PhD: Too much too young . . .

LegacyUser

Hello everyone,

Hopefully someone could give me advice, as I'm beginning to feel a bit out of my depth.

I have a hons degree and I'm currently doing a dip. My current supervisor (who I get on very well with) is quite keen for me to continue on to a PhD working on one of her projects starting in October. She reckons I will be a good match as I really enjoy the subject matter and I have a great work ethic. To be honest, when she told me I was incredibly flattered and agreed immediately. She has already okayed it with my department head and everything (so it’s a sure thing).

All sounds good on paper, right? But here’s the thing that has been niggling me. I’m 22 and will just be turning 23 before I begin my PhD studies. My supervisor is aware of this and doesn’t see it as a problem – in fact she reckons my youth will be a great addition to the team due to my enthusiasm for the work.

I‘m however worried over a number of things.
1) Although I haven’t explicitly met the people working on her project, I know the youngest of them would be 28/29ish. Thus, I’m afraid that I will be isolated from everyone else and lonely because I am so young and have minimal life experiences (after school I went straight into my degree, then straight into my diploma and now I will be going straight into my PhD).
2) Pretty much everyone from my degree class is on a year out before deciding what they want to do. Some are travelling, some working, etc. I’m afraid that I’ll be wasting the best years of my youth (won’t be graduating until I’m 27!) reading and researching and won’t have time for a social life, etc.
3) Now I was told that I will be travelling to conferences etc., but I’m afraid that I’ll be working all the time and have no time off for myself.
4) I’m afraid that because I’m so young that my work won’t be taken seriously.

My degree was in a scientific area and not very specialised, so worth pretty much nothing to me as it stands in terms of employment opportunities and requires postgraduate study anyway. I had intended of doing a PhD at some stage, after a year or two of travelling and work, I just never expected that an opportunity would have presented itself so soon.

I’m flat out broke and have no job. So if I wanted to travel I would need to get a job in a shop, etc. and work for a year or two and save (a venture that would be completely unrelated to my education that I have worked hard for so far, and tbh not something I’d really want to do). But by doing the PhD I will have funding.

I have vented my fears to my friends and family who are nothing but proud of me and say I would be mad to walk away from this - So I basically internalised my fears. My supervisor is very supportive of me as it stands and I’m sure will continue to be so I have no worries on that front.

I don’t know anyone else doing a PhD at my age (although I’m sure there are a few). I know I shouldn't complain, I‘m very fortunate with the position I’m in at the moment and that it is nice to know that I will have my life figured out for the next 4 years but I’m afraid that I will be restricted (if that makes sense).


Hopefully someone can advise me
Toomuchtooyoung

looksee

OP, I entirely see your problem, and you have a hard decision to make.

Once you could leave school and get into a job and work your way up, then it became essential to have leaving cert to do anything. Then a degree became the norm, now its a Masters and then a PhD in order to get work. The situation has got very silly, what happens after the PhD?

I agree with you, a PhD should reflect some life experience, and some career experience, not just an academic exercise. I can appreciate that you would see your PhD as 'hollow' if you feel you have done it just as a follow on from your Masters. You hardly know what your field is at this stage, much less publishing papers on it.

Sadly, it has to be your decision. I would say, go with your gut instinct and go out into the world for a bit, but at the same time there is a great temptation to be offered another four years of 'employment'.

After that though? Businesses look for experience, is a PhD without experience any better than a Masters without experience? Would you be both academically overqualified and without the practical experience that would make you employable in industry?

I don't know, I am just asking questions, no doubt there are people better qualified to answer than I am. I can only say good luck with your career and I wish you well.

judgefudge

Hey OP.

I'm in my second year of a phd in science, I am 24. I was just 23 starting my phd and I will be 27 finishing. So I hope my perspective helps.

What I've learned so far is that it you are not 100% committed/interested in a phd it can be a long hard road to go. I love my area but it is not easy, it is constant work and pressure and if there's a part of you that thinks "I wish I had taken a year out" you might find it really tough.

On the other hand, I'm not sure where you get the idea that 23 is too young. In my chosen phd programme many people are my age. Many are older too but there's no "right age" to do a phd. Older people who have worked in industry and done masters do have the advantage over younger people in that they have experience. But if you have support and passion for the subject you will be fine!

