Petrol Cars On The Way Back

fergiesfolly

Was listening to a motoring correspondant on Matt Coopers show this evening and she said petrol cars were making a comeback in new year car sales.
Is this true? And if so, why?
I know a lot of people who bought diesel cars post 08, simply for the car tax savings. People who did low milage, urban driving, that were never going to get the benefit of a diesel car.
So. Is it true? Is petrol reborn?

Nissan doctor

Diesel was only ever a quick fix to the Euro emissions regulations. Diesels naturally produce less CO2 then petrols.

Petrol engines where always going to come back when technology caught up as it is much cleaner overall then diesel.
Small capacity turbocharged engines are the medium term future for pretty much all manufacturers, the likes of VAG's TSI's and Fords latest Ecoboost engines.

Guy:Incognito

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Diesel was only ever a quick fix to the Euro emissions regulations. Diesels naturally produce less CO2 then petrols.

Petrol engines where always going to come back when technology caught up as it is much cleaner overall then diesel.
Small capacity turbocharged engines are the medium term future for pretty much all manufacturers, the likes of VAG's TSI's and Fords latest Ecoboost engines.

How many issues will arise over time with small petrol engines that are pushed hard to get higher bhp? Add to that a lax attitude to servicing.

Nissan doctor

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How many issues will arise over time with small petrol engines that are pushed hard to get higher bhp? Add to that a lax attitude to servicing.

Many I have no doubt as they will all require very specific oils and even engine/manufacturer specific coolant is being developed by manufacturers allowing them to fit smaller water pumps or even electric ones.

Couple that to soon to be mandatory start/stop systems and regerative braking systems amongst others and it'll be great fun altogether.

ltdslipdiff

I've driven the Renault 899cc TCe 90bhp in a Dacia Sandero, and the 1.2 TCe 115bhp in the Megane and I have to say was well impressed. We'll be a while converting those diesel-addicts though I'd say.....

Nissan doctor

ltdslipdiff wrote: »

I've driven the Renault 899cc TCe 90bhp in a Dacia Sandero, and the 1.2 TCe 115bhp in the Megane and I have to say was well impressed. We'll be a while converting those diesel-addicts though I'd say.....

Most will convert in an instant if the tax price is correct.

corkgsxr

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How many issues will arise over time with small petrol engines that are pushed hard to get higher bhp? Add to that a lax attitude to servicing.

They'll be a form of super/turbocharging so its not a highly tuned engine.

Diesels have gotten to the stage where its essential to service them or they'll just stop or blow stuff

JoeA3

I heard the last few minutes of the segment and the woman was an utter spoofer! She was throwing out "facts" that she must have read on the back of a cornflakes box and Matt was struggling to get any concrete advice from her.

One of her gems was to not use your headlights... To save fuel.

And I thought the Conor Faughnan guy was bad.

Stheno

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Many I have no doubt as they will all require very specific oils and even engine/manufacturer specific coolant is being developed by manufacturers allowing them to fit smaller water pumps or even electric ones.

Couple that to soon to be mandatory start/stop systems and regerative braking systems amongst others and it'll be great fun altogether.

ND do you mind me asking what you mean by mandatory start stop systems? I assume they will only come in on cars from a certain year/month onwards?

Elessar

I hope so. I've always preferred petrol over diesel. I bought a 1.2tsi golf last year. Surprising amount of torque for such a small engine.

lomb

Diesel cars are significantly dearer to buy than petrol cars especially small cars like the polo size. Id say the fuel savings dont outweigh significantly the purchase price. Tax is much of a muchness now.

Stheno

Stheno wrote: »

......what you mean by mandatory start stop systems? I assume they will only come in on cars from a certain year/month onwards?

Won't be applied retrospectively All new cars from x,y, z on

challengemaster

corkgsxr wrote: »

They'll be a form of super/turbocharging so its not a highly tuned engine.

Ah right. You should probably let someone know that turbocharging an engine doesn't cause stress. They've had it wrong all along!

Diesels have gotten to the stage where its essential to service them or they'll just stop or blow stuff

SERVICE IT? Well I never.


:rolleyes:

Autosport

Nah i'll be sticking with diesel, works out better for me as i do alot of driving motorway etc and i get 2 weeks out of a full tank. When i had petrol i was filling the tank every week.

Autosport

Autosport wrote: »

......... i get 2 weeks out of a full tank. When i had petrol i was filling the tank every week.

