Damp in ground floor apartment

Shano81

HI,

I know there are lots of thread on dampness and I have had a search on here but can’t find any identical to my problem.

I have a ground floor apartment and I am getting damp in the back bedrooms. There is a balcony above these 2 bedrooms.

I get damp nowhere else in the apartment. It would be on the side of the windows, ceiling, external wall, wardrobe and drawers.

I got 2 specialist damp proofing firms out to look at it last year. One suggested drylining. I know this would not work as someone else in the estate got this done and it made the problem worse apparently.

The other suggested putting in a new ventilation system and vents over all the doors. This has increased the air quality around the apartment (unless I’m imagining it!!), but I am now getting a smell of mould from the wardrobe and drawers again.

A neighbour told me a few weeks ago that he got the builder a few years ago to put a ‘slope’ underneath the slabs on the balcony so that any water that might’ve got underneath the slabs and just stayed sitting there (he reckons this was the problem!), ran off it down a drainpipe straight away. He reckons this cured all their problems (including wardrobes). I don’t know how true this is as hes a bit of a waffler at the best of times.! He got it done during the homebond term though, so I’d have to get another builder to do it if it was the solution! Would this solution make sense to people?

The apartment is well looking after, always aired out,etc. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to solve this permanently?

Or anyone they could recommend to have a look at it for me? (louth/meath/Dublin area)

dpofloinn

I would start by asking the owner of the apartment with the balcony above you if you or your builder could examine the balcony.I have seen numerous balcony's that where not properly sealed and drained that collected water an let it seep down into the apartments beneath

The Concrete Doctor

dpofloinn wrote: »

I would start by asking the owner of the apartment with the balcony above you if you or your builder could examine the balcony.I have seen numerous balcony's that where not properly sealed and drained that collected water an let it seep down into the apartments beneath

That is very sound advise, if the problems are in the general area of the balconies. The most likely reason for your problem is a leak somewhere on those balconies. It could be a tiny fault, usually where the balcony goes into the wall, either on top or on the soffitt. Look for a gap, hole or a fault in the sealant. That would definitely be my starting point also. I would be interested to see if other ground floor apartments have similar problems, in which case it could be a design fault.

Shano81

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

I would be interested to see if other ground floor apartments have similar problems, in which case it could be a design fault.

Yes, practically every ground floor apartment in the estate has the same problem!

Thanks for the advise. I am getting the company that put in the ventilation unit in for me to come back out and have another look as the new ventilation system they put in hasn’t resolved the problem.

Menas

Normally in an apartment complex the buildings and common areas are owned by a company of which you are a shareholder. The lease you have with the management company would prohibit you working on the external walls, but the reverse if this is that the management company is responsibile for maintanence and righting any issues.
If this is the case with you then I would contact the management company in writing and tell them of the issue. If external work is needed the company would need to get this looked after, indeed their insurance may cover it.

The Concrete Doctor

Shano81 wrote: »

Yes, practically every ground floor apartment in the estate has the same problem!

Thanks for the advise. I am getting the company that put in the ventilation unit in for me to come back out and have another look as the new ventilation system they put in hasn’t resolved the problem.

I would be interested to know how old these apartments are. Is the builder still around? Given that all of the apartments have the same problem, it is likely to be either a fault with the design or even more likely, the builder left out some design element or cut corners. It may not be too difficult, or expensive to fix but you really have to get the right type of company to look at it. Definitely not a job for a handyman. What about the original design team, can you contact them?

Shano81

The apartments are probably 13 years old or so.

The above poster is correct in that the balcony is part of the commons areas

The management company have been made well aware of the problems over the last few years but weren’t very helpful at all in getting it resolved (they actually got a surveyors report done on another apartment to help get to the bottom of the problems. Nothing came from it though).

I would obviously prefer if they sorted out the problem obviously but they’re not much good.

I have tried my best to get the right type of company to look at it, and would welcome any suggestions?

I had contacted 2 damp specialist companies out for an inspection.

1 had suggested dry lining the rooms. I had heard that someone else in the estate got their room dry lined and that it didn’t sort out the problem.

The other suggested putting in the positive ventilation system, more vents,etc. I got this done, but it has not been a success. Someone from the company is coming out again during the week as they have promised to get to the bottom of it for me and resolve the problem. I just fear that another incorrect solution might be identified!!

The Concrete Doctor

Shano81 wrote: »

The apartments are probably 13 years old or so.

