Carbon Monoxide Poisoning

shane0007

Following today's report of yet another tragic case of two losses of life, I would like to first extend thoughts to the families affected and to again emphasise the need for have ALL fossil fuel burning appliances maintained not just regularly but properly. The days of so called in & out servicing will hopefully come to an end. This type of report is sadly happening all too many times.
Also install CO alarms wherever there is a fuel consuming appliance.
Remember that CO can be from all fossil fuel burning appliances such as Natural Gas, LPG, Oil & Solid Fuel Appliances, including stoves.

Within the first two weeks of purchasing my Personal CO Alarm in early December, it alarmed twice and happily not since then.

TPM

shane0007 wrote: »

Following today's report of yet another tragic case of two losses of life, I would like to first extend thoughts to the families affected and to again emphasise the need for have ALL fossil fuel burning appliances maintained not just regularly but properly. The days of so called in & out servicing will hopefully come to an end. This type of report is sadly happening all too many times.
Also install CO alarms wherever there is a fuel consuming appliance.
Remember that CO can be from all fossil fuel burning appliances such as Natural Gas, LPG, Oil & Solid Fuel Appliances, including stoves.

Within the first two weeks of purchasing my Personal CO Alarm in early December, it alarmed twice and happily not since then.

+1 And thanks to Shane for highlighting this particular hazard

Just to note that CO alarms are an added safety and not a replacement for correct installation and service.
Gas cookers and hobs can also produce CO but are often over looked

It's very sad and very preventable.

With things getting a bit colder anyone using a fire or back boiler should check your ventilation hasn't been blocked, as is common, a vent can be a life saver if things go pear shaped. If in doubt have it checked out especially when renting, there is just no need for these deaths in this day and age.

K.Flyer

Unfortunately it takes a tragedy like this for people to sit up and pay attention to the hazards of C.O. poisoning.

corkgsxr

Mm servicing seems to be a afterthought not a necessity.

Like if you have a spare few bob and can think of nothing else to spend it on

dodzy

I fitted 2 CO (mains powered) maybe a year ago. Just out of interest, how would you test them ? Might sound strange to some, but I'd like to know that they will actually work in the event of CO detection. An "always on" solid green LED does not offer me too much assurance.

corkgsxr

dodzy wrote: »

I fitted 2 CO (mains powered) maybe a year ago. Just out of interest, how would you test them ? Might sound strange to some, but I'd like to know that they will actually work in the event of CO detection. An "always on" solid green LED does not offer me too much assurance.

dont they normally have a test button.

i suppose that tests the alarm and not the sensor

Robbie.G

dodzy wrote: »

I fitted 2 CO (mains powered) maybe a year ago. Just out of interest, how would you test them ? Might sound strange to some, but I'd like to know that they will actually work in the event of CO detection. An "always on" solid green LED does not offer me too much assurance.

There are a number of ways they can be tested you can hold a lit cigarete up to them let the smoke in the sensor or there is a spray you can get to test them

dodzy

corkgsxr wrote: »

dont they normally have a test button.

i suppose that tests the alarm and not the sensor

And one is useless without the other. Interested in the spray Robbie referred to though.

Charmaine King

There is now a new Irish made product on the market that not only helps prevent carbon monoxide emissions, but also automatically cleans your chimney and prevents chimney fires. It's guaranteed for 10 years and available nationwide. Check out www.chimneysafe.com

Be safe in your home.

shane0007

Charmaine King wrote: »

There is now a new Irish made product on the market that not only helps prevent carbon monoxide emissions, but also automatically cleans your chimney and prevents chimney fires. It's guaranteed for 10 years and available nationwide. Check out www.chimneysafe.com

Be safe in your home.

So how does it prevent carbon monoxide from a defective gas boiler, a defective cooker, a defective oil boiler, a defective gas fire, etc.
I did not mean this thread for self promotion but for safety & awareness. Typical!!!
So does it eliminate carbon monoxide from a block chimney caused by a bird's nest?

Charmaine King

shane0007 wrote: »

So how does it prevent carbon monoxide from a defective gas boiler, a defective cooker, a defective oil boiler, a defective gas fire, etc.
I did not mean this thread for self promotion but for safety & awareness. Typical!!!
So does it eliminate carbon monoxide from a block chimney caused by a bird's nest?

Apologies, also only meant it for awareness, obviously the product is for fuel based fires, however it is a safety product. I don't suggest it be used instead of an alarm, just that it can be used to prevent buildup of carbon monoxide.

shane0007

Charmaine King wrote: »

Apologies, also only meant it for awareness, obviously the product is for fuel based fires, however it is a safety product. I don't suggest it be used instead of an alarm, just that it can be used to prevent buildup of carbon monoxide.

