

In this house there is lots of going out, maybe it's something to do with the open country, the stream, trees to climb in and a treehouse. But there is loads of traffic in and out. And a wheelchair user does take longer to get through a door than somebody on foot.

If it's mild out, the effect of leaving a door open isn't that much in our experience. If it's cold and wet, surely there would be less traffic?

As regards the wheelchair user, I'd personally go with the porch option for them if it can be made to work. We have 2 front doors. The outer door is actually a lower spec. than the inner door. When you are in the porch, technically you are still outside the PH. This would allow the wheel chair user to enter the home at their leisure.

just do it

beyondpassive wrote: »

A project in Meath is going to be a passivhaus with a cold Larder, which uses ambient air or free cooling to keep produce fresh.

Can you expand on how this is designed?

beyondpassive

just do it wrote: »

Can you expand on how this is designed?

Although the larder is within the building footprint, it is outside the thermal envelope. So the wall between the kitchen and larder is an external wall and the larder door is an external door. The air that vents the larder is simply outside air with no heat recovery.

joeirish

Thanks for all the responses. There is much to think about. But another question has occurred.

How to folks dry their clothes after they come out of the washing machine? Obviously we cannot rely on good drying weather and the good old fashioned clothes line in the garden. We use a "sheila maid" (a clothes rack on a pulley system for those who don't know) which is mounted on the kitchen ceiling above our range. When the clothes come out of the washing machine in the evening they are hung on this and overnight the heat from the range dries them. No worries about the weather and no need for a tumble dryer.

So just interested in how you would dry your wet laundry in a PH?

Thanks

beyondpassive

joeirish wrote: »

How to folks dry their clothes after they come out of the washing machine? Obviously we cannot rely on good drying weather and the good old fashioned clothes line in the garden. We use a "sheila maid" (a clothes rack on a pulley system for those who don't know) which is mounted on the kitchen ceiling above our range. When the clothes come out of the washing machine in the evening they are hung on this and overnight the heat from the range dries them. No worries about the weather and no need for a tumble dryer.

So just interested in how you would dry your wet laundry in a PH?

Passive houses have that one nailed. The heat recovery ventilation, supply's air to habitable rooms and extracts from wetrooms and kitchen. Your utility room and hot press would have a heat recovery extract cowl, this will move at least 5 litres of air per second from these rooms in its standard mode, which is replaced with prewarmed fresh air. The moving damp extract air condenses on the heat exchanger in the MHRV and the heat energy from this phase change is passed into the fresh air. So it dry's the room, (humidity in Irish Passivhaus is about 65%) and can extract the heat from the water vapour. You can put the buffer/accumulator tank in the hotpress, or if the tank is in the utility you can just put a radiator in the hot press. There is no need for a dryer but if you have one you can use the waste heat in the ventilation system (provided you filter the lint out of the air)