If Mass Is Boring

georgieporgy

Reading some of the responses, particularly in the A&A forum, to the thread started by Kosie on Mass attendence prior to 1970, I notice that many ex/lapsed Catholics use the excuse of "too much Mass" and "being dragged along to Mass by parents" to explain their new found freedom from religion.

The following interview might be instructive to some of these individuals

If Mass Is Boring

http://www.zenit.org/article-28839?l=english

ZENIT: What would you recommend to Catholics who say they are bored at Mass?



Bishop Echevarría: I would recommend that they participate with sincerity in the Mass, seeking and loving Jesus. In "The Way," St. Josemaría wrote: "You say the Mass is long and, I add, because your love is short."


Read the whole interview. It's not too long and quite thought provoking.

homer911

georgieporgy wrote: »

Reading some of the responses, particularly in the A&A forum, to the thread started by Kosie on Mass attendence prior to 1970, I notice that many ex/lapsed Catholics use the excuse of "too much Mass" and "being dragged along to Mass by parents" to explain their new found freedom from religion.

The following interview might be instructive to some of these individuals

If Mass Is Boring

http://www.zenit.org/article-28839?l=english

ZENIT: What would you recommend to Catholics who say they are bored at Mass?



Bishop Echevarría: I would recommend that they participate with sincerity in the Mass, seeking and loving Jesus. In "The Way," St. Josemaría wrote: "You say the Mass is long and, I add, because your love is short."


Read the whole interview. It's not too long and quite thought provoking.

One could argue the same for many things. If you dont actively participate, of course it will appear boring

Watching a Shakespeare play is boring if you dont tune into the language right from the start, but once you do...

Gumbi

Lots of people probably don't want to be there, but for a plethora of reasons (culture, tradition, the power of the CC had a lot to do with it too) they were.

Manach

Reflecting on the last Sunday's mass, it was the community engaged in common ritual. The church contained the various generations, who showed a spirit of togetherness in the present of the Spirit. So to be bored at mass, is to be have an ennui of life.

totus tuus

I've seen a marked increase in attendance to Mass these past few months, It's great to see so many young people in the congregation, and at Adoration!

The Vatican is currently preparing a manual to help priests to celebrate Holy Mass.

The prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments criticized existing abuses such as showmanship, and praised moments of silence "that are action," which enable the priest and the faithful to talk with Jesus Christ and which exclude the predominance of words that often becomes showmanship on the part of the priest. The correct attitude is the one "indicated by Saint John the Baptist, when he says he must decrease and the Messiah must increase."

http://www.zenit.org/article-36355?l=english

Standman

I don't know of any atheist (particularly in that thread you mentioned) who used "too much mass" as an "excuse" for being an atheist. Therefore I would think that interview you posted is utterly irrelevant to the vast majority of atheists.

philologos

If Mass is boring the question to ask is why is it boring?

Andrewf20

philologos wrote: »

If Mass is boring the question to ask is why is it boring?

Ive attended alot of Mass in my time. The problem I found was that its pretty much the same every week in content and routine. Some priests said great, interesting homolies which if done right was the best part of the Mass for me, other priests more commonly didnt. The good homolies usually involved an interesting story or experience that the priest came across.

I mentioned this before in other threads but the best religious ceremony by far I was ever at was a gospel mass in Mississippi. Full of catchy gospel singing, with more engagement from the audience. It was a small intimate church setting (100 people roughly) which was more conducive to audienece interaction I suppose. The Masses here can be fairly stiff in comparison.

philologos

Thanks Andrew. I think that's really helpful. I guess for me if the service doesn't preach clearly from the Bible and if it doesn't lead me to think about how to live and speak for Jesus or show me what difference that makes then I have to wonder why I'm there. Opportunities to serve the church are also hugely important for me.

Not saying this applies to all, but if it is more about ritual than words that's tough to justify.