It is a great opportunity. And I think you need to bear in mind that taking a year out might not necessarily be what you expect it to be. Sitting around looking for a job and possibly travelling a little shouldn't in my eyes be considered "life experience". A phd is bloody hard work and by the end of it you will certainly have life experience. And you'll only be 27!

Merkin

My OH is a Scientist (older than you OP) and has just two months left of an incredibly specialized and full on researched PhD (just had a paper published....go Mr. Merkin!) Anyway, I can categorically tell you that a PhD requires dedication, maturity and an incredible amount of tenacity, it really is something that you have to want to do as it if a hard slog and you will have times when you doubt yourself and your ability to complete it.

However there is no optimum time and age when you should do it, I think if an opportunity presents itself to be part of a good research team and funding is available then you should go for it. It can sometimes be hard to leave full-time education and go back to it but likewise it can make a person feel jaded to have spent years with your head in the books and no respite. All I can say is if the one main factor holding you back is your age then don't let it, grab the opportunity and go for it.

P. Breathnach

judgefudge wrote: »

... Sitting around looking for a job and possibly travelling a little shouldn't in my eyes be considered "life experience"....

Well, it is an experience - but not one that I think should necessarily be valued very highly. Many people have had satisfactory lives without ever having taken a year out.

OP, one thing that strikes me is that you see a big gap between yourself and people who are in their late twenties. Must your life be lived among your close age peers?

While a PhD is a major commitment, it does not close you off from the world. You should still have time to socialise outside the academic environment, and to travel a bit if that is your wont.

I don't think you need worry about not being taken seriously in your field. It is unusual for somebody in the first year or two of a PhD to take a lead role in publishing or speaking on the material. Somewhere along the line you should become a leading authority on your niche, and you should be taken seriously because you know more than anybody else in the area of your specialisation. Your authority will come from expertise, and not from age.

Are your concerns real and rational? Starting into a PhD is a big step. I wonder if you have cold feet, and are casting around for rationalisations of your trepidation.

token56

You are doing the right thing by thinking long and hard about this and whether its the right choice for you, and what you really want to do.

Like you would be I started my PhD just turning 23 and I'd echo the comments of the poster above that this is not an uncommon age to be starting, in fact where I am the majority of PhD candidates starting are around this age coming straight in from a degree or masters. But obviously age is all relative and you would be young in the group you would be working with. But I wouldn't let this be a sticking point for you and particularly your worry about your work be taking seriously. It shouldn't be a problem because I'm sure there are a number of people your age publishing work right now in your area.

I think you're biggest problem is whether or not you really want to do and if getting life experience be starting the journey would be a better option. Because it is a long journey that will have ups and downs, almost every PhD student would say this. It really has to be something you have to want to do and for the right reasons. Because you love the area, because you love doing research, etc. Personally I went in believing I was doing it for the right reasons but I have struggled, massively, and I'm actually coming back from a complete break of 3 months to make a final push and finish up. In hindsight doing the PhD for me was probably a mistake but I'm in an awkward position where I fell I'm in too far to give up and I generally hate giving up/quitting on anything anyway, particularly something like this.

But thats just me and a PhD is a very personal thing in my opinion. Any funded PhD opportunity is a great opportunity just make sure its the right thing for you at the right time. The area you're going to be working in, the team you will be working with, the facilities you will have, is right for you. Because you will gain life experiences from it if you choose to do it and as much as it will be hard work, it will be enjoyable if you are doing it for the right reasons.

Whatever you decide to do, all the best.

LegacyUser

This is a hard decision to make OP.

I started my PhD when I was younger than you straight from degree. It's not too young at all. If you go and get a job you will be working with people of all ages too. In my area most people are older when starting but its not uncommon for people to come straight from degree.

Like you I was in a science area, and my PhD followed on from my final year research. I was very flattered and almost immediately agreed. A fully funded PhD would have been hard to turn down, not that I ever really considered it.

