Idea: Port Tunnel transport hub

Chris_5339762

Everyone knows the port tunnel is there, but I find it interesting that it means the M50 is 2.5km line of sight from O'Connell street with lots of land near its exit. The M50 there is also 600m from the current Luas terminus at the O2. Thats really close in the grand scheme of things.

Heres my idea (in rough form). We'll assume CPOs of the nearby yards.



There is also a cargo railway yard here, and the whole thing is a short walk from Docklands station. A bus station could also be put here.

Using the Luas extension you'd then be able to get from the M1, through the port tunnel, park the car, get a Luas into O Connell street probably in about 30 minutes, even at rush hour. That compares very VERY favourably with sitting in traffic through Drumcondra, probably one of the most congested roads in Ireland.

Sort a way of paying a reduced toll at the tunnel and let you park at the multistories. Make them big enough so there wont be a fight at rush hour. Design the whole thing so that it wont have to be knocked if the Eastern bypass is built.

Thoughts? A good idea in theory? Too expensive? Just plain stupid? I think it has a bit of merit.

Cookie_Monster

sort of defeats the purpose of the tunnel, to allow port traffic to avoid getting blocked up in traffic jams. putting that much traffic through the tunnel and then straight into car parks would jam everything up IMO.

Still it's something a bit different and would probably work quite well if done correctly.

P_1

A slight problem with that Idea is that the land you've identified for CPOing to use as MS car parks is currently mostly occupied by the East Point business park (a place where there are a hell of a lot of jobs)

For example, I think Yahoo are based in the western site you've identified.

wicklowwonder

P_1 wrote: »

A slight problem with that Idea is that the land you've identified for CPOing to use as MS car parks is currently mostly occupied by the East Point business park (a place where there are a hell of a lot of jobs)

For example, I think Yahoo are based in the western site you've identified.

I think East Point park is north of the blue line he has drawn. The site on East Wall Rd. left of pink line is as far as I know is an old CRH yard and the site on the right is a park for the port I think.

Dublin Port have plans for both spaces based on their 30 year plan released in the last year IIRC.

I'll ask a starter question or two - is there a need for what would be several thousand more car parking spaces? And should they be provided?

P_1

It could work if you were to apply a 'congestion charge' for the city center or severely restrict the number of parking spaces available in the city center.

It would be pretty unfair on people coming from the south of the city though

triple-M

P_1 wrote: »

It could work if you were to apply a 'congestion charge' for the city center or severely restrict the number of parking spaces available in the city center.

It would be pretty unfair on people coming from the south of the city though

yeah but they got two luas lines to go to town,northsiders dont

bk

Dónal wrote: »

I'll ask a starter question or two - is there a need for what would be several thousand more car parking spaces? And should they be provided?

Well if this car park was opened in return for most of the on street in the city center being removed and the car parks around Drury St closed so these streets could be pedestrianised, then it could be well worth it.

Also the Luas could be extended into East Point Business Park.

Mr Simpson

Would you not be better off putting a P&R at the M50 with buses through the Port Tunnel.

Also the route you propose for the Luas Extension may not be possible, there are building foundations running through the square at the o2.

wicklowwonder

MarkMc wrote: »

Would you not be better off putting a P&R at the M50 with buses through the Port Tunnel.

Also the route you propose for the Luas Extension may not be possible, there are building foundations running through the square at the o2.

That is Crosbie's skyscraper dream. If Nama owns it they might have more sense. That Luas extension is a bit ridiculous anyway it stops short of both East Point (1000s of jobs) and the ferry port (100s of tourists). It should go to one or the other. I reckon more people use either of these places a year than the O2.

Dravokivich

Why would someone pay a premium to use a tunnel to drive just outside of town using the tunnel, pay for parking, then pay again to travel on the Luas?

Chris_5339762

Dónal wrote: »

Dublin Port have plans for both spaces based on their 30 year plan released in the last year IIRC.

I'll ask a starter question or two - is there a need for what would be several thousand more car parking spaces? And should they be provided?

I'd say yes... as this would be a P&R that just happens to be closer to the city center than all the current ones.

MarkMc wrote: »

Would you not be better off putting a P&R at the M50 with buses through the Port Tunnel.

Also the route you propose for the Luas Extension may not be possible, there are building foundations running through the square at the o2.

In theory yes, but again the benefit of this is that you get really close to the city center by car (the fastest way) and then hop onto the Luas to get into town which will give access to a good chunk of the city once BXD is built. Busing through the Port Tunnel I dont think will attract as many commuters as drive + Luas. Also the capacity of the Luas is way higher.

The route is only crayons on an envelope, I have no idea what the actual lay of the land there is

Dravokivich wrote: »

Why would someone pay a premium to use a tunnel to drive just outside of town using the tunnel, pay for parking, then pay again to travel on the Luas?