In fairness it does look like a decent product. It cannot prevent the build up of carbon monoxide! It can only prevent the build up of soot & hardened carbon. There is a vast difference.
How much is the product installed & how much is the on-going annual service?
Mains water & unit insulation (freeze prevention) I can see as an issue.

shane0007

dodzy wrote: »

I fitted 2 CO (mains powered) maybe a year ago. Just out of interest, how would you test them ? Might sound strange to some, but I'd like to know that they will actually work in the event of CO detection. An "always on" solid green LED does not offer me too much assurance.

They should self monitor their own CO cell & alarm with a flash sequence if the cell fails. It should also have an end of life indicator. Check the MI's for your particular unit.

Charmaine King

shane0007 wrote: »

In fairness it does look like a decent product. It cannot prevent the build up of carbon monoxide! It can only prevent the build up of soot & hardened carbon. There is a vast difference.
How much is the product installed & how much is the on-going annual service?
Mains water & unit insulation (freeze prevention) I can see as an issue.

Keeping the flue clean and clear prevents the carbon monoxide coming back down into the room. It's ongoing cleaning system keeps the flue clean and clear. As I said, it's not a miracle cure, but it is a safety system, preventing fires and reducing CO problems.

The product is €649 installed and the annual service is €70 but half of this is given back by FBD insurance in the form of a voucher off home insurance. There are also incentives if you recommend the product so in essence your service could be free every year for the 10 years.

It is run off the houses mains water, so if the mains freeze the system doesn't work until the mains system is returned to working order. Mains water freezing is an issue with or without the product. As the clean is run on a 200 hours of usage cycle the problem would be rare enough. It is also run off mains electricity, so in the event of a power cut there would be an outage, as there would with all other electrical equipment in the home.

shane0007

Charmaine King wrote: »

The product is €649 installed and the annual service is €70 but half of this is given back by FBD insurance in the form of a voucher off home insurance. There are also incentives if you recommend the product so in essence your service could be free every year for the 10 years.

Wow! Annual sweep cost me €50 from a professional. I understand the carbon build being chemically removed. How successful is this for the complete flue?
Over 10 years system will cost be €1349. Chimney sweep €500.
I don't use FBD so no claim back there.

Charmaine King wrote: »

It is run off the houses mains water, so if the mains freeze the system doesn't work until the mains system is returned to working order. Mains water freezing is an issue with or without the product. As the clean is run on a 200 hours of usage cycle the problem would be rare enough. It is also run off mains electricity, so in the event of a power cut there would be an outage, as there would with all other electrical equipment in the home

I meant the pipe that the installer will tee my cwst mains to the installed unit. Does his price include insulating this newly installed pipe to the current standards?

Charmaine King

shane0007 wrote: »

Wow! Annual sweep cost me €50 from a professional. I understand the carbon build being chemically removed. How successful is this for the complete flue?
Over 10 years system will cost be €1349. Chimney sweep €500.
I don't use FBD so no claim back there.



I meant the pipe that the installer will tee my cwst mains to the installed unit. Does his price include insulating this newly installed pipe to the current standards?

I suppose it's really a matter of quality, you can pay 500 for the sweep, but do they get all of the buildup and can they prevent fires? The unit cleans your chimney back to the point all buildup being gone as soon as it is installed and then cleans it every 200 hours of usage thereafter, which could be every 4-6 weeks if usage is very high. It also prevents chimney fires by cooling the chimney if it gets in range of a fire starting.

As far as I am aware, the only extra costs that can be involved are when there are 2 chimneys being run off of one unit (the main unit and an accessory pack can be worked off of one system) and they are at opposite ends of a house. The wire used to link the computerised mechanism is an extra expense if a large amount of it is needed. Customers are made aware of that in the pre-installment questionnaire, which includes questions about quality and standards of current systems.

corkgsxr

id get the sweep for 50 a year.

pointless if the product costs more that the usual solution

Charmaine King

corkgsxr wrote: »

id get the sweep for 50 a year.

pointless if the product costs more that the usual solution

With charges of up to €500 coming in for Fire Brigade callouts, not to mention the damage caused by chimney fires, I guess some people find it a good investment.

TPM

Charmaine King wrote: »

There is now a new Irish made product on the market that not only helps prevent carbon monoxide emissions, but also automatically cleans your chimney and prevents chimney fires. It's guaranteed for 10 years and available nationwide. Check out www.chimneysafe.com

Be safe in your home.

