Clubs, Membership & Handicaps - All One ?

For Paws

The present system is where a person who wishes to play golf has 3 choices ;

(1) Play at 'Public Courses' in friendly competition without Handicap.

(2) Join a Society and play in friendly competition with 'Society Handicap' at whichever courses Society books. You can add category (1) to this also.

(3) Join Club by paying a Membership Fee and qualify for a GUI Handicap through this club. Category (1) & (2) are still available to you also.

The problem as I see it is that you can't have a GUI handicap without paying to become a member of a Golf Club.

Therefore I propose a fourth Category ;

You play 3 rounds with your scorecard marked by a GUI Handicap holder at any GUI registered course, or courses.

You submit these cards to the GUI (paying an appropriate fee) & receive in turn an Official Handicap (in Smart Card form).

You maintain this Handicap by submitting (or having submitted) scorecards from all Competitions entered using your Handicap Smart Card at whatever courses you play at.

You pay a Green Fee (perhaps set somewhere between a non-handicap holding player & a regular Competition Fee paid by Club Members) for all rounds at whichever course you choose to play at.

In other words, you pay as you play.

You don't have the 'Benefits' of Membership of a Club, but you may in time choose to join a Club at which you have played many times in Competition in the company of Club Members.

What do ye reckon, O Boarders ?:)

charlieIRL

Every club in the country would close due to loss in revenue that membership generates! !

thewobbler

For Paws wrote: »

The present system is where a person who wishes to play golf has 3 choices ;

(1) Play at 'Public Courses' in friendly competition without Handicap.

(2) Join a Society and play in friendly competition with 'Society Handicap' at whichever courses Society books. You can add category (1) to this also.

(3) Join Club by paying a Membership Fee and qualify for a GUI Handicap through this club. Category (1) & (2) are still available to you also.

The problem as I see it is that you can't have a GUI handicap without paying to become a member of a Golf Club.

Therefore I propose a fourth Category ;

You play 3 rounds with your scorecard marked by a GUI Handicap holder at any GUI registered course, or courses.

You submit these cards to the GUI (paying an appropriate fee) & receive in turn an Official Handicap (in Smart Card form).

You maintain this Handicap by submitting (or having submitted) scorecards from all Competitions entered using your Handicap Smart Card at whatever courses you play at.

You pay a Green Fee (perhaps set somewhere between a non-handicap holding player & a regular Competition Fee paid by Club Members) for all rounds at whichever course you choose to play at.

In other words, you pay as you play.

You don't have the 'Benefits' of Membership of a Club, but you may in time choose to join a Club at which you have played many times in Competition in the company of Club Members.

What do ye reckon, O Boarders ?:)

The handicapping system is subject to ridicule and dishonour as its stands. The last thing it needs is an upsurge of plebs among its ranks.

You want a handicap? It's not about paying for one, its about earning one.

For Paws

thewobbler wrote: »

The handicapping system is subject to ridicule and dishonour as its stands. The last thing it needs is an upsurge of plebs among its ranks.

You want a handicap? It's not about paying for one, its about earning one.

The system of gaining a GUI Handicap outlined in my proposal is exactly the same as the present system, except that I would allow a combination of courses instead of just one.

At present a Club Member also pays for his GUI Handicap & Smart Card through his/her GUI fee (usually collected by their Club along with Subscription Fees)

So what's your point ?

For Paws

charlieIRL wrote: »

Every club in the country would close due to loss in revenue that membership generates! !

If more people could play at the existing courses, and contribute a Green Fee income to the Clubs who own the courses, the Club income would rise, not fall.

I proposed a 4th Method to enable people who either can't afford to join their local clubs , or who want to try out clubs before joining, or who simply don't want to be 'Members' in order to play golf.

This proposal is an alternative or additional category, not a replacement fior the present system.

3putt

In this case would you not just get the distance membership which clubs are doing from 99 euro and you could have your handicap this way and still be free to play other courses.

PARlance

Is it much different from your other proposal on the Cheap Memvership thread?

At least there's a handicap secretary in distance clubs.

This "proposal" shows a lack of knowledge of some very common issues with the game.

Almaviva

For Paws wrote: »

If more people could play at the existing courses, and contribute a Green Fee

They already can in the great majority of cases.

What the GUI does is (attemp to - but thats another argument) manage a structure of handicaps for those who want to be part of a controlled system - and they are entitled to make the rules for their system.

If you dont want to play by those rules, then dont. Sounds like you want to be part of the GUI 'club' but have them change their rules to accomodate you.

sodbuster77

What you would need is for the GUI to appoint a handicap secretary to look after possibly thousands of individual handicaps. Unworkable IMO

For Paws

3putt wrote: »

In this case would you not just get the distance membership which clubs are doing from 99 euro and you could have your handicap this way and still be free to play other courses.

To clarify : Scarke GC is offering FULL MEMBERSHIP at €99.