This could be solved by integrated ticketing of some sort... a combined tunnel/parking/Luas fee that isn't too high. Getting those systems to work together SHOULD be possible. It just needs a group of level headed people to sit down and sort it out.



And by all means, extend the Luas further. I have no idea how many jobs there are east of my proposed terminus.

Dravokivich

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

This could be solved by integrated ticketing of some sort... a combined tunnel/parking/Luas fee that isn't too high. Getting those systems to work together SHOULD be possible. It just needs a group of level headed people to sit down and sort it out.

You're just adding more overheads, assuming technology can just be pushed out to provide what you are looking for.

But it doesn't address the point I was making. This would be aimed primarily at commuters who go in and out of town for work. So what would be the point in looking for them to go 80% - 90% of their journey by driving in paying 2 premiums on that (expensive for the tunnel, parking fees in multistory carparkds) and the remainder with public transport? It should be the other way around.

Losty Dublin

I can see the logic but it's cost benefit is going to be woeful given it's proximity to the city and the cost of a LUAS extension. It would be more practical to build such a park and ride close to the DART line somewhere around Clongriffin. The DART moves people beyond the Liffey, it links up to the LUAS as well as other bus routes and it's already there. Park and Ride works by getting people into town via a transport link, not into town to a link.

LivelineDipso

What stop there? Run the Red Line though the tunnel and on to the airport.

Stonewolf

Having a massive P&R almost in town isn't the way P&R should work. Also the PT is for trucks and busses which is why it's a tenner for cars, about the only real use for it privately speaking is when carpooling (I use it about once a month to get me and 5 friends out of town to a club event for instance).

You would get much better effect from simply building 3 or 4 levels of multistory on top of every train station between the M50 and the end of the short hop zone and making them dirt cheap/free to park in if you have a train ticket. That way people can use their cars in the most effective way to get out of their massive, sprawling misbuilt complexes and down to the train station from where they get the most efficient mode for most of the distance and avoid clogging up more central areas.

AndyP

Stonewolf wrote: »

Having a massive P&R almost in town isn't the way P&R should work. Also the PT is for trucks and busses which is why it's a tenner for cars, .

Its only €10 between 7 and 10am inbound and 4 and 7pm outbound. €3 all other times and weekends and it does get a lot of private traffic using it in these times.

paddyland

The Port Tunnel is probably the single, only thing in the whole of Dublin that works well, and works exactly to a design specification.

Unsurprisingly, you get the usual crowd coming out with grand suggestions to bugger the whole thing up, out of a purely selfish motive to suit themselves at the expense of everyone else. Even Joe Duffy, a Clontarf resident, wants the tunnel opened up to cars, and the trucks charged instead!

All the problems of Dublin stem from too many people driving single occupancy cars into a congested and mediaeval street network that cannot cope with the numbers that want to fill it. In no way will building MORE car parks, and channelling MORE cars into this melée contribute any good to anyone, for the greater good.

We need to get rid of a huge amount of private cars, and get more people onto public transport. Public transport needs to be beefed up to do so, and yet it cannot, specifically because of the volume of private motoring. A catch-22 situation. It will take a genius to figure out how to swing the balance in favour of more public transport. Hair brained ideas like the OP are a step in completely the wrong direction.

ezra_pound

AndyP wrote: »

Its only €10 between 7 and 10am inbound and 4 and 7pm outbound. €3 all other times and weekends and it does get a lot of private traffic using it in these times.

Exactly. It's a Tenner at rush hour.

ezra_pound

paddyland wrote: »

The Port Tunnel is probably the single, only thing in the whole of Dublin that works well, and works exactly to a design specification.

Unsurprisingly, you get the usual crowd coming out with grand suggestions to bugger the whole thing up, out of a purely selfish motive to suit themselves at the expense of everyone else. Even Joe Duffy, a Clontarf resident, wants the tunnel opened up to cars, and the trucks charged instead!

All the problems of Dublin stem from too many people driving single occupancy cars into a congested and mediaeval street network that cannot cope with the numbers that want to fill it. In no way will building MORE car parks, and channelling MORE cars into this melée contribute any good to anyone, for the greater good.

We need to get rid of a huge amount of private cars, and get more people onto public transport. Public transport needs to be beefed up to do so, and yet it cannot, specifically because of the volume of private motoring. A catch-22 situation. It will take a genius to figure out how to swing the balance in favour of more public transport. Hair brained ideas like the OP are a step in completely the wrong direction.

Don't forget the bicycle!

Chris_5339762

paddyland wrote: »

out of a purely selfish motive to suit themselves at the expense of everyone else.

Hair brained ideas like the OP are a step in completely the wrong direction.

I'll have you know I live in Rathfarnham and this would not benefit me in the slightest.

Cool Mo D

If there was going to be a transport hub for Dublin, it should be a local bus terminal at Hawkins House, when it is redeveloped.