Zombrex

georgieporgy wrote: »

Reading some of the responses, particularly in the A&A forum, to the thread started by Kosie on Mass attendence prior to 1970, I notice that many ex/lapsed Catholics use the excuse of "too much Mass" and "being dragged along to Mass by parents" to explain their new found freedom from religion.

Observations as an outsider, make of them as you wish.

It is fundamentally inaccurate to classify these people as ex/lapsed Catholics, and as such the advice from the bishop about reembracing the sacrifice of the mass and the love of Jesus, will miss the mark.

Do not think of these people as ex Catholics. The phenomena of considering children raised in a religion as belonging to the religion has masked the issue. The majority of these people were never Catholics, were never believers. They simply happen to have participated in Catholic rituals as virtue of the family they were born into.

As such it is pointless to appeal to them to re-embrace what the mass is about since they never accepted that in the first place. You cannot re-associate with the loving relationship you have with Jesus if you have no idea what that means.

Genuine Catholics need to consider these people non-Catholics, even non-Christians, and approach them from first principles, answering why religion should mean something to them, why Christianity/Catholicism should mean something to them.

Doc Farrell

Zombrex wrote: »

Observations as an outsider,

Genuine Catholics need to consider these people non-Catholics, even non-Christians

An intelligent post as expected from Zombrex however this part of your final sentence is the opposite of the Catholic position. Everyone, no matter what they have done or thought is welcome 100%. This is the open door approach.
I understand your points and they make a great deal of sense however they lack the central theme as expressed in the parable of the prodigal son, as explained by Henri Nouwen.
Your view unfortunately presupposes that 'ordinary' Catholics have had no experience of a 'loving relationship with Jesus', if I may use your words. This is a mistaken presupposition IMO.

georgieporgy

philologos wrote: »

If Mass is boring the question to ask is why is it boring?

Mass is not boring Phil, but some people say it is and they use that as an excuse not to attend.
To quote Bishop Echevarria in his interview :
When the Mass is the center and root of the Christian's day, when all his tasks are oriented to the Eucharistic sacrifice, it can be affirmed that his whole day is a Mass and that his place of work is an altar, where he gives himself fully to God as his beloved son.

Gumbi

georgieporgy wrote: »

Mass is not boring Phil, but some people say it is and they use that as an excuse not to attend.
To quote Bishop Echevarria in his interview :
When the Mass is the center and root of the Christian's day, when all his tasks are oriented to the Eucharistic sacrifice, it can be affirmed that his whole day is a Mass and that his place of work is an altar, where he gives himself fully to God as his beloved son.

Considering something boring is an utterly subjective perspective.

philologos

Gumbi wrote: »

Considering something boring is an utterly subjective perspective.

I agree. It is always worthwhile to understand why other people think it is boring, or a fruitless exercise in order to improve how the church communicates the Gospel.

georgieporgy

maybe we could learn something from this guy


http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2013/01/heartbroken-dog-attends-mass-daily/

Zombrex

Doc Farrell wrote: »

An intelligent post as expected from Zombrex however this part of your final sentence is the opposite of the Catholic position. Everyone, no matter what they have done or thought is welcome 100%. This is the open door approach.
I understand your points and they make a great deal of sense however they lack the central theme as expressed in the parable of the prodigal son, as explained by Henri Nouwen.
Your view unfortunately presupposes that 'ordinary' Catholics have had no experience of a 'loving relationship with Jesus', if I may use your words. This is a mistaken presupposition IMO.

I think you misunderstand, my comment was nothing to do with whether they are welcome, it was to do with their level of faith and/or understanding. The Bishops response is aimed at those who are well versed in Catholicism but who's faith has weined. I'm saying that is an incorrect assumption, treat these "Catholics" as if you were attempting to explain mass to a Hindu or Buddist or someone who just arrived from Mars.