In order to qualify to play in Competitions a Member still has to qualify for a GUI Handicap. Now while it would be perfectly possible for an aspiring Member to pay his fee, book a local b&b near New Ross, and arrange to play 3 rounds with a member in order to submit his/her score cards for a GUI Handicap, and then never frequent the course again. (Would you do this ?)
or Transfer your Handicap from from your present Club


Distance like Country Membership implies Full Membership of another Club.

So the answer to your question is no.

For Paws

ajcurry123 wrote: »

Is it much different from your other proposal on the Cheap Memvership thread?

At least there's a handicap secretary in distance clubs.

This "proposal" shows a lack of knowledge of some very common issues with the game.

Great.

Thanks.

And ?

PARlance

For Paws wrote: »

Distance like Country Membership implies Full Membership of another Club.

No it doesn't, a bit of a catchphrase moment..... but say what you see

Distance

Country

second club

Distance

Country

second club

For Paws

ajcurry123 wrote: »

No it doesn't, a bit of a catchphrase moment..... but say what you see

Distance

Country

second club

Distance

Country

second club

Are you saying that 'Country Membership' is open to people who aren't already Members of another Club ?

PARlance

For Paws wrote: »

Great.

Thanks.

And ?

And...... please get back to us when your PROPOSAL is reviewed.

For Paws

ajcurry123 wrote: »

And...... please get back to us when your PROPOSAL is reviewed.

Who do think is going to review it ?

Who is 'us' (are there 123 of you ?)

If you don't agree, then fine ; that's cool

If you want to add to the debate, that's cool +

If you just want to knock it without saying why, then why post at all ?

PARlance

For Paws wrote: »

Are you saying that 'Country Membership' is open to people who aren't already Members of another Club ?

You do not have to be a member of another club to become a country or distance member!
Seriously, a bit more knowledge of how golf works is in order

For Paws

ajcurry123 wrote: »

You do not have to be a member of another club to become a country or distance member!
Seriously, a bit more knowledge of how golf works is in order

Check, for instance, GORT GOLF CLUB MEMBERSHIP on the topic of Distance or Country Membership. www.gortgolf.com/membership_fees.html

For Paws

For Paws wrote: »

Check, for instance, GORT GOLF CLUB MEMBERSHIP on the topic of Distance or Country Membership. www.gortgolf.com/membership_fees.html

or TUAM GOLF CLUB www.tuamgolfclub.com/images/COUNTRY%20APPLICATION.pdf

Rikand

You can join athlone as a distance member for 375 if it takes your fancy ? No other membership required, you get a handicap and we'll let you play any day of the week you like for nathin!

For Paws

or ROSCREA GOLF CLUB www.roscreagolfclub.ie/pricing.php and click on DISTANCE MEMBERSHIP

Enough ?

For Paws

Rickylovesuall wrote: »

You can join athlone as a distance member for 375 if it takes your fancy ? No other membership required, you get a handicap and we'll let you play any day of the week you like for nathin!

And an excellent Club & course it is. Am continually recommending it.

I'll ring the Club Sec in the a.m. & check out that deal.

For Paws

Seriously, a bit more knowledge of how golf works is in order


Did you check those links yet ?

I'd be delighted to hear your response, since, er, you know so much about golf, like.:D

PARlance

For Paws wrote: »

To clarify : Scarke GC is offering FULL MEMBERSHIP at €99.

Distance like Country Membership implies Full Membership of another Club.

For Paws wrote: »

or ROSCREA GOLF CLUB www.roscreagolfclub.ie/pricing.php and click on DISTANCE MEMBERSHIP

Enough ?

You don't need to be a member of another club to be a distance member in Rocrea, read it again.
Nor do you need to be a member of another club to be a distance member in Gort
Tuam doesn't offer distance membership

Distance does not implie full membership of another club

For Paws

For Paws wrote: »

Are you saying that 'Country Membership' is open to people who aren't already Members of another Club ?

Please point out where the word 'DISTANCE' occurs in the above question.:D

ChippingSodbury

Guys, don't fight.
Each Club makes it's own rules for Distance/ Country/ Overseas etc. types of membership: there is no obligation on any club to conform to any membership rules.
On handicaps, however, there are rules that must be applied. You must have a home club. There must be a Handicap Secretary in your home club. It is the Handicap Secretary's responsibility to ensure, to the best of their ability, that the Handicap system is applied correctly and that adjustments are made to players that fall outside the norms. Without a home club, that cannot be done.

For Paws

Almaviva wrote: »

They already can in the great majority of cases.

What the GUI does is (attemp to - but thats another argument) manage a structure of handicaps for those who want to be part of a controlled system - and they are entitled to make the rules for their system.

If you dont want to play by those rules, then dont. Sounds like you want to be part of the GUI 'club' but have them change their rules to accomodate you.

According to my proposal ; Qualification for, payment to, and membership of the GUI would continue as it stands. The only difference would be not having to join a Club in order to get a Handicap. I'm a Club member & happy enough to be, as I reside in an area where Annual Subs are affordable. The majority of people in this country are not so fortunate.