Not every petrol will have half the mpg of your diesel

TouchingVirus

Autosport wrote: »

Nah i'll be sticking with diesel, works out better for me as i do alot of driving motorway etc and i get 2 weeks out of a full tank. When i had petrol i was filling the tank every week.

You might as well get some LPG then if all you're worried about is costs and MPG

corkgsxr

challengemaster wrote: »

Ah right. You should probably let someone know that turbocharging an engine doesn't cause stress. They've had it wrong all along!



SERVICE IT? Well I never.


:rolleyes:

No but theres a big difference between a highly tuned engine and a turbocharged engine in terms of stress.

Look at the reno 1.5 and psa 1.6 diesels. Both give savage trouble if not serviced some even if you do. Engines under too much pressure trying to make most power from a diesel turbo.

dieselbug

As always the technology is emissions driven. New Euro 6 emission limits coming up.

Along with particulate filters and all that goes along with it will be add blue, Nox cats, pumps, sensors and the software that goes with it, making running and maintenance costs of diesels more expensive I suspect. Engines will get smaller and more efficient with recouping of wasted energy from braking etc.

The new generation of petrols dont have a problem meeting the new emissions limits, not as straightfoward with diesel as Nox levels are a problem.

As always fuel prices will have a big influence on whether a petrol or diesel car is the choice of the individual.


http://wardsauto.com/ar/psa_euro_6_100601

Tea 1000

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Many I have no doubt as they will all require very specific oils and even engine/manufacturer specific coolant is being developed by manufacturers allowing them to fit smaller water pumps or even electric ones.

Couple that to soon to be mandatory start/stop systems and regerative braking systems amongst others and it'll be great fun altogether.

True, I was reading about Ford's clever 1 litre Ecoboost engine and the way it has a valve to control water around the block for cooling, so it can heat up more quickly to operating temperature and therefore it's more economical, less wear on the engine as the oil is at temperature more quickly and the cabin can get warm quick too. All well and good until that valve sticks...

On another note, people are overly worried about petrols being over-stressed. If you look at a N/A petrol and what it produces in unstressed form. Back 15 years ago, a 2 litre petrol was probably putting out around 130bhp on average. A 2 litre N/A diesel around 70bhp on average. People have no problem in singing the praises of a 2 litre turbo diesel putting out 184bhp, almost 3 times the amount of it's N/A average self, but question a 100bhp 1 litre, where 1 litre N/A's can easily knock out 55bhp unstressed, so only around double the power!

galwaytt

dieselbug wrote: »

As always the technology is emissions driven. New Euro 6 emission limits coming up.

....I read somewhere a while ago that the new Scania Euro 6 engine for Artic's is ready for sale, but they're not pushing it.

It is same power, same consumption, but Euro 6 - and cost € 11k extra per unit to get it to Euro 6. And, it's very sensitive to diesel quality - for instance, diesel in Southern europe or Eastern Block would be worse, and the engine won't run or might even get damaged by it. They are say a truck driver in N. Germany for instance, would need to fuel so that he can go out & back without buying diesel in those regions. Sounds like a fabulous recipe for long-term reliabilty then................In other words - there is no benefit from Euro 6, and it costs more.

And, they are not expecting a rush to buy them - to the contrary, they are expecting a rush from customers to buy up Euro 5's in advance of the new regs and so putting off buying Euro 6's as long as possible.

galwaytt

dieselbug wrote: »

As always the technology is emissions driven. New Euro 6 emission limits coming up.

Along with particulate filters and all that goes along with it will be add blue, Nox cats, pumps, sensors and the software that goes with it, making running and maintenance costs of diesels more expensive I suspect. Engines will get smaller and more efficient with recouping of wasted energy from braking etc.

The new generation of petrols dont have a problem meeting the new emissions limits, not as straightfoward with diesel as Nox levels are a problem.

As always fuel prices will have a big influence on whether a petrol or diesel car is the choice of the individual.


http://wardsauto.com/ar/psa_euro_6_100601

Very interesting article that - God, an 'Adblue' scenario for car ! Ha!

Curious that diesel advantage on fuel is down to only 10%...........

furtzy

A lot of people bought diesels because the market was turning that way and they didn't want to be caught with a petrol car come trade in time.

Lutecia

galwaytt wrote: »

....I read somewhere a while ago that the new Scania Euro 6 engine for Artic's is ready for sale, but they're not pushing it.