You are correct that I would view most of these cultural Catholics as having no experience of what the bishop refers to. This is just my experience of my non religious friends, but certainly I've never heard any of them refer to anything close to that, and certainly not that the had a deep relation with God but gave it up because the mass was boring. A large number of my catholic friends don't even think god exists, though the thought of identifying as an athiest would seem ridiculous. They would just say you don't have to take the god thing that seriously to be catholic, which should high light he issue facing genuine Catholics trying to teach proper Catholicism to cultural Catholics.

Zombrex

georgieporgy wrote: »

Mass is not boring Phil, but some people say it is and they use that as an excuse not to attend.
To quote Bishop Echevarria in his interview :
When the Mass is the center and root of the Christian's day, when all his tasks are oriented to the Eucharistic sacrifice, it can be affirmed that his whole day is a Mass and that his place of work is an altar, where he gives himself fully to God as his beloved son.

Ummm, are you actually interested in these cultural Catholics and bringing them back to Catholicism, or are you just looking for arguments as to why its all their own fault?

They don't attend because if you are not a true believer the mass is just some guy talking at you for an hour about irrelevant stuff. Why would anyone go to that?

martinedwards

speaking as a prod, I have only a little experience of the RC Mass, but church services in general?

yes, they CAN be boring.

some clergy are like the guy in the Father Ted Christmas special... the most boring priest in Ireland..... it Happens!!!

our church has a contemporary music group, and we have members of the church leading the bible readings and intercessionary prayer, but sometimes it IS boring......but then sometimes after you've seen the best film in the world six times, it could be boring.....

georgieporgy

Zombrex wrote: »

Ummm, are you actually interested in these cultural Catholics and bringing them back to Catholicism, or are you just looking for arguments as to why its all their own fault?

They don't attend because if you are not a true believer the mass is just some guy talking at you for an hour about irrelevant stuff. Why would anyone go to that?

The vast majority of cultural catholics have made their choice , which I respect, and tend to remain so for life. You are familiar with the parable of the sower.The hearts of these individuals are attracted to other things so the seed fails to take root.
The duty of a christian is to spread the Good News throughout the world so everyone has a chance to respond. A response is needed however, it's not a question of force feeding.

In my day job as a dentist I tell people to floss their teeth or they will lose them. Nevertheless most don't bother, and you should hear the excuses they come up with! I used to worry about it when I was younger. Now I think "Gee how silly they are. You think they would be interested in saving their own teeth."
Those who are interested tend to ask for instruction in how to floss properly and go on to be great disciples and no longer see it as a tedious task.

georgieporgy

martinedwards wrote: »

speaking as a prod, I have only a little experience of the RC Mass, but church services in general?

yes, they CAN be boring.

some clergy are like the guy in the Father Ted Christmas special... the most boring priest in Ireland..... it Happens!!!

our church has a contemporary music group, and we have members of the church leading the bible readings and intercessionary prayer, but sometimes it IS boring......but then sometimes after you've seen the best film in the world six times, it could be boring.....

It would be a mistake to equate the Mass with other church services, Martin, regardless of how well intentioned people may be. And you won't learn anything about the priesthood or Mass from tv programmes like Fr Ted, except perhaps how much contempt their creators have for these subjects.
Interestingly most christians who convert to rc from other denominations do so when they "get" the Mass . They still have all their other unanswered questions (confession, purgatory, Mary, "works" etc) but now they know where to find the answers
.
This short video is a good place to start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UabMF-8uXxg

don't forget to watch all 3 parts ( total 30 mins)

philologos

georgieporgy wrote: »

It would be a mistake to equate the Mass with other church services, Martin, regardless of how well intentioned people may be. And you won't learn anything about the priesthood or Mass from tv programmes like Fr Ted, except perhaps how much contempt their creators have for these subjects.
Interestingly most christians who convert to rc from other denominations do so when they "get" the Mass . They still have all their other unanswered questions (confession, purgatory, Mary, "works" etc) but now they know where to find the answers
.
This short video is a good place to start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UabMF-8uXxg

don't forget to watch all 3 parts ( total 30 mins)

I couldn't disagree more strongly with you georgieporgy. I suspect if I ask any more questions about how the RCC gets it any more right than any other denomination of Christianity I'm going to get that "the RCC is the only true church" line trotted out on repeat.

georgieporgy

Ha. You've been spending too much time on the megathread Phil .