The above poster is correct in that the balcony is part of the commons areas

The management company have been made well aware of the problems over the last few years but weren’t very helpful at all in getting it resolved (they actually got a surveyors report done on another apartment to help get to the bottom of the problems. Nothing came from it though).

I would obviously prefer if they sorted out the problem obviously but they’re not much good.

I have tried my best to get the right type of company to look at it, and would welcome any suggestions?

I had contacted 2 damp specialist companies out for an inspection.

1 had suggested dry lining the rooms. I had heard that someone else in the estate got their room dry lined and that it didn’t sort out the problem.

The other suggested putting in the positive ventilation system, more vents,etc. I got this done, but it has not been a success. Someone from the company is coming out again during the week as they have promised to get to the bottom of it for me and resolve the problem. I just fear that another incorrect solution might be identified!!

You could Email info@lmcltd.ie. They are based in Louth. They could look at it and give an opinion. You must find and cure the source of the problem.

Shano81

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

You could Email info@lmcltd.ie. They are based in Louth. They could look at it and give an opinion. You must find and cure the source of the problem.

Thanks very much for that. Do you have any more information on this company? I can’t seem to find anything on them on the internet. What do they specialize in?, good reputation?, solved similar problems,etc. I’d appreciate any info on them)I appreciate all opinions on this as I need the correct solution this time.

I got the below email from someone in the residents association. At the moment, I have heard of 5 different solutions. 2 I know of haven’t worked for people. (ventilation and drylining). I have my doubts on if improved insulation as suggested below would work when 2 apartments seemed to have got fixed up without touching the insulation

There is a problem – not with ventilation, but with insulation – that we are aware of. The insulation in the ceiling in the bedroom downstairs below where the balcony sits is not deep enough. It was deep enough at the time they were built to meet requirements, but those requirements were inadequate and were raised subsequently but too late for us. If that is the issue, the problem lies with the owner and there is nothing the management company can do.

We have already tried going back to the builders, and through homebond and the bloc insurance and its not covered by any of them since technically they met requirements.

However, we had another situation in my own case. I have a 3-bed duplex and there was damp showing downstairs against the back wall, more so than the ceiling. The rain water was actually getting into the wall cavity and in behind the lead flashing on the balcony. The management company was able to seal up gaps in the balcony wall and behind the lead just using silicone and this seems to have done the trick for the apartment below me. At the very least, I have asked the management company to contact you and arrange for somebody to come out and assess the situation

The Concrete Doctor

Shano81 wrote: »

Thanks very much for that. Do you have any more information on this company? I can’t seem to find anything on them on the internet. What do they specialize in?, good reputation?, solved similar problems,etc. I’d appreciate any info on them)I appreciate all opinions on this as I need the correct solution this time.

I got the below email from someone in the residents association. At the moment, I have heard of 5 different solutions. 2 I know of haven’t worked for people. (ventilation and drylining). I have my doubts on if improved insulation as suggested below would work when 2 apartments seemed to have got fixed up without touching the insulation

There is a problem – not with ventilation, but with insulation – that we are aware of. The insulation in the ceiling in the bedroom downstairs below where the balcony sits is not deep enough. It was deep enough at the time they were built to meet requirements, but those requirements were inadequate and were raised subsequently but too late for us. If that is the issue, the problem lies with the owner and there is nothing the management company can do.

We have already tried going back to the builders, and through homebond and the bloc insurance and its not covered by any of them since technically they met requirements.

However, we had another situation in my own case. I have a 3-bed duplex and there was damp showing downstairs against the back wall, more so than the ceiling. The rain water was actually getting into the wall cavity and in behind the lead flashing on the balcony. The management company was able to seal up gaps in the balcony wall and behind the lead just using silicone and this seems to have done the trick for the apartment below me. At the very least, I have asked the management company to contact you and arrange for somebody to come out and assess the situation

There are a couple of issues here. First of all, insulation will help to prevent condensation. It will not help if your ingress is from an external source. Silicone sealants can be very effective, if they are done properly, around windows, bathroom appliances etc. It may well work here. However I would not blindly recommend any solution without identifying the problem. There seems to be quite a few problems with this building.

I know LMC were waterproofing the port tunnel lately. They are specialists in concrete repair and waterproofing, just the credentials required to assess your problem. Why don't you Email them and talk to them. It should not cost you anything.

