Kings Inns and the Legal Services Bill

laman127

Hi all,

I've decided to apply for Kings Inns but am undecided whether to sit the exams this year or next year ie attending inns starting in Oct 2013 or Oct 2014 (provided I pass! ).

While i would love to do it this year for personal and financial reasons I am considering putting it off for a year.

From speaking to a friend, the widely held view seems to be to qualify asap and get contacts and experience before the effects of the legal services bill hit.

Does anyone currently practicing at the Bar/devilling/attending Inns have any views on this? The last thing I want to do is leave it too late to go down and not acquire contacts before the Bill/Act hits!

Secondly, has anyone worked full time while studying for the exams? If so, how long do you think is needed?

Finally, i've heard 18 months in advance of devilling is time to be contacting masters. Is this peoples general experience?

Thanks so much in advance for any help/views/opinions!!

Tom Young

Don't be under any illusions about the Bar, it's a desolate place currently.

Pay cycles elongated due to recession.

24 months deviling is the norm, 12 the requirement.

Get in and do the Inns, the Legal Services Bill shouldn't concern you presently. You're not in practice. Cart, horse, etc.

Plenty of threads here re. Inns and the Bar, use the forum search.

My ten cent: Do it, qualify, devil, see how you go.

johnnyskeleton

laman127 wrote: »

Hi all,

I've decided to apply for Kings Inns but am undecided whether to sit the exams this year or next year ie attending inns starting in Oct 2013 or Oct 2014 (provided I pass! ).

I think youcan sit the exams, pass and then defer for a year if necessary. That way, if a mistake is made and you don't pass in 2014 you won't have to put it off for yet another year.

From speaking to a friend, the widely held view seems to be to qualify asap and get contacts and experience before the effects of the legal services bill hit.

What exactly does your friend mean? I am perhaps assuming too much but if he means that if you're not in the bar when the bill comes in you will be excluded from chambersey type things I wouldn't worry too much. Such radical changes are not proposed to come in immediately and if they do I can't see any dramatic distinction being made between someone who is a member of the library for 1/2 years and someone who is a new entrant.

Secondly, has anyone worked full time while studying for the exams? If so, how long do you think is needed?

Download the curriculum and from your law degree you will have a rough idea how long it will take to go through. KI exams are not harder than college exams.

Finally, i've heard 18 months in advance of devilling is time to be contacting masters. Is this peoples general experience?

The longer the better but less than 18 months is still fine. Don't organise a master until you know when exactly you will be starting in the law library ie don't ask someone now for Oct 2014 if you might wait another year.

Procrastastudy

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Download the curriculum and from your law degree you will have a rough idea how long it will take to go through. KI exams are not harder than college exams.

A word of caution though - due to the compulsory question you can't cherry pick topics like you may, or may not, have got away with during a degree.

laman127

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I think youcan sit the exams, pass and then defer for a year if necessary. That way, if a mistake is made and you don't pass in 2014 you won't have to put it off for yet another year.



What exactly does your friend mean? I am perhaps assuming too much but if he means that if you're not in the bar when the bill comes in you will be excluded from chambersey type things I wouldn't worry too much. Such radical changes are not proposed to come in immediately and if they do I can't see any dramatic distinction being made between someone who is a member of the library for 1/2 years and someone who is a new entrant.



Download the curriculum and from your law degree you will have a rough idea how long it will take to go through. KI exams are not harder than college exams.



The longer the better but less than 18 months is still fine. Don't organise a master until you know when exactly you will be starting in the law library ie don't ask someone now for Oct 2014 if you might wait another year.

I think what he means is that with the formation of chambers and legal partnerships the best approach is to get down there so as to build contacts and not be on your own when it hits! Thanks for your comment

Also, has anyone actually deferred for a year? I saw on the Inns website criteria like exceptional circumstances for deferring. Does anyone have any experience of this?

FreudianSlippers

laman127 wrote: »

I think what he means is that with the formation of chambers and legal partnerships the best approach is to get down there so as to build contacts and not be on your own when it hits! Thanks for your comment

Also, has anyone actually deferred for a year? I saw on the Inns website criteria like exceptional circumstances for deferring. Does anyone have any experience of this?

That's deferring the Inns after the entrance exam, I believe the earlier poster was talking about deferring devilling after the Inns (I know a few people from my year that did it).

I will throw my 2c in with Tom Young btw.

Edit: also, I have an inside source that informed me recently that the committee stage will resume on the Bill in February or March and it is expected to be passed before the start of the next legal year. Take that with as much salt as you would like!

laman127

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

That's deferring the Inns after the entrance exam, I believe the earlier poster was talking about deferring devilling after the Inns (I know a few people from my year that did it).

I will throw my 2c in with Tom Young btw.

Edit: also, I have an inside source that informed me recently that the committee stage will resume on the Bill in February or March and it is expected to be passed before the start of the next legal year. Take that with as much salt as you would like!

Just curious, have you're friends who have done inns then took a year out found it hard to get work during the break year? I'd hope it wouldn't be too hard with a BL! This is looking like a real option for me but i'd be leaving a decent paid job to do it.

FreudianSlippers

laman127 wrote: »

Just curious, have you're friends who have done inns then took a year out found it hard to get work during the break year? I'd hope it wouldn't be too hard with a BL! This is looking like a real option for me but i'd be leaving a decent paid job to do it.

The people I know were young and did the straight through undergrad, postgrad and the inns at the absolute minimum time. I think they just took a year out to travel and unwind before starting their careers.

I'm sure there are others on here who have done it themselves or know people who have that can be of more help.