Seriously, I don't mind you disagreeing. We belong to different religions so it would be funny if we were in full agreement.

The purpose of this thread however is to shed some light on the catholic Mass for anyone interested.

Doc Farrell

Zombrex wrote: »

I think you misunderstand, my comment was nothing to do with whether they are welcome, it was to do with their level of faith and/or understanding. The Bishops response is aimed at those who are well versed in Catholicism but who's faith has weined. I'm saying that is an incorrect assumption, treat these "Catholics" as if you were attempting to explain mass to a Hindu or Buddist or someone who just arrived from Mars.

You are correct that I would view most of these cultural Catholics as having no experience of what the bishop refers to. This is just my experience of my non religious friends, but certainly I've never heard any of them refer to anything close to that, and certainly not that the had a deep relation with God but gave it up because the mass was boring. A large number of my catholic friends don't even think god exists, though the thought of identifying as an athiest would seem ridiculous. They would just say you don't have to take the god thing that seriously to be catholic, which should high light he issue facing genuine Catholics trying to teach proper Catholicism to cultural Catholics.

I'm extremely wary of definitions of who a proper catholic is, or who is genuine or religious or serious. There are layers of hypocrisy and dishonesty in all of us so it's less embarrassing in the long run not to declare who is a better believer. It's easy to be pious on the outside and fairly rotten on the inside. We've had more than enough examples of that.

To go back to the subject of the thread, I've found that tiny chapels and small groups have a much more powerful effect on me then huge churches.

Zombrex

Doc Farrell wrote: »

I'm extremely wary of definitions of who a proper catholic is, or who is genuine or religious or serious. There are layers of hypocrisy and dishonesty in all of us so it's less embarrassing in the long run not to declare who is a better believer. It's easy to be pious on the outside and fairly rotten on the inside. We've had more than enough examples of that.

I appreciate that, but I think we can all agree that someone who does not recognise the Catholic church as God's church, who does not think the death and resurrection of Jesus was all that important, who does not think following Jesus' teachings on sin is all that important ("guidelines" is a common phrase among my friends), and who in fact probably doesn't believe God exists, is not a genuine Catholics

Doc Farrell wrote: »

To go back to the subject of the thread, I've found that tiny chapels and small groups have a much more powerful effect on me then huge churches.

I can see why that would be true, it is easy to zone out in a large group with the speaker miles away at the top of the room, even if you are interested in what is being said (which sums up my 4 years in college)

The Catholic church could learn a lot the advances in education, which put emphasis on small groups that have immediate connection with the teacher/lecturer, including individual participation in the class. I'm not a Catholic so I don't know is participation beyond all saying the right thing at the right time, considered a no-no in a mass, though if it is I hope there is a better reason than just that isn't how it was done in the past.

Zombrex

georgieporgy wrote: »

A response is needed however, it's not a question of force feeding.

Well you are going to run into significant problems if you view any concessions to people who find mass irrelevant or boring as a form of "force feeding".

I mean it might make the priests feel better than they can say everyone has left because of their own faults and weaknesses, but that isn't going to do much when he is speaking to an empty church.

So again I wonder what the purpose is. And BTW health departments around the world spend millions on trying to get people to take better care with their dental health, going so far as to put fluoride in the water systems, so it is not a case that they simply say coldly "these are the facts, if you ignore them on your head be it"

totus tuus

A Catholic must truly believe in the Divine Presence, that Jesus Christ is present, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist. It's the Sacrificial Lamb, being offered to the Father on behalf of mankind, it would bring tears to your eyes, as it often does to me! Sadly some come to Mass expecting to be 'entertained', and don't really understand what is happening at Mass! We stand amid myriads of Holy Angels who adore the Holy Sacrifice with reverential Awe! Yes, the liturgy is important, and I find that some homilies can be good and some pretty dire, but the Holy Sacrifice makes up for what is lacking!