Shano81

Thanks for that.

Do you have their full company name please? (want to look up their phone number)

Thanks!

The Concrete Doctor

Shano81 wrote: »

Thanks for that.

Do you have their full company name please? (want to look up their phone number)

Thanks!

If you phone 086 6823377 you will get them

landcrzr

Damp is a symptom typically caused by condensation, an actual leak letting moisture into the building or a leak inside the building (from heating pipes etc).

Drylining a damp wall just covers the symptom, it does not remove the problem.

Condensation happens when warm air contacts a colder surface. Considering you say the problem area is around the ceiling with a balcony above, I suspect cold bridging could be your problem. If the balcony is a concrete one, it is obviously attached to the floor slab above. A good Architect and Builder would usually use something like a Shoeck system to make a thermal break in the structure, many however would not have, Shoeck products are expensive. See here;
http://www.schoeck.co.uk/en_gb/solutions-uk/concrete-to-concrete-120-mm-107

Condensation however can occur due to poor ventilation, the ideal ventilation situation in any room is to have cross ventilation, that is, air enters at one end of the room and leaves at the other end.

If your issue is a leak from the outside, it is due to poor design and detailing or poor workmanship or a combination of the two. Do remember that a builder can only build and get paid for what the Architect designs, poor design and detailing is seldom the builders fault, only poor workmanship. Using a sealant may solve your problem in the short term or even altogether but such sealants are too often used as a bodge instead of a proper solution.

If your issue is an internal leak, obviously you must get it fixed.

I think your best course of action is to properly identify the cause of this dampness first, be wary of guys that take one look at the place and suggest an immediate fix, if the problem is that obvious, you'd have seen it yourself already.

The best advice is unbiased advice, you will only get that from someone you trust, someone that can be vouched for or someone that has nothing further to gain by giving you the advice (a handyman looking for some work will usually suggest the type of work they do as the best solution).

The Concrete Doctor

landcrzr wrote: »

Damp is a symptom typically caused by condensation, an actual leak letting moisture into the building or a leak inside the building (from heating pipes etc).

Drylining a damp wall just covers the symptom, it does not remove the problem.

Condensation happens when warm air contacts a colder surface. Considering you say the problem area is around the ceiling with a balcony above, I suspect cold bridging could be your problem. If the balcony is a concrete one, it is obviously attached to the floor slab above. A good Architect and Builder would usually use something like a Shoeck system to make a thermal break in the structure, many however would not have, Shoeck products are expensive. See here;
http://www.schoeck.co.uk/en_gb/solutions-uk/concrete-to-concrete-120-mm-107

Condensation however can occur due to poor ventilation, the ideal ventilation situation in any room is to have cross ventilation, that is, air enters at one end of the room and leaves at the other end.

If your issue is a leak from the outside, it is due to poor design and detailing or poor workmanship or a combination of the two. Do remember that a builder can only build and get paid for what the Architect designs, poor design and detailing is seldom the builders fault, only poor workmanship. Using a sealant may solve your problem in the short term or even altogether but such sealants are too often used as a bodge instead of a proper solution.

If your issue is an internal leak, obviously you must get it fixed.

I think your best course of action is to properly identify the cause of this dampness first, be wary of guys that take one look at the place and suggest an immediate fix, if the problem is that obvious, you'd have seen it yourself already.

The best advice is unbiased advice, you will only get that from someone you trust, someone that can be vouched for or someone that has nothing further to gain by giving you the advice (a handyman looking for some work will usually suggest the type of work they do as the best solution).

Very good advise. Cold bridging could be the problem, but where balconies are involved I usually find that a design flaw, or the builder taking shotcuts with the waterproofing detail, allowing water to get in, are responsible.

Shano81

I appreciate all the advise on here, thanks to everyone!!

landcrzr wrote: »

Considering you say the problem area is around the ceiling with a balcony above, I suspect cold bridging could be your problem.

To be honest , there hasn’t been too much damp on the ceiling in my case. A small amount, but very little compared to the wall/wardrobes (and it hasn’t reappeared in the last couple of years (I’ve been airing the room out well, keeping windows open as much as I can,etc)

The main problem areas I have is at the side of the windows and in the wardrobes/drawers – and the wall that the wardrobes and drawers are on.

I have someone from the management company coming out to the apartment tomorrow. He said he is an engineer and wants to do readings, have a look and for me to explain the whole history of the problem. Once he has done this tomorrow, he said he will ahev a look at the balcony again.

