CLANCY SURNAME WITH ARMSTRONG MOTHER

mananan

Hello Boards, first time here. I have been to the archives in Dublin and have come to a dead end! My father James Clancy was fostered in 1938. His Parents married the following year and had 3 children- Brian, Eithne and Desmond. His mothers maiden name was Armstrong. I can find the birth details confirming these details but I cannot trace the 3 siblings. If anyone knows a Clancy who has the names above and whos mother maiden name was Armstrong please contact me. My father is 73 and I would love to re-unite him with his lost siblings. It would be a great start to the year for him and for his extended family.
Here's hoping!!:)

Coolnabacky1873

Some suggestions you may or may not have utilized:

You said you know the birth details for the siblings so I presume you know the county, and area within.

At least one of the sons, Brian or Desmond, might have stayed local when they grew up, so you could search the yearly electoral registers for that area. NLI and relevant county library will have them.

If they were born in the late 30s/early 40s then they would be in their 70s by now. Some of the siblings may have already passed away so you could try the Irish Times online for a death notice search or http://irishnewsarchive.com/ for a same search in Irish Independent or local papers.

Again, if they passed away you can try interment.net or findagrave.com for graveyard headstone information.

Longs shots but you never know.

ifconfig

There are 12 persons named James Clancy on the 1939-40 Dublin electoral register.

http://www.dublinheritage.ie/electoral/search.php

Do you know the rough address ?
The electoral register doesn't reveal too much (just names of adults eligible for voting and address).
Armstrong is not an uncommon name but you might find Armstrongs in the same general area of Dublin who match the addresses of the various James Clancy entries.
I have found that older marriages tended to happen between closer neighbours than would be the case today.
WWII years, though are not that far away and probably by then those sort of customs were less common and people from further afield within the city married through work contacts as opposed to living close to their eventual marriage partner.

I agree with Coolnabacky regarding newspaper archives and death notices.
Most newspaper archives are behind a paywall but are reasonably priced for 24 hour access.

Armstrong is originally a Scottish name and some may have come via Northern Ireland.
Some Armstrongs may have gained their surname via anglicisation of a not too dissimilar sounding Gaelic root.
Knowing where a surname is most common can be useful when trying to trace earlier relatives in the tree, I find.
Clancy is a much more widely spread surname across the country Galway/Leitrim/Sligo/Offaly/Midlands even Cork and Dublin, of course.

ifconfig

This is probably a bit academic in terms of deep ancestry in Ireland but interesting to see that Armstrong (especially if RC and not COI, Presbyterian) may have arisen from this

Ó Labhradha / Mac Thréinfhir (Lowery, Lowrie, Lavery, O'Lavery, Armstrong)

Source :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_name
See also http://www.libraryireland.com/names/mact/mac-threinfhir.php

I suspect the original source is O'Hart's pedigrees.
Note also that Clancy is cited as arising from the anglicisation of Mac Fhlannchaidh !
From O'Hart's pedigree notes: (Flanchaidh ("flan" Irish, red complexioned; "caidh" chaste): his son; a quo MacFlanchaidhe)

With genealogy if you come up against a brick wall with recent family history I find it good to take a detour to look at the origins of surnames in the family tree. It reveals potential deeper ancestry.
Eventually some information comes together on the family history.
In terms of your more recent family history have the GRO given any reason why they cannot, for example, locate the marriage of James Clancy and his wife nee Armstrong ?
Or did you get that record but are having trouble tracing earlier generations (eg lack of father's names of bride or groom and rough addresses ?)

If you didn't get their marriage cert have you considered checking Ancestry.com, familyseach.org, etc to see if there are civil marriage records for US, UK, etc - in case they married outside this state ?

pinkypinky

You don't mention what part of the country they were from but from my checks below, I presume they are likely to be still in Dublin.

Have you looked at familysearch: Eithne Clancy wouldn't be a common name. There's 4 listings, 3 are births, none with an Armstrong mother but one is a death in 1943 in Dublin of a one year old with that name.

https://familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Aeithne~%20%2Bsurname%3Aclancy~&collection_id=1408347

I also searched an anglised version: Ethna and came up what I presume is your aunt's birth in Dublin North in 1942.
https://familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Aethna~%20%2Bsurname%3Aclancy~&collection_id=1408347

No suitable marriages with that name but given year of birth, if she didn't die young, then she probably married after the 1958 familysearch cut-off date.

Desmond Clancy - 1945 birth details on familysearch index:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F1CP-L2P

Brian Clancy - 1940 birth details:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F1HH-RW1

mananan

Wow! I wasnt expecting such a quick reply and such great help. Thank you everyone who replied. My father was born in Dublin- correct. What has stumped me is that on his birth certificate it says his parents are married! They were not married untill the following year. Also my fathers parents religion was Church of Ireland I will do some searching with the above information and I will keep you all updated on the search. Go raigh mile, mile maith agaibh go leir.