It is same power, same consumption, but Euro 6 - and cost € 11k extra per unit to get it to Euro 6. And, it's very sensitive to diesel quality - for instance, diesel in Southern europe or Eastern Block would be worse, and the engine won't run or might even get damaged by it. They are say a truck driver in N. Germany for instance, would need to fuel so that he can go out & back without buying diesel in those regions. Sounds like a fabulous recipe for long-term reliabilty then................In other words - there is no benefit from Euro 6, and it costs more.

And, they are not expecting a rush to buy them - to the contrary, they are expecting a rush from customers to buy up Euro 5's in advance of the new regs and so putting off buying Euro 6's as long as possible.

You're right there.
However for cars, some European countries may make up some indirect incentives toward Euro6 cars.
I know in Milan, the congestion charge depends if the car is Euro 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5. And the cleaner, the cheaper. Paris is considering forbidding 17 years old+ cars to be driven on its streets (sounds crazy, no DS or 2CV ??).
If European cities multiply these kind of moves, it may as well create a demand on cleaner cars, just like carpool lanes of California once good for hybrid, now for pluging (and natural gas) cars only.

Turbulent Bill

furtzy wrote: »

A lot of people bought diesels because the market was turning that way and they didn't want to be caught with a petrol car come trade in time.

The result of this is a serious lack of petrol-engined used cars, so in a lot of cases you need to look to diesels even if you don't need/want one. I've been casually looking for used petrol Mazda 6s or Mondeos, and although they're cheaper than the diesels, the availability seems to be rubbish.

Stallingrad

Well having ditched my diesel for petrol I am more than happy. My OH who drives a modern diesel begs us to use my car when going anywhere as it is a different planet in terms of refinement.

furtzy

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

The result of this is a serious lack of petrol-engined used cars, so in a lot of cases you need to look to diesels even if you don't need/want one. I've been casually looking for used petrol Mazda 6s or Mondeos, and although they're cheaper than the diesels, the availability seems to be rubbish.

Thats defintely the case. Think I'll be looking at the small cc turbo charged petrol options when I buy later this year instead of the diesel option

nemo32

So am I buying a 07 1.6 petrol Nissan or a 08 2.0 Diesel Nissan with the same milage???

corkgsxr

Tea 1000 wrote: »

True, I was reading about Ford's clever 1 litre Ecoboost engine and the way it has a valve to control water around the block for cooling, so it can heat up more quickly to operating temperature and therefore it's more economical, less wear on the engine as the oil is at temperature more quickly and the cabin can get warm quick too. All well and good until that valve sticks...

a thermostat? or add a second one. old tech

On another note, people are overly worried about petrols being over-stressed. If you look at a N/A petrol and what it produces in unstressed form. Back 15 years ago, a 2 litre petrol was probably putting out around 130bhp on average. A 2 litre N/A diesel around 70bhp on average. People have no problem in singing the praises of a 2 litre turbo diesel putting out 184bhp, almost 3 times the amount of it's N/A average self, but question a 100bhp 1 litre, where 1 litre N/A's can easily knock out 55bhp unstressed, so only around double the power!

my point petrols have miles to go in forced induction before there become as stressed as modern diesels

galwaytt wrote: »

....I read somewhere a while ago that the new Scania Euro 6 engine for Artic's is ready for sale, but they're not pushing it.

It is same power, same consumption, but Euro 6 - and cost € 11k extra per unit to get it to Euro 6. And, it's very sensitive to diesel quality - for instance, diesel in Southern europe or Eastern Block would be worse, and the engine won't run or might even get damaged by it. They are say a truck driver in N. Germany for instance, would need to fuel so that he can go out & back without buying diesel in those regions. Sounds like a fabulous recipe for long-term reliabilty then................In other words - there is no benefit from Euro 6, and it costs more.

And, they are not expecting a rush to buy them - to the contrary, they are expecting a rush from customers to buy up Euro 5's in advance of the new regs and so putting off buying Euro 6's as long as possible.

its also alot of the euro emmissions parts that cause problems in cars. egr`s dpf`s etc

Nissan doctor

On the subject of engines becoming more stressed with higher outputs. Its not always the case. Modern diesel engines give little or no more mechanic issues now then they did 30 years ago. That's because the reason for the extra power has nothing to do the internals of the engine, its high pressure electronically controlled fuel injection systems that allow the extra power and while these can and do fail(injectors etc), much of that is down to incorrect use and poor quality fuel.