Doc Farrell

Zombrex wrote: »

The Catholic church could learn a lot the advances in education, which put emphasis on small groups that have immediate connection with the teacher/lecturer, including individual participation in the class. I'm not a Catholic so I don't know is participation ...

That would have been my view for many years, as an outsider I would have seen silent laypeople following priests. But actually every parish has different groups organizing different things. One can be as involved or uninvolved as one likes. One thing I'm certain of, if I'm as dismissive of certain types while within the church as I was dismissive of certain types while I was outside then I'll be a burden and a nuisance. I have to be careful of that easy judgementalism.

El_Duderino 09

homer911 wrote: »

One could argue the same for many things. If you dont actively participate, of course it will appear boring

Watching a Shakespeare play is boring if you dont tune into the language right from the start, but once you do...

I agree in the case of Shakespeare but I would also point out that for most of the time catholics said mass in a foreign language that most people didnt understand at all. wonder if they found it boring...

totus tuus

Red Pepper

totus tuus wrote: »

A Catholic must truly believe in the Divine Presence, that Jesus Christ is present, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist. It's the Sacrificial Lamb, being offered to the Father on behalf of mankind, it would bring tears to your eyes, as it often does to me!

Are you serious here? I thought most Catholics saw communion as symbolic despite what the RCC doctrine says.

martinedwards

georgieporgy wrote: »

It would be a mistake to equate the Mass with other church services, Martin, regardless of how well intentioned people may be. And you won't learn anything about the priesthood or Mass from tv programmes like Fr Ted, except perhaps how much contempt their creators have for these subjects.
Interestingly most christians who convert to rc from other denominations do so when they "get" the Mass . They still have all their other unanswered questions (confession, purgatory, Mary, "works" etc) but now they know where to find the answers

what a load of patronizing twaddle!

if someone doesn't "get" it,then being bored out of their skull wont help them.

if someone has been brought up in the culture of one denomination or another then they will get it, regardless of what that denomination is.

an outsider, on their first visit, might find it off putting, interesting, dull, exciting or any of a wide range of responses, but if the sermon/homily is delivered in a dull monotone through a tinny sounding PA into a big echoey barn, then they will be bored stupid, regardless of denomination!

As a charismatic, I see it as my role to go to the service ready and prepared to worship, and GIVE of myself to God, and to be open and ready to receive. then it's the Holy Spirit who crosses the divide to minister to my needs. this can happen in an enthralling interesting service, and it can happen in a dull as ditch water boring one.

unless of course you (personally) don't have the Holy Spirit in a mass...... because I'm pretty sure everyone else does!!

hinault

I think it depends on the participation levels of the congregation.

If more of the congregation participated, fewer attendees might say that Mass is boring.

What do I mean by participation?
Join the Church choir.
Volunteer to do a lesson.
Volunteer to read a prayer of the faithful.
Volunteer to bring the offertory gifts to the altar.
Volunteer to help the church collections.
Join the Eucharistic ministers group in your parish.

Or parishioners who cannot do any of the above, could decide to set aside one hour out of their week to attend Mass and to try and concentrate upon the words of the Mass and the Sermon to the best of their ability.

goz83

Mass was always boring to me. The deft tone drilling through your head and the standing and the sitting and the kneeling. And so, so often, some lady singing a tune with a shrieking voice. The collection bags getting handed around was one of my pet peeves, especially that it was done twice within a few minutes of each other. The holy water always had dirt in it, likely from dozens of dirty finger nails. The only good thing about mass was when it ended. I see this post is negative, but its genuine. I won't be back to read responses, as this thread reminded me of mass and I felt I couldn't leave until I reached the end. I also believe that most Catholics are paper Catholics. They don't believe but they carry on with tradition. My 2 cents. Ps- I do believe in God and was brought up in a catholic family.