Kieran

mananan

On my fathers birth certificate the address is down as Herbert Place Dublin 2. His fathers occupations on his birth cert was as working as a clerk for Dublin City Council. On the voting listing the following year his parents address was in Cole Lane - just off Moore Streeet and his occupation was a shopkeeper... His parents must have bought a shop of some type. The Illac Centre is now where Cole Lane was! Pinky your advice is priceless- thanks. My quest begins again!

Kieran

ifconfig

I wish you the very best of luck with locating your dad's siblings.
One thing to bear in mind (I'm sure you already have) is if there are protocols about finding half-brothers or biological brothers when the searching sibling has been raised by another family.

A very close friend of mine (born in 1960s) did such a trace but , if I recall he went through the adoption board as (in his case) he was being reunited with his birth mother.
Similar case - parents put him up for adoption but were married shortly after and went on to have more children (so full biological siblings).
If I recall it all had to be done with mutual consent of his birth mother and the adoption organisation finding the relevant documents that showed his birth mother had made enquiries.
There were several stages to the re-uniting with his mother, etc.
In this case it may be the case that one or both biological parents of your father are still alive and so this can complicate things.

Just in terms of COI Clancys (going back to genealogical searches) - there are only a small handful of COI Clancys in Dublin in both 1901 and 1911 census.
You can use search options (which I'm sure you already know) to narrow searches on a surname and you can filter based on enumerated religion.
There is also a family based in Grangegorman area of Dublin with a child aged 2 in 1911 named James Clancy.
He would have passed his 100th birthday a few years ago so less likely to be still alive.
That family are listed as being Church of England and I suspect this is because the father (Thomas Clancy) was listed as having been born in Scotland before immigration to Ireland.

Do you know your grandfather's first name.
This will help.

Coolnabacky1873

Glasnevin Trust has a monster pay-for-records database of burials for some different Dublin cemeteries.

Mongarra

Might be best to steer clear of the Armstrong side. We'll know more after Oprah tonight!

mananan

Thanks Guys. Ifconfig- my father was not adopted- he was fostered in 1938. Tracing foster parents is not as easy as tracing adoption parents. I dont think there even was adoption back in 1938? Are most of the graveyards in Ireland- Catholic? Or were people from different religions buried in these graveyards? In trying to trace the siblings in the graveyards I need to know the date of their death- if they are dead? Well I now know that his sister Eithne only liver to be 1- thanks Pinky.
Off I go again.

ifconfig

A more celebrated Armstrong apparently had Clogher/Tyrone roots (and quite probably Scotland before that)

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Distant-Irish-relatives-mourn-moonwalker-Neil-Armstrong-167530445.html

ifconfig

mananan wrote: »

Thanks Guys. Ifconfig- my father was not adopted- he was fostered in 1938. Tracing foster parents is not as easy as tracing adoption parents. I dont think there even was adoption back in 1938? Are most of the graveyards in Ireland- Catholic? Or were people from different religions buried in these graveyards? In trying to trace the siblings in the graveyards I need to know the date of their death- if they are dead? Well I now know that his sister Eithne only liver to be 1- thanks Pinky.
Off I go again.

mananan :

I think Glasnevin was traditionally more Catholic than Mount Jerome on the South of Dublin.

http://www.dublincity.ie/RecreationandCulture/libraries/Heritage%20and%20History/Family%20History/Pages/mount_jerome_records.aspx

also
http://www.mountjerome.ie/?content=history

I've heard anecdotes and something relatively recently to suggest that there was a strong preference for Protestant people to get buried in Mount Jerome versus Glasnevin, in particular if living in Dublin. There were other smaller cemeteries which were mixed.

Certainly for older records, burial records were more sparse for RC deaths compared to COI/Protestant denominations.
So, parish burial registers in various COI churches may be another option.
Irish Times also would culturally have been more likely (than say Irish Independent or Irish Press) for recording any family deaths for Protestant denominations (although, not exclusively - of course!)

RCBL is another source for BMD records for COI:

See :
http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/trace-ancestors.html

pinkypinky

mananan wrote: »

Well I now know that his sister Eithne only liver to be 1- thanks Pinky.
Off I go again.

Don't take the index as definite. You should get the death cert to be sure. The dates don't quite match up.

mananan

Thanks Pinky. I will definately check that out and get papers. Mount Jerome sounds like a good start. Yer all a great help. Thanks.

matthew j stewart

Hi Mananan, I think I know of the family you are talking about. Your father's mother was called Dorothy, or Dorrie, Armstrong and I understand she died in labour when giving birth to Desmond. Dorrie was my grandfather's sister. As I understand it, after Dorrie's death your grandfather emigrated to Australia with the family. We don't know what became of the children as contact was lost, but we have tried looking for Dorrie's family over the years without success, so I am delighted to have found your post. I am happy to share any other information I have that may be of interest to you. Hope to hear from you soon!

matthew j stewart

Sorry, in my excitement at seeing your post I got confused between Armstrong sisters. Your father's mother was Margaret (Peggy) Armstrong and not Dorrie, who was her younger sister.