Sunvic motorised valve problem

sungear

Have a problem with the heating
First one zone wouldn't work then the other months later, it seems more like coincidence, but I'm still thinking maybe there could be another common problem.
I checked the pressure and it looks ok, made sure that the rads were fully bled, then thought maybe the thermostats, one upstairs and one downstairs, might have had some common fault?

The thing is I cannot see where they get their power from? I checked the upstairs against a nuetral in a nearby light switch and 230volts appears on my multimeter, I did not check the downstairs one yet.
I assume they would be both powered off the either the upstairs or downstairs light circuit??
(it looks like it is acting like a one way switch and from the wiring diagram on the motorised valve this circuit seems to power the motor in the valve).
I think the thermostats are probably ok, but I cant see a junction wiring box of any kind beside the boiler, or anywhere.

Got the heating going by popping the electrical part of the valves off, and manulally turning the valves by hand, previously it was reset by rotating a red wheel at the bottom, but this stopped allowing the valves to stay open, so looked at the electrical bit when the cover was off, it returns to the closed position, no matter if the thermostat is set high or low.

There is a second circuit on the valve (an orange and grey wire), the diagram shows it powering a box?? (it shows the thermostat powers the motor or M in a circle) not sure if what it turns on, assumed the boiler powers it in some way?, I assumed the thermostats controlled the valves? Anyway, It says switched live and from checking online it says the grey one is a permanent live. I cant see where any wire comes from the boiler, cant see a junction box anywhere.

I have to assume the wiring is all in place as it used to function fine.

I have tried to look into it already and it seems the motor part can be replaced (not sure how much or where to get it yet) but want to try confirm before buying the part opposed to buying the whole electrical bit as there is a small electrical board in there too, with maybe a switch.

Help!

Robbie.G

sungear wrote: »

Have a problem with the heating
First one zone wouldn't work then the other months later, it seems more like coincidence, but I'm still thinking maybe there could be another common problem.
I checked the pressure and it looks ok, made sure that the rads were fully bled, then thought maybe the thermostats, one upstairs and one downstairs, might have had some common fault?

The thing is I cannot see where they get their power from? I checked the upstairs against a nuetral in a nearby light switch and 230volts appears on my multimeter, I did not check the downstairs one yet.
I assume they would be both powered off the either the upstairs or downstairs light circuit??
(it looks like it is acting like a one way switch and from the wiring diagram on the motorised valve this circuit seems to power the motor in the valve).
I think the thermostats are probably ok, but I cant see a junction wiring box of any kind beside the boiler, or anywhere.

Got the heating going by popping the electrical part of the valves off, and manulally turning the valves by hand, previously it was reset by rotating a red wheel at the bottom, but this stopped allowing the valves to stay open, so looked at the electrical bit when the cover was off, it returns to the closed position, no matter if the thermostat is set high or low.

There is a second circuit on the valve (an orange and grey wire), the diagram shows it powering a box?? (it shows the thermostat powers the motor or M in a circle) not sure if what it turns on, assumed the boiler powers it in some way?, I assumed the thermostats controlled the valves? Anyway, It says switched live and from checking online it says the grey one is a permanent live. I cant see where any wire comes from the boiler, cant see a junction box anywhere.

I have to assume the wiring is all in place as it used to function fine.

I have tried to look into it already and it seems the motor part can be replaced (not sure how much or where to get it yet) but want to try confirm before buying the part opposed to buying the whole electrical bit as there is a small electrical board in there too, with maybe a switch.

Help!

Can you find the end of the leads coming from the motorised valves are all wires connected if not how many and what wires are connected.if your are sure the problems with the actuator just get a replacement one available in most plumbing and heating merchants.

youtheman

The system is most probably set up as such.

Circuit 1 - 220 volt
220 volts is supplied to your controller from a fused spur. 220 volts is outputted from your controller (depending if is in on, off or auto mode). Then the 220 volts is routed through your thermostat and onto the motor on the actuated valve.

So for the motor to open the zone valve the controller has to be calling for heat, and the temperature must must be less than the set point on the thermostat.

Circuit 2 - volt free
All the limit switches on your zone valves are wired in parallel such that any valve confirmed open (by any limit switch) will cause the boiler to fire.

Simple Check
Manually open any zone valve (basically bypassing Circuit 1). If your boiler fires then you know the boiler is fine, and its a control issue (Circuit 1). If the first zone valve does not fire the boiler, then try the remainder. This will tell you if it is a boiler or control problem.