Charmaine King wrote: »

Apologies, also only meant it for awareness, obviously the product is for fuel based fires, however it is a safety product. I don't suggest it be used instead of an alarm, just that it can be used to prevent buildup of carbon monoxide.

Sorry regardless of what you say this does look very much like a sales pitch for a first post

shane0007 wrote: »

In fairness it does look like a decent product. It cannot prevent the build up of carbon monoxide! It can only prevent the build up of soot & hardened carbon. There is a vast difference.

The product sales information appears good I would have some concerns about drilling the chimney and liner for installation. A cracked flue liner is an expensive repair if noticed and dangerous if not.
Saying it helps prevent carbon monoxide build up can also be said about a standard chimney sweep.
Getting back on topic
Incomplete combustion and insufficient ventilation are serious issues in relation to carbon monoxide, servicing and checking are the only way to address these issues. As appliances and vents can be blocked by humans, animals and/or plants Carbon Monoxide alarms should be fitted as an additional safety measure in every room with a solid fuel, gas, oil burning appliance.

TPM

Charmaine King wrote: »

With charges of up to €500 coming in for Fire Brigade callouts, not to mention the damage caused by chimney fires, I guess some people find it a good investment.

Perhaps but most house insurance claims cover fire brigade call outs

Are there any surveys showing how more or less effective the product is at preventing chimney fires in comparison to annual chimney sweeping?

From my experience most chimney fires are results on poorly maintained/constructed chimneys.

sKeith

Do I need a Carbon Monoxide detector with an open fire? Sometimes it seems like the fuel is not burning correctly, but so far I have put it down to poor coal. (smokeless black diamond ) There is always unburnt coal left in my grate, which i build next days fire on top off.

dodzy

sKeith wrote: »

Do I need a Carbon Monoxide detector with an open fire? Sometimes it seems like the fuel is not burning correctly, but so far I have put it down to poor coal. (smokeless diamond flame) There is always unburnt coal left in my grate, which i build next days fire on top off.

Every home should have one at least sK. A potential lifesaver for very little outlay.

dpofloinn

I find this site to be very useful http://www.carbonmonoxide.ie/

gifted

it was hypothermia that caused those tragic deaths...very very sad in this day and age.

shane0007

sKeith wrote: »

Do I need a Carbon Monoxide detector with an open fire? Sometimes it seems like the fuel is not burning correctly, but so far I have put it down to poor coal. (smokeless diamond flame) There is always unburnt coal left in my grate, which i build next days fire on top off.

Yes it is good practice to install a CO alarm in every room there is a fossil fuel burning appliance and also in a bedroom if the flue/chimney passes through that room.
EI Electronics in Shannon do alarms that can be interlocked. If one alarm sounds downstairs, they all will go off. A very useful addition as closed doors between you & the danger will restrict the db of the alarm.

With regard to your fire, I would certainly look at ventilation. Is there a sufficiently sized non-closable vent in the room where the fire is? Lack of oxygen = lack of combustion + CO, so your poor ignition could be a strong indicator of this.

Dtp79

On the news yesterday when they were reporting on the deaths of those 2 people, they said Bord Gais had ruled out a gas leak as the cause of the deaths and were now suspecting CO poisoning. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought nat gas was not poisonous??

shane0007

Dtp79 wrote: »

On the news yesterday when they were reporting on the deaths of those 2 people, they said Bord Gais had ruled out a gas leak as the cause of the deaths and were now suspecting CO poisoning. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought nat gas was not poisonous??

The cause is now reported as hypothermia & the two people also had other health issues.

Nat Gas is not poisonous but if it replaced all the oxygen in a room due to a leak, then it could kill but it would be from lack of oxygen.

DGOBS

Normally when they issue a statement like that, they mean a 'flue gas leak' not a pipework leak, and yes, it is misleading.As stated no CO in the fuel itself since we moved away from 'town gas' which did have it.

1) CO alrams have weekly test procedures in the manufacturers instruction same as fire alarms do
2) Placement of the CO alarm is very important, in the wrong place it may either expire to early, or not be as sensitive as it should be (see installation instructions)
3) All good alarms will have a 'end of life indicator' as they only last between 5-7 years, before the cells dry out in them
4) Where an alarm is in a room with an appliance CO will usually be most concentrated at high level, as it has approx. the same density as air
5) Where in a room (such as a bedroom) without an appliance, normal breathing height is usually the best area for detection (bedstead height in the bedroom)
6) Make sure wherever you install the alarm, that it will be heard, especially when doors are closed
7) Always bring one with you when going to a hotel, or away on holiday and place it in your room, you never know!

Alarms are cheap and easy to replace, you are not!