5 years on I'm writing up. It is and has been a very very difficult and solitary time. In hindsight I didn't have a passion for my topic or for research in general. Make sure you have this before you start. Throughout my 5 years I've wished that I had taken some time to travel etc between my undergrad and PhD. Time to basically have fun. At the moment my life is on hold. I have put many things on the long finger than I will need to sort out after I finish, financially, socially, emotionally, health wise. I've felt guilty for basically 5 years not only whenever I take holidays, nights out etc but all of the time! Hopefully I will come out with a PhD, please god! Even though thats never a certainty! But as far as I can see I will technically come out with no real world experience. The way I feel now is that my peers from undergrad and school have passed me out and I will never catch up. I have good supervisors which is a good thing. A bad supervisor could be your worst nightmare.

If you have a great passion for your research, have a desire to stay in research as a career and have your sights set on possibly becoming an academic then definitely seriously think about going for it. Dont worry about your age and in these times a funded PhD may not be on offer this time next year. In my eyes and in reality most likely, a well chosen masters degree is probably as good if you want to end up in industry etc. A PhD is only for those intent on research.

I don't like my situation at the moment so I am somewhat bitter towards the idea of a PhD. Truthfully I'm an example of a bad PhD student but like the poster above says, I've invested too much of my life in it now to come away with nothing. If you don't go into it for the right reasons then I'm what you could become. I know I sound quite dramatic but from experience this seems to be an age old story in the world of postgrads.

There are many many many people who have enjoyed the challenges presented by their PhDs and have completely them successfully in appropriate time frames. But its not for everyone.


I wish you all the best in your decision and your future career!

Ando's Saggy Bottom

I turned down the chance of a PhD around a year ago and looking back I'm glad I did. I'm a little older than you OP. It would have meant putting my whole life on hold. I did a Masters and did a reasonably interesting topic for my thesis that the pHd would have expanded on. But while I found the topic interesting it wasn't that interesting that I'd put my whole life on hold for 5 years for it. Life has since opened up in many other ways which simply wouldn't have been possible with the committment of a PhD. I also got to meet a lot of people doing PhD's whil doing my Masters and the one who did really well were the ones who had a huge passion for the topic, to the point almost of obssession. Its incredibly challenging and if you're not 100% invested it could be an absolute nightmare.

In conclusion its not for anyone to say to you to do it or not to. Wht I would say is only do it if you're 100% committed. Your concerns aabsolutely valid and you are doing the right thing to be considering them so carefully before committing. i think you should take these concerns to your prospective supervisor and talk them through carefully. You are not being unreasonable to be taking your time over this massive decision. if you are being offered a funded PhD in this day and age then you have obviously impressed people with your work ethic, intelligence and ability. These are traits you can use to your advantage in the wider world and you are obviously sitting on a good mark in your current studies. You have options. If a PhD is on the table now, it would most likely still be a runner in the future if you do choose to take some time to yourself or get a job.

Best of luck, its a tough decision.

LegacyUser

Hiya.

Current PhD student. 2nd year.

I was 25 starting, after taking three years to go work for a while after my degree, and a year to do an M.Sc.

The years working were great. The money was great. The people were great. It was a very good time. In the darker times I do miss it.

Had I gone straight into the PhD I would have been 21 starting it. I don't regret not doing it straight away, but I didn't have the passion or work ethic to be successful back then.

My labs PhD students are a mix of people like me (few years out of college first) and fresh-from-undergrads. There's not really an advantage to either. Us older people usually have a specific skill which makes us desireable, the fresh undergrads have usually worked in the lab and have a specific familiarity within our area of interest. These distinctions are only important in that if I have a question, I know who is the person to answer it. You won't really be at a disadvantage because of your youth.

PhD life is tough. It's a lot of pressure. There will, I absolutely guarantee, be times you regret signing up to it. Times you doubt yourself, your ability, your ambition to see it through. They will be hard to get through, even if you love what you do. It's very easy to become bitter and resentful if you don't like it.

It is less social then being an undergrad is. I don't think it's really less social than being a part of the workforce though. You won't always have weekends off, and you won't have 'regular' hours. But you will still have time off. And you'll be a student so your options for spending your time off are pretty varied.

Your concerns are valid. It's something to think hard about. It's the best job I've ever had, there is nothing like the thrill of success, but it's by far the hardest and worst paid. It isn't for everyone.

That said when I have a tough decision to make, I flip a coin. It doesn't matter what the result is,while the coin is spinning I know what I want the result to be. It's a lot easier to know what to do when you know what it is you want to do.