To check Circuit 1 then turn the controller onto 'On', see that the 220 volts is getting to the thermostat. Adjust the set point on the thermostat up and down and see if this switches the 220 volts on/off. Then check to see that the 220 volts is getting to the zone valve (on the blue and brown leads) and the zone valve is opening and closing.

sungear

Robbie.G wrote: »

Can you find the end of the leads coming from the motorised valves are all wires connected if not how many and what wires are connected.if your are sure the problems with the actuator just get a replacement one available in most plumbing and heating merchants.

The leads dissapear into the wall beside the motorised valves.
There are two leads, one each for each motorised valve/zone (upstairs and downstairs) and two thermostats, one up and one downstairs.

I'm not sure where the wires end, it has 4 wires going into the back of the electrical part (brown, blue and grey, orange) there is a wiring diagram on the motor cover and it looks like a power wire (looks like the brown) comes from the thermostat.

What I cant see is a junction box, near the boiler or anywhere (its a vokera mynute 16e, didnt mention that) so maybe they terminate in at the boiler.

The thing is I can see the power wire from under the boiler and there is a fused box below the boiler. But I can see no wires coming from anywhere else (as in the orange and grey wires??)

When you say actuator, do you mean the whole electric bit, case and all? or do you mean the little motor inside. Took the cover off that and can see a little circuit and a motor, I assume the motor is just knackered?

I've removed the plastic covers as when I reset the red wheel under the box to allow heat the house it just reset itself to closed after.

Any ideas how much the motor or the actuator is?
It doesnt look like I need to to get the valve as the heating is on, but its set manually with the electric parts hanging down.

sungear

youtheman wrote: »

The system is most probably set up as such.

Circuit 1 - 220 volt
220 volts is supplied to your controller from a fused spur. 220 volts is outputted from your controller (depending if is in on, off or auto mode). Then the 220 volts is routed through your thermostat and onto the motor on the actuated valve.

So for the motor to open the zone valve the controller has to be calling for heat, and the temperature must must be less than the set point on the thermostat.

Circuit 2 - volt free
All the limit switches on your zone valves are wired in parallel such that any valve confirmed open (by any limit switch) will cause the boiler to fire.

Simple Check
Manually open any zone valve (basically bypassing Circuit 1). If your boiler fires then you know the boiler is fine, and its a control issue (Circuit 1). If the first zone valve does not fire the boiler, then try the remainder. This will tell you if it is a boiler or control problem.

To check Circuit 1 then turn the controller onto 'On', see that the 220 volts is getting to the thermostat. Adjust the set point on the thermostat up and down and see if this switches the 220 volts on/off. Then check to see that the 220 volts is getting to the zone valve (on the blue and brown leads) and the zone valve is opening and closing.

I'll print this off and do a step by step check of it,

but just for clarification, when you say circuit 1 and circuit 2 are you meaning what appears to be the two seperate circuits (brown,blue) and (grey, orange) on each motorised valve.
The thing is, initially when it began to stop working, I was able to manually open the valve by rolling the red wheel underneath the motorised valve, but then that stopped working and it seems to shut itself (and the valve) after a short while, I am wondering if manually doing this has sped up the failing of these valves?

The boiler has a built in time clock and works on the timer, it always turned on when it was timed to come on I assumed as there is no thermostat or motorised valve on the tank, the tank is taken off before the motorised valves. It might help if I take some pictures but I will try test what you have said.

I did already check one of the thermostats (upstairs) I was trying to confirm if there was power and where it was coming from, so I opened a light switch and used one of the nuetrals, I assumed if the power was a spur from the sockets it would cause the RCD to trip out if I tested the power in the thermostat against the nuetral in the light.

It did show 230volts and it did not trip anything out. I will try it at the motors too. So I still dont really know where it is coming from, maybe its possible its a spur from a socket? I dont think it is a seperate wire coming all the way from the boiler.

I was hoping it would be a little more obvious, but it seems I will have to search for where the power is coming from for a start, by individually turning circuit breakers on and off (lights included) and the fuse for the boiler also.

Thank you for both replies, I
will try test it first, but after that I may try get one part (for one valve) and fit it as it looks like I would just have to take the wires off the old actuator (whole unit?-4 wires) or even just the motor inside it (which has 2 wires inside the cover). I will just check with the multimeter as I have read up about permanent live, so might take the fuse out when doing it just in case i touch a wire or off another wire.