As for high power small capacity petrols, again much of the increase is from modern fuel injection methods(direct injection, stratified fuel etc) as well as the turbo, but forced induction engines use lower compression pistons then naturally aspirated engines so are, for the most part, under much less stress.

Its maintenance where most of the issues with the latest and next generation of petrol engines will stem from IMO. As mentioned, specific oils will be developed as well as other fluids, as well as very specific mechanical and electronic maintenance being required.
A couple of examples are the spark plugs on the latest direct injection engines have to be fitted and tightened to an exact angle so that the spark fires directly into the fuel spray as its injected.
The next generation of emission control systems are also going to have to be calibrated as part of normal vehicle maintenance.

Couple the like of those with the Irish mindset of servicing and a perception of unreliability is sure to appear, exactly as is the case with modern diesels.

Tea 1000

corkgsxr wrote: »

my point petrols have miles to go in forced induction before there become as stressed as modern diesels



its also alot of the euro emmissions parts that cause problems in cars. egr`s dpf`s etc

I wasn't talking about stress, I was more talking about the new fangled ways of getting more mpg out of a similar bhp output. Years ago Subaru and Mitsubishi were getting anything up to 200bhp per litre from their petrol engines, but didn't give a flying f**k about mpg. Now they'd be expected to return 45mpg and emit 99g/km of CO2 while still giving 300bhp, which would mean that while not being driven hard, all the tech that's there to give the power will need to be switched off or turned down or blocked off or bypassed or other such crap so the car can pass the Euro test, which means that there are 20 new things to go pair shaped.

Poulgorm

Some posters here stress the importance of servicing diesel engines. Of course they are correct: but it should be pointed out that many diesel owners who have serviced their cars properly have incurred huge repair costs.

The implication (if it is intended) that these repairs are caused entirely by the drivers slack attitude to servicing, is not factual: I am sure that many people here can confirm that. I am one of them.

Diesel - never again.

Tea 1000

Poulgorm wrote: »

Some posters here stress the importance of servicing diesel engines. Of course they are correct: but it should be pointed out that many diesel owners who have serviced their cars properly have incurred huge repair costs.

The implication (if it is intended) that these repairs are caused entirely by the drivers slack attitude to servicing, is not factual: I am sure that many people here can confirm that. I am one of them.

Diesel - never again.

You're right, just servicing alone will not prevent EGR & DPF clogs, injector problems etc.

Nissan doctor

Poulgorm wrote: »

Some posters here stress the importance of servicing diesel engines. Of course they are correct: but it should be pointed out that many diesel owners who have serviced their cars properly have incurred huge repair costs.

The implication (if it is intended) that these repairs are caused entirely by the drivers slack attitude to servicing, is not factual: I am sure that many people here can confirm that. I am one of them.

Diesel - never again.

When you say serviced properly though, its not just how regularly the car owner has it serviced that is the problem, Many garages do not use the correct specs of oil or follow the vehicle manufacturers maintenance schedules but the main cause of problems for modern diesels is how they are used.

Diesels are not, and have never been, suitable for small mileage, urban driving, but due to their low CO2 emissions, manufacturers have quickly developed them for sale, and stemming from that, their low tax price made everyone run out a buy one, despite very few actually having a need for diesel.

Constant stop start driving and low mileage are issues as they cause excess carbon build up which damages EGR's and DPF's, Bacteria in the fuel which damages pumps and injectors and both of those, along with the stop/start driving create excess vibrations which lead to premature DMF failure. Turbo's are generally no more trouble on Diesels then they are on petrols, its just that most diesels have turbos, whereas most petrols don't so most people have no previous experience in the specific use and maintenance of them.

An abundance of poor quality diesel in Ireland adds to the problem too.

Andrewf20

About a year ago there appeared to be an undercurrent of worry that fuel prices woule rise to 2+ euros per litre. Its current price stabilisation is probably putting a bit of confidence back in people, leading to them going for petrols once again.

newspower

I have drove Diesels for the last 3 Cars I have had and I had no problem with any of them. The engines are able for a lot more than petrol and gone are the days of the noisy 1988 Golf Diesels. If they are serviced when they should be they are much better than Petrols and more economical. I would have to be dragged kicking and screaming into a Petrol car. Give my TDI any day............

maidhc

This is a bit of a pointless argument when you consider most cars get scrapped because they are unloved rather than suffering a huge mechanical failure.

I bet more MK1 and Mk2 Mondeos were scrapped because of a clutch wearing out than a petrol or diesel engine throwing a hissy.