It would integrate with the DART at Tara street, and all Dublin bus services currently terminating in the city centre could be moved there, as well as Bus Eireann commuter, Swords Express type services - the frequent, cross city bus services would stay as they are.

It would allow easy interchange for lots of DART and bus services, and is not far from the Luas, and the site is large enough to have planty of space for a bus terminal, as well as freeing up some space around Busaras.

If the site was developed properly, we could have something like the Kampi Centre in Helisinki.

bk

Excellent idea Cool Mo D, Dublin badly needs such a transport hub.

It should include all Bus Eireann Express and commuter services, swords express and private operators intercity services.

Excellent location, close to the center of town, close to the new Marlborough St bridge, DART and Luas. The only thing I wonder is if the space might be too small for all the buses that would want to use it.

Mr Simpson

I think the space may be a bit small. But what about the space behind Connolly where their car park is. Access to Dart, Luas, Rail, Port Tunnel

P_1

MarkMc wrote: »

I think the space may be a bit small. But what about the space behind Connolly where their car park is. Access to Dart, Luas, Rail, Port Tunnel

The site seems to be big enough, seems slightly bigger than Busaras:

bk

Connolly Station has plenty of space, but it is slightly less attractive location. While well integrated with DART, Commuter and Luas, it is a little far from the O'Connell St axis from where many people want to go and from where most Dublin Bus services operates.

For instance I think it is one of the reasons why the Aircoach to Cork service is more popular then the GoBE service. Aircoach operate too and from O'Connell St area, while GoBE use Busaras.

If the new station was at Connelly I'm not sure any of the private operators would opt to move there, unless they were forced to.

P_1

bk wrote: »

Connolly Station has plenty of space, but it is slightly less attractive location. While well integrated with DART, Commuter and Luas, it is a little far from the O'Connell St axis from where many people want to go and from where most Dublin Bus services operates.

For instance I think it is one of the reasons why the Aircoach to Cork service is more popular then the GoBE service. Aircoach operate too and from O'Connell St area, while GoBE use Busaras.

If the new station was at Connelly I'm not sure any of the private operators would opt to move there, unless they were forced to.

That's a very good point actually.

It doesn't matter how well integrated a site is with all other transport options, if it's nowhere near people's intended destination it won't be as attractive as it should.

Cool Mo D

bk wrote: »

Excellent location, close to the center of town, close to the new Marlborough St bridge, DART and Luas. The only thing I wonder is if the space might be too small for all the buses that would want to use it.

I think if the development includes the adjoining monstrosities Apollo House and College House there would be plenty of room. There's also plenty of empty units along Tara street that could be added in to the regeneration.

The sites are mostly either empty, or owned by the Government or semi-states, so it should be very possible to do.

admiralofthefleet

the massive public transport deficit on the northside needs to be addressed asap as well

ezra_pound

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

the massive public transport deficit on the northside needs to be addressed asap as well

I think thats a Dublin problem rather than Northside issue.

Cookie_Monster

the obvious location IMO is O'Connell st. simply close it to traffic and have 45 degree bus bays along it for all services, run in stop, run out. will make it far more pedestrian friendly too.
I = road lane
/ = bus bay
median down the middle for the Luas if ever built.

NB SB
I/I I/I
I/I I/I
I/I I/I
I/I I/I
I/I I/I

ezra_pound

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the obvious location IMO is O'Connell st. simply close it to traffic and have 45 degree bus bays along it for all services, run in stop, run out. will make it far more pedestrian friendly too.
I = road lane
/ = bus bay
median down the middle for the Luas if ever built.

NB SB
I/I I/I
I/I I/I
I/I I/I
I/I I/I
I/I I/I

Cool. I think Theres a similar plan for the north quays (without the bus Bays). As in close north quays off to motor cars abs turn it into bus and cycle lanes as well as large pedestrian walkway with cafes. Would it be possible to do both I wonder?

Chris_5339762

A massive improvement in public transport (probably Luas) has to happen before we can close off the North Quays. O'Connell street I'm not quite familiar with enough to say how much trouble there would be if it was closed to cars.

monument

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

A massive improvement in public transport (probably Luas) has to happen before we can close off the North Quays. O'Connell street I'm not quite familiar with enough to say how much trouble there would be if it was closed to cars.

I can't agree.

The importance of car use to the city centre is overplayed way too much.

And the traffic on the quays can be handled in diffrent ways.

loyatemu

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the obvious location IMO is O'Connell st. simply close it to traffic and have 45 degree bus bays along it for all services, run in stop, run out. will make it far more pedestrian friendly too.
I = road lane
/ = bus bay
median down the middle for the Luas if ever built.

NB SB
I/I I/I
I/I I/I
I/I I/I
I/I I/I
I/I I/I

O'Connell St. for all its faults, is the city's main street and tourism showpiece. I wouldn't be in favour of turning it into a glorified bus garage - also the council have been trying to reduce the number of buses using it for decades.