I did a google search and it seems there are known faults with this make of valve, I wonder would any make motor fit over the actual valve part. Where is the best place near blanchardstown for parts, not sure BandQ will be as good a price or if they do these parts?

spireland32

You should have a wiring centre somewhere in the house where all the wiring associated with the central heating is joined. You can test everything from there. Also at your boiler you should have a switched spur with a 3amp protecting the wiring and components within the heating system.

When this is off it should kill all the power to boiler, stats, motorised valves, timeclock. This spur is usually fed from a socket circuit or may even be on its own breaker on the main fuse board.

Danfoss and sunvic are interchangeable. Ive heard myson is also but cant confirm this. Heatmerchants in liffey valley or try cdv which is near power city in blanch.

sungear

spireland32 wrote: »

You should have a wiring centre somewhere in the house where all the wiring associated with the central heating is joined. You can test everything from there. Also at your boiler you should have a switched spur with a 3amp protecting the wiring and components within the heating system.

When this is off it should kill all the power to boiler, stats, motorised valves, timeclock. This spur is usually fed from a socket circuit or may even be on its own breaker on the main fuse board.

Danfoss and sunvic are interchangeable. Ive heard myson is also but cant confirm this. Heatmerchants in liffey valley or try cdv which is near power city in blanch.

thanks, i didnt try the fuse yet to confirm it kills power to everything controlling the heating, thats probably what I should have done to start with. I just cannot find anything that looks like a junction box anywhere around or near the boiler or anywhere else including the hotpress, is it possible that its inside the boiler in this case? or maybe I should start searching the attic? I did waste a bit of time trying to find it but then gave up and decided to try to get the house warm
I will look up CDV.

From trying to research this online, it seems there are other design problems with my heating, there are thermostatic valves everywhere, including the rooms that have thermostats and the bathroom, there is only one rad without a thermostatic valve. Its not really seeming to create an extra problem but it makes me wonder what else was done, like maybe where power was gotten from and the mysterious missing junction box??

I have heating working, due to removing the electric control boxes off the valves and manually setting the valves open. During all of this the boiler always worked and there was always hot water in the tank.
The incentive to do more was that as it has been so cold, obviously having the heating on is good and makes things not urgent to fix, but I do want to return to be able to set my heating by the thermostats and not setting the timer on and off.

spireland32

Think your best option is to get a good heating guy not a bathroom plumber. And get all these things looked and go from there.
Get a recommendation from friend or family member not someone from the golden pages

sungear

spireland32 wrote: »

Think your best option is to get a good heating guy not a bathroom plumber. And get all these things looked and go from there.
Get a recommendation from friend or family member not someone from the golden pages

Thanks, I am wondering if the junction box is in the back of the boiler, then I will have to get someone, if its only the motorised valves then I think I could do that myself.
Im going to try and check when the voltage is on and off at the motorised valves.
If I do a bit of the checking if i may get lucky and sort it or if I try just replace a part that might solve it.
If I end up getting someone then i can tell them what I found and shorten the time they have to spend tracking the problem down.

I am going to see how much the motor part on its own is but I cannot locate a price online for a place in Ireland yet, but have seen UK prices for 6-10 pounds?? or maybe the whole electric part, not sure how much that would be? anyone any ideas if that can be bought without the valve and for how much?
I will ring tomorrow but just want to get an idea.

spireland32

The motor on its own about €20-30 I wouldnt be sure of the price.

sungear

thanks, if that is the cause, its a bit of a relief that the cost is not to much.
I will try a few things to test to see if I can find where the power is coming from and if I can pin down if everything is ok, I think it is less likely a wire just came loose then it points to it being a particular part having failed, a motor being a moving part being might make it a candidate for that, but I have read online that the circuits with these also fail so could be the whole actuator, just trying to avoid buying it if not needed, so i will do one zone at a time.

sungear

youtheman wrote: »

The system is most probably set up as such.

Circuit 1 - 220 volt
220 volts is supplied to your controller from a fused spur. 220 volts is outputted from your controller (depending if is in on, off or auto mode). Then the 220 volts is routed through your thermostat and onto the motor on the actuated valve.

So for the motor to open the zone valve the controller has to be calling for heat, and the temperature must must be less than the set point on the thermostat.

Circuit 2 - volt free
All the limit switches on your zone valves are wired in parallel such that any valve confirmed open (by any limit switch) will cause the boiler to fire.

.