NoQuarter

laman127 wrote: »

Just curious, have you're friends who have done inns then took a year out found it hard to get work during the break year? I'd hope it wouldn't be too hard with a BL! This is looking like a real option for me but i'd be leaving a decent paid job to do it.

I'm a bit unsure as to what you are asking here, you are either asking about finding it hard to get work at the bar after a break year or finding it hard to get work in-house after a break year.

If, after your break year, you are going to the bar, you wont find it any different as you will have a master to give you all your work, so there will be no difference. It may even be a bit better considering your classmates will be a year ahead and can help show you the ropes. So if that is the plan, dont worry about taking a gap year.

If, on the other hand, you plan to go in-house and you think a BL is enough, I hate to break this to you but its not, its still a struggle without I'd say 3 years experience under your belt.

There is simply no easy path.

Hotcuppa

I apologise if this is the wrong forum for this question but I really need people to tell me the truth about the current situation. I am a second year undergraduate law student who really really wants to be a barrister but the more I read articles and the legal services regulation bill the more I become despondent . Is the entire profession of barristers being picked on by minister shatter who I believe has a vendetta against barristers? Removal of robes, creation of chambers, solicitors becoming senior counsel ?? An independent cost adjudicator and regulation of the education . Am I mad or is this an attempt to merge the two professions? I have no interest in being a solicitor , working quietly in an office for the rest of my life has no interest for me , I want the exciting cut and thrust of advocacy and courtroom experience but it seems to me that the profession I have always wanted may be stripped from me as I graduate with my law degree.
Can people here who I see are very knowagable about this subject and work in the industry explain what's really going on !!! ..

P.s I know it's a little vain but they won't get rid of the gown will they????

johnnyskeleton

Hotcuppa wrote: »

I apologise if this is the wrong forum for this question but I really need people to tell me the truth about the current situation.

Truth, unfortunately, is what you make of it. For some people the truth of not getting paid anything in 3 months is that there is no hope for the bar. For others, success is just around the corner. It is impossible to express a genuine opinion about the bar without accusations of bias - if I'm positive about the bar, perhaps it is because I tutor for the entrance exams. If I'm negative, maybe I don't want any more competition.

No one knows what the future holds, you just have to assess all available information, make a decision and hope for the best.

I am a second year undergraduate law student who really really wants to be a barrister but the more I read articles and the legal services regulation bill the more I become despondent . Is the entire profession of barristers being picked on by minister shatter who I believe has a vendetta against barristers?

Not really. They have to make changes and the most vocal opponent is the bar council. The most vocal government minister on this is the justice minister. Hence the Shatter v the Bar false dichotomy.

Removal of robes, creation of chambers, solicitors becoming senior counsel ?? An independent cost adjudicator and regulation of the education . Am I mad or is this an attempt to merge the two professions?

Removal of wigs or even gowns and robes is just superficial. The government can't "create" chambers, they can only pass a law and hope it comes true. Solicitors becoming senior counsel is perfectly fine in my view, provided that they actually do a senior counsels role and don't just treat it as an honorific.

I have no interest in being a solicitor , working quietly in an office for the rest of my life has no interest for me , I want the exciting cut and thrust of advocacy and courtroom experience

Barristers do paperwork too you know. In fact, the appearance is court is often described as the tip of the iceberg of intense preparation of a case. Likewise, many solicitors do their own advocacy and when they don't they are often still in court with their counsel.

In any event, even if there was a merged profession, there would still be room for specialist advocates.

To be honest, the longer the bill drags on the less likely it is to have any impact. There are greater difficulties for lawyers that are less publicised, such as the increased reduction in fees by the taxing master.

Tom Young

My view expressed above stands. If you want to be an advocate, then just get on with it, but enter the process knowing that it is no bed of roses. Hard work and elbow grease are strong features required in the legal profession these days.

234

Honestly, I believe that establishing a chambers system in Ireland would be preferable for new entrants to the profession. It would effectively stop the rapid expansion of the Bar and set the threshold for dropping out much earlier.

In England and Wales if you don't get in to chambers after 2-3 years you will probably move on a get another job. Here you can be in practice (notionally) for years before you have to pack it in. Better to be given the harsh news sooner, when you are still young enough to take your life in a completely new direction.

Those who are accepted into a chambers will be very likely (but of course not guaranteed) at least a steady supply of work of some description. It would probably also help with the problem of chasing aged debt to some extent as you wouldn't be compromising your personal relationship with a solicitor if a clerk was doing it.

Obviously there would be concerns over the independence of the bar and the availability of the best advocates as well as the possibility of driving up costs (chambers fees have to come from somewhere) but I honestly think that any attempt at change can only be welcomed considering the parlous state of the Bar in Ireland at the moment.

NoQuarter

Great job at the moment but the financial situation is nothing short of dire. If you are lucky enough to get work in your first few years, you will be even luckier to get paid for it.

Hotcuppa

It sounds like a great job to be honest and friends of mine who are barristers love it so much despite the first few years of desperate poverty. All that I'm ok about but my concern is there going to be a profession to go into in two years time or will it just be the amalgamated profession of lawyer ??! I want my wig and gown lol !!!

Tom Young

Hotcuppa wrote: »

I want my wig and gown lol !!!

I suggest you try Miss Fantasia, expunge the wig and gown fetish, and think again.

The Bar is about substance, not form.

Hotcuppa

Il look into that!

johnnyskeleton

On wigs anyway, it seems to be the case that in a few years they will have fallen into disuse without any legislation being needed to proscribe them. At the moment maybe 1 in 10 barristers wear them, and even less than that number of judges.