I don't know if any of this is useful to you OP. I don't regret doing mine now but I don't think you're too young for it. The choice is yours, but if you really like the research area and want to get into it long term this is an opportunity.

On the other hand if you really want to go and see the world, this is an opportunity.

The important thing is, this isn't the last chance you'll have to do either of these things though.

Sarn

I don't see your age as being an issue. Back when I did mine, the typical starting age was 21 to 23 and that didn't change much over the years. The majority came straight from their primary degree. Another consideration is that it doesn't have to take five years, friends of mine did it in just over three years, with the average at the time being just over four (lab based). Of course with PhDs having become more structured things might take a bit longer.

If things get too much there is often the option of converting it to an MSc by research. One of our PhD students who had been funded for four years, decided to get out of it with an MSc. It is definitely a big commitment, with many highs and lows.

With regard to the social side of things, I had a great time, but it really depends on where you are based, I was in a fairly big department. Despite many years having passed I'm still good friends with several of those who did theirs at the same time. It's an experience that creates a lasting bond!

woodchuck

Toomuchtooyoung wrote: »

I‘m however worried over a number of things.
1) Although I haven’t explicitly met the people working on her project, I know the youngest of them would be 28/29ish. Thus, I’m afraid that I will be isolated from everyone else and lonely because I am so young and have minimal life experiences (after school I went straight into my degree, then straight into my diploma and now I will be going straight into my PhD).

That's a fear you'd have going into any job; it's not something you can control unfortunately. But the fact that you're all working in the same area would automatically mean you have something in common. Don't focus so much on age.

Toomuchtooyoung wrote: »

2) Pretty much everyone from my degree class is on a year out before deciding what they want to do. Some are travelling, some working, etc. I’m afraid that I’ll be wasting the best years of my youth (won’t be graduating until I’m 27!) reading and researching and won’t have time for a social life, etc.
3) Now I was told that I will be travelling to conferences etc., but I’m afraid that I’ll be working all the time and have no time off for myself.

It really does differ for everyone unfortunately. For some people I know, doing their PhD has involved a lot of socialising, going out, travelling etc. But for others... not so much. This depends on a few factors:
1. Your supervisor. Having a good supervisor is half the battle.
2. It depends on how demanding your work is. For example some aspects of lab work involve a lot of planning to be able to get away at all. And if you do go away it can take a while to get things going again.
3. Your own feelings of guilt. Another posted mentioned this, but it's so true. Research can be very soul destroying and the guilt that you should be doing something all the time really does eat away at you. It was like this for me and I've heard it from others too. It's a very very very hard thing to shake even when you're done... I finished my PhD almost 2 years ago (:eek:) and I'm still fighting an internal battle.

Toomuchtooyoung wrote: »

4) I’m afraid that because I’m so young that my work won’t be taken seriously.

Age really isn't something you should worry about. Like others have said, a lot of people (myself included) start their PhD in their early 20s coming straight from a degree or masters. It's the quality of your work that people will judge; not you.

It's up to you to decide if this is the right decision for you, but don't feel pressured into doing it because of your family or potential supervisor. But if it's something you wanted to do at some stage anyway and you're genuinely interested in the project then you're probably better off going for it now rather than putting it off for another few years. The longer you wait to start the older you'll be when you graduate!

Just some advice if you do go down this route though:
- If you're applying for jobs afterwards, experience is key. I found I wasn't even considered for jobs outside of academia/research until I had some postdoc experience. Just something to be aware of. It can be very very easy to get 'stuck' in academia.
- PUBLISH OR PERISH!!!! Most good supervisors will encourage you to do this anyway, but it can be a long process from starting to a write a paper and actually getting one published. You'll have a much tougher time getting a postdoc afterwards if you don't have any publications. (and like I said; I didn't have any luck with a job outside academia/research until I had postdoc experience)
- If you do a PhD make sure to stick your finger in as many pots as possible to build up your CV as best you can:
- See if you can get involved with teaching (demonstrations, tutorials, mentoring summer students etc).
- If there are any outreach activities or programmes get involved with those, even if it's just helping with an open day or something.
- Submit abstracts to as many conferences as possible (every poster/abstract/presentation is something to add to your CV).
- Look out for travel grants; handy for conference attendance, but you can also start an 'awards' section for your CV which will look impressive.
- Once you're there a while ask your supervisor if you can assist with grant applications (even if it's just proof reading them... it's another thing to fluff up on the CV)


At the end of the day as someone else mentioned; you can always leave with a masters instead of PhD if you decide it's not for you and don't want to stuck out the full 4(?) years. But this isn't a decision to be taken lightly either though. I know some people it has happened to and there is a certain sense of failure associated with it since you start out to get a PhD and 'only' end up with a masters.