Roger Buck

I find Mass is often difficult to go to. But I go every day.

The Mass is a supernatural event and it hurts me to see it trivialised by so many banal things.

But I go every day. I need it - however boring, banal or trivialised the liturgy is.

J.R.R. Tolkien I think would be very hurt by so many Masses today - not all! - but he understood the need to go to Mass daily whether it is boring or not:


On J.R.R. Tolkien and the Magic of Frequent Communion:


http://corjesusacratissimum.org/2012/09/on-j-r-r-tolkien-and-the-magic-of-frequent-communion/

Private Joker

the problem i find with mass is the rigid adherence to protocol, stand up, sit down, kneel, respond, its very hard to be reflective or to digest the meaning of the sermon when you're waiting for your next cue.

martinedwards

I have mobility problems.

I sit all the way through.

bound for hell no doubt!!

Geomy

Mass seems very boring.

I think they try to Jazz it up but
no joy. ..

I like visiting old ruined churches and chapels, there's some nice old churches around Co Clare

Roger Buck

I find Mass frequently boring as I say.

The jazz makes it only more insufferable.

I would recommend the Mass in Latin, which would have onced imbued those old ruined churches, Geomy.

A very different spirit.

If you are in County Clare, you may be near the Institute of Christ the King in Limerick whose Latin Masses are imbued with that same spirit of old - and are very unboring indeed.

However, boring or not, I still follow what J.R.R. Tolkien says so eloquently in the link I have given above.

Roger Buck

PS. I forgot the same Institute also has the Latin Mass in Galway too. Although not everyday as in Limerick.

But for anyone new to the Latin Mass I would recommend starting with Sundays with either this Institute or the high Sunday Mass in Saint Kevin's Dublin.

I don't know the Dublin Mass so well - but the Sunday Masses by the Institute are very, very uplifting and insipring indeed for me.

Link here for the Institute of Christ the King in Ireland: http://institute-christ-king.ie

joseph brand

Doc Farrell wrote: »

I'm extremely wary of definitions of who a proper catholic is, or who is genuine or religious or serious. There are layers of hypocrisy and dishonesty in all of us so it's less embarrassing in the long run not to declare who is a better believer. It's easy to be pious on the outside and fairly rotten on the inside. We've had more than enough examples of that.

To go back to the subject of the thread, I've found that tiny chapels and small groups have a much more powerful effect on me then huge churches.

I know exactly what you mean.

Holding a pint, in a very small crowded tent at Electric Picnic a few years ago, listening to great music was much better than the Main Stage and it's vast openness.

lmaopml

I think a really big downfall of Catholic teaching and understanding is what exactly the Mass is and is not, and relating that properly through the Gospel.

It's totally different to a sermon, or homily, etc. Or a feel good ceremony - it's more than 'feel good' entertainment -

I would highly recommend the 'Lambs Supper' by Scott Hahn to anybody who wants to understand our ancient Mass better, it's celebrated world over with so many folk of every nation - and actually reading Scripture too at home, just picking up your Bible, the Psalms are so beautiful, but so too is all the Old Testament, and of course the New Covenant which you are a part of, get to know it - and also spending time alone with Christ in solitude with the real presence in every single Church, we're so lucky - so lucky we pass it by like it's commonplace. Take the time to sit, and not fill your mind but just sit with him. He'll do the rest- begin somewhere.

Leverarchfile

If mass is boring, it's either the Priest's fault, or you're a lukewarm agnostic.

A reverent and Christcentric priest, who prepares well thought out homily, and explains the gospels, the bible, and authentic traditional Catholic teachings will bring the holy sacrifice of the mass alive.

Not some half hearted Priest giving the same monotonous half hearted dumbed down wishy washy safe all inclusive and unchallenging homily each week.

Go to mass in other parishes until you find one. Don't let your faith wither on the vine.

The catechism in schools is so dreadful now, most Catholics have no idea of the reason and explanation of Catholic doctrine and mass.