I understand what you are saying now, the controller in this case is a time clock built into the boiler

So when the timer is in an ON segment AND the thermostat detects it is below its required heat setting then the power opens the valve.

then instead of having two seperate pairs of wires running back from the motorised valves, its run in parallel so if either zone opens, the heating will come on. So two wires come from the boiler for the grey orange wires and then any grey/orange wires are run in parallel two those wires, so either will switch the boiler on.

Can I ask this of you or anyone, I found a pdf online of the actuator wiring, its the first wiring drawing diagram.
http://www.plumbcenter.co.uk/wcsstore7.00.00.626/ExtendedSitesCatalogAssetStore/images/products/AssetPush/DTP_AssetPushHighRes/std.lang.all/ti/on/Sunvic_SZM1801_Installation.pdf

of the 4 wires, there is one nuetral and what looks like 3 lives.
The brown comes from the thermostat and operates the motor,
I assume the Nuetral is common for all,
the grey looks like a constant Live??
and
the switched Live, is the box in the drawing meaning the switch? which allows the power from the grey wire back to the boiler??

I probably will have to get someone in the end but I am so mad at this, I just want to figure it out. Money is tight and I am afraid how much it will cost, but if I can reduce that by doing a bit of checking then I can proabbly reduce the time for labour or are there standardish prices across the board???

Im a bit concerned about getting a plumber that doesnt really know about this kind of thing, I know some must but I dont think all will. Other than asking them I suppose I wont know, rough idea on labour to fix, I can hazard a guess at the parts, looks like 45-50 euro a valve? or maybe less if its for the internal motor.

youtheman

My motorised valve has 5 wires, 2 for the 220 volts (blue and brown, driving the valve motor) and 2 for the volt free (orange and grey, for the limit switch), plus the fifth wire which is the gree/yellow wire for the earth.

Send me a PM with your e-mail address and I can e-mail you a typical wiring diagram for a 2 zone syztem.

Robbie.G

The heating is not wired as a S plan the motorised valves are not switching the boiler they are only opening and closing the circuits as both actuators are removed and the heating is working the actuators are getting no supply of power

sungear

Robbie.G wrote: »

The heating is not wired as a S plan the motorised valves are not switching the boiler they are only opening and closing the circuits as both actuators are removed and the heating is working the actuators are getting no supply of power

It does seem like the heating is set to come on by the timer only but I will check by doing a few tests.
and that the thermostats act like a one way switch to allow power to go to the motors to allow them to open when they see they are under the temperature they are set for.

I plan to test the connections to see where voltages are. but tomorrow.

The valves were staying in the closed position and not opening, when they were opened manually by the red wheel under the actuator, they would seem to power up and then close again after a short while.

I am wondering if they were wired up right at all, but I will have to try find a junction box or where the orange and grey wire returns to.

If the thermostats were intended to be used to switch the valve and then the valves were not intended to switch on the boiler then I would guess that the orange and grey wires are not meant to be connected.
If I find no voltage on the grey wires at all, which look like a permanent live then even if i dont find the junction box I could hazard a guess that they are not connected.Or maybe there will still be a live to shut the valve.

I am begining to think this is the motor at fault in each actuator, they failed at different times but operating them manual may have hurried their failure , I will take some pictures with a camera as I proceed, I took some with my phone but couldnt get them onto the laptop.

edit, I should say, the actuators are removed off the valves, but I did not dissconnect their wiring, they are just hanging there, I can see in the back of them and the part that turns the valve is in the closed position in both, and the heating is working fine, all rads on, hot water as before this all started

paulwalker

Hi, my ideal combi boiler mini HE C24 has lights flashing that i don t know what they mean. The 2nd light is red(not flashing) and the 3rd light is flashing green. The pilot light sometimes goes off too and i have to reset it. What s wrong with it? It keeps on igniting and going off. i still have both hot water and heating. But I still don t get the idea what to do with that?

K.Flyer

paulwalker wrote: »

Hi, my ideal combi boiler mini HE C24 has lights flashing that i don t know what they mean. The 2nd light is red(not flashing) and the 3rd light is flashing green. The pilot light sometimes goes off too and i have to reset it. What s wrong with it? It keeps on igniting and going off. i still have both hot water and heating. But I still don t get the idea what to do with that?

It all depends on the sequence of the flashing light.
For example; steady constant pulse, or 2 (or 3 or 4) flashes pause two flashes (or 3 or 4) pause etc.