The best of luck whatever you decide

LegacyUser

Hello everyone.
thank you thank you thank you for replying - didn't think I'd get such comprehensive responses so quickly!!!

Just an update to my situation (if you can call it that - maybe I'm being a tad bit melodramatic!). So I emailed my supervisor/lecturer asking for a meeting. She mailed that she hopes to arrange a meeting with her present group and collaborators within the next 2 weeks and that I should attend just to get a 'feel' for the team - so that sounds promising! (*I can update on how this goes if anyone is interested*)

Otherwise,i have reflected back on some of the conversations I have had with her date and have noted a few extra points.
1) I was told that my PhD will be pretty structured - but I will also have choice in doing modules or courses/training within the university (or elsewhere) that I think would be relevant to me, my study and my long term career goals. Suppose it's nice to know I have that freedom.
2) I will be on visiting placement in a lab in the states for a while as part of my work which I'm sure will be a good experience. I will also attend many many conferences.
3) My supervisor is incredibly well known in academic and applied circles and assured me that she will provide me with plenty of contacts.

I like how the poster above compared my cold feet to the same feelings one would have when they're starting a new job - that's the kind of analogy I can relate to.

The PhD will be advertised if I refuse it as it is built into their research objectives - thus if I turn it down now, such an opportunity may never present itself again.

I have mulled over my decision in the last few days and I suppose if I was realistic - I'd hate to have come this far (in terms of educational experience) only to receive casual work, as that would be all I would be qualified to do. (And I've had my fair share of casual work the good and the not so good!!).

Also just to get relevant experience I would have to intern for next to nothing (or nothing!) for a few years before I would have experience that would be deemed suitable for 'industry'. This is a fact (as I have done a considerable amount of work into my career options).

I suppose my best point of action would be to vocalize everything I've said above to my supervisor herself, just for piece of mind. Also, would be no harm drawing up a pro and con list.

Thank you everyone for replying thus far - feel free to comment more, the advice given so far has been excellent.

Thanks

LegacyUser

Original OP here with an update on my situation. So I met my research group! All are much older than me 40's plus, married with kids (possibly my age or older, ha!) - but from the vibes I got from the meeting . . . . I *think* it's going to be ok.

I spoke to a friend of mine who's in the same uni (but a different department) and she has faced a similar situation (older colleagues, etc.) since she started her gad studies last Sept (she's 22 also). She essentially told me that her approach is to compartmentalize everything. She treats her personal life as her time for friends and family, etc. and sees her studies as her 'job'.

I suppose one of my main fears is that I will not have much of a life outside my PhD to actually live as a 23 (nights out, join clubs, etc.). But this aspect probably really boils down to me.

If anyone else has been in a similar spot please do comment about you experience

LegacyUser

Hey OP, not a member but had to comment.

I just turned 21 when I started my PhD, having gone straight into it from my masters and I'm in my second year of it now.

It's tough and requires a hell of a lot of self-motivation and determination - and comes with a lot of self-doubt and self-criticism - but the idea that you won't have a social life is nonsense. Treat it like you would any other job.

Regarding the age issue, think of it this way, in a few years you'll be 27 with a PhD and the world's your oyster!

You will be surrounded by people with various amounts of industry experience but as someone already said, if you go get a job you'll be working alongside people of varying ages and levels of experience anyway. Don't allow anyone to undermine you or your work based on your age alone, you obviously have the experience that your supervisor is looking for.

There's also something to be said for continuing on directly from degree or masters level. Depending on your area, you'll find a lot of the techniques you'll end up using as part of your research will be relatively fresh and familiar to you. In other words, it's not so much of a leap than if you were coming out of the work force after a couple of years.

It is a hugely rewarding experience. If you enjoy research and your own particular area, then you would be crazy to turn down a funded PhD in this area.

Good luck!