I have a feeling he is just going to push on the insulation solution (means they wont have to pay to fix it) and then not bother looking at the balcony. I am going to be firm that I want the balcony properly inspected.

Tbh I wouldn’t mind paying for the insulation if I was 100% confident on it solving the problem – but I just cant see it solving my problem?

Landcrzr, would you be able to recommend someone to look at this aswel?

landcrzr

You mention them pushing an insulation solution and say that they won't have to pay for it. Just to be aware, the Irish court system and hence management company agreements tend to treat apartment boundaries of ownership/responsibility as follows;

You own the air inside your apartment and the dirt on the windows outside it, nothing else. I'm not trying to be smart by saying that, it is a laymans summary of what you are responsible for and what your management company is responsible for. If insulation is missing on an external wall and it is to be rectified, it is a management company issue, getting them to do it is another thing though.

You say that there is damp/condensation on the window jambs, this is most likely cold bridging where the wall cavities are closed. Usually 25 mm of insulation with a DPC is put between the inner and outer leaf, this could have been omitted or if rockwool was used, it could have gotten wet somehow. Not a cheap fix though. Is there any issue with mould?

As far as recommending someone to look at it, where are you based? pm me if you want.

Shano81

PM sent re: where exactly I’m based

Re: management companys responsilities. I have been told that the insulation,etc was sufficient legally at time of build (re: ceiling anyway) – but that these requirements were changed after they were built.

Shano81

The management company sent out a surveyor yesterday afternoon.

He was a nice enough chap and wanted to stress that he was a qualified and practicing surveyor rather than just a handyman the management company sent out (like previously!).

Anyway, he did a couple of moisture readings. He stuck it in at the bottom of the skirting boards as it makes a mark and he didn’t want to mark the walls. He said that if there was any ‘leak’ behind the wall it would hit the floor eventually anyway.

The moisture reading showed a result of 8. He said this was quite low and the average house would have a reading of between 6 and 14.

He couldn’t check through the wardrobe as it doesn’t go through laminate but he did it at the skirting right beside it.

He said if there was any leakage behind the wall, it would actually make the wall look a bit yellow and the plaster would eventually get soft (this is what happened to the apartment that had the leakage from the balcony). He saw no signs of that

He said the majority of the problems in the apartments in general is poor ventilation when built and lifestyle living eg drying clothes all over, never opening windows,etc – but he said a couple did have balcony issues.

He was impressed with the ventilation system that we put in.

He said he can only judge on what he sees and he saw no evidence of damp/mould on the walls/windows or from the moisture readings behind them.

His theory on the wardrobe is that the mould mightn’t have been properly killed off in there after the ventilation system was put in. He said even if a cm of mould was missed it would spread with clothes been moved about,etc.

He gave the following advise to kill it properly

1. He said to give it a proper scrub all over with bleach. Not to mix with water. He said to take out as many shelves as possible so that every bit of wardrobe can be done, take out all drawers and do everything (rollers hinges,etc) – we actually hadn’t taken out the drawers the last time sos didn’t kill behind them. He said to scrub corners, sides,etc with a toothbrush so that it gets every bit! He said to leave this sitting for a week
2. The following week, give the wardrobes/drawers a proper wash with water (so that clothes don’t go off colour from bleach) and then dry them all with a cloth (leaving the heat on in room for a couple of hours to help also)
3. Just incase anything was missed, he said to go back a few days later and steam clean the wardrobes and drawers (we have one of these steam cleaners)

As for preventing it from coming back, he said to remember that it’s the only place that can’t be ventilated (ie you cant open a window in it). So just to be careful in general and especially when using the shower beside it (ie keep ensuite door closed afterwards,etc)

He did say that if any damp appears on the wall or window again to ring him immediately (he said not to wipe it down until he sees it himself) and he would come out and assess the source and look into the balcony within a few days.

He said his conclusion (and the report he will be giving to the manager of the management company) was that there were no visual signs of damp on walls/windows,etc and the moisture reading at skirting board was 8. That the place was well ventilated because of the work we got done and aired out regularly. The only problem at present was wardrobes/drawers and that he has given advise to kill this. But that if anything else did appear on walls/windows that I was told to contact him immediately for reassessment!

Thanks for all the advise and opinion on here! Will see how we get on!!