For Paws

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

Guys, don't fight.
Each Club makes it's own rules for Distance/ Country/ Overseas etc. types of membership: there is no obligation on any club to conform to any membership rules.
On handicaps, however, there are rules that must be applied. You must have a home club. There must be a Handicap Secretary in your home club. It is the Handicap Secretary's responsibility to ensure, to the best of their ability, that the Handicap system is applied correctly and that adjustments are made to players that fall outside the norms. Without a home club, that cannot be done.

If you, as a Handicap holder, swipe your Smart Card & play in a Competition in your 'own' Club, or indeed any GUI Club, your Handicap is monitored and adjusted accordingly. The responsibilities of the Handicap Sec. have altered with the advent of the Smart Card. His/her other responsibility, to ensure that a Member's General Play is factored into his handicap, is an extremely difficult one, and regrettably is not always attended to.
The days of the Club monitoring a chap's behaviour on & off the course are well behind us.

For Paws

A final word to my friend AJCurry123

Both of us are right & both of us are wrong.

My apologies.

PARlance

For Paws wrote: »

Please point out where the word 'DISTANCE' occurs in the above question.:D

I must have missed that, my hands were still covering my face as I was doing a facepalm for your post below

For Paws wrote: »

Distance like Country Membership implies Full Membership of another Club.

Check your other posts, the majority of them mention distance

Anyway, better leave you back to finish your prosposal :rolleyes:

Almaviva

For Paws wrote: »

According to my proposal ; Qualification for, payment to, and membership of the GUI would continue as it stands. The only difference would be not having to join a Club in order to get a Handicap. I'm a Club member & happy enough to be, as I reside in an area where Annual Subs are affordable. The majority of people in this country are not so fortunate.

Did not make my point well. The GUI is an organisation of golf club members for golf club members. Non golf club members are taken care of under the looser heading of societies. It has no raison d'etre for non members.

Are you not asking for comparison, for universities to award degrees to anyone who send in €20 and a stamped envelope? Then everyone could have university degrees and life would be great.

mike12

If this was introduced then you would have half of the clubs in the country close everyone would opt out of membership and play where they wanted. Problem is that clubs would not be able to make up for the lost revenue and all the members clubs would close leaving us with all the NAMA courses.
Golf is affordable if you want to play every week and play in comps then join a club there are plenty well under 1000 no matter where you live. It will work out at less than €20 per round if you play every week of the year.
If you play 10 times a year join a society or pay green fees.
If you play 20 to 30 times a year them you need to do a bit of research, do you want to play comps? Then you have to find cheaper membership or go for distance Membership. There are clubs within driving distance that do full membership for less than €600. Bellewstown €595 for an example.

Mike

For Paws

Almaviva wrote: »

Did not make my point well. The GUI is an organisation of golf club members for golf club members. Non golf club members are taken care of under the looser heading of societies. It has no raison d'etre for non members.

Are you not asking for comparison, for universities to award degrees to anyone who send in €20 and a stamped envelope? Then everyone could have university degrees and life would be great.

My Apologies ; There was I thinking that the letters GUI stood for

GOLFING UNION OF IRELAND

when all the time it really stood for GOLF CLUBS UNION OF IRELAND.:rolleyes:

According to it's website the GUI has an interest in & financially supports Play-as-you-pay courses, and will register Golf Societies.

Well worth a read, particularly before posting.;)

Don't see the comparison to Uni Degrees.

Situation (1) (a) You join a Golf Club by paying money.
(b) You play 3 rounds with a member
(c) You lodge Score cards with GUI
(d) GUI awards you a Handicap

Situation (2) (a) You pay Golf Club 3 Green Fees
(b) You play 3 rounds with a member
(c) You lodge Score cards with GUI
(d) GUI awards you a Handicap

ie; Golf Club members get their Handicaps by paying money too !

For Paws

mike12 wrote: »

If this was introduced then you would have half of the clubs in the country close everyone would opt out of membership and play where they wanted. Problem is that clubs would not be able to make up for the lost revenue and all the members clubs would close leaving us with all the NAMA courses.
Golf is affordable if you want to play every week and play in comps then join a club there are plenty well under 1000 no matter where you live. It will work out at less than €20 per round if you play every week of the year.
If you play 10 times a year join a society or pay green fees.
If you play 20 to 30 times a year them you need to do a bit of research, do you want to play comps? Then you have to find cheaper membership or go for distance Membership. There are clubs within driving distance that do full membership for less than €600. Bellewstown €595 for an example.

Mike

You're arguing against yourself.
If members found that it would cost them more to pay as you play
they would remain members of clubs.

It is not always the case that there are plenty well under 1000 no matter where you live.
If you live in Dublin (where half the population live) for example.

Mister Sifter

For Paws wrote: »

The present system is where a person who wishes to play golf has 3 choices ;

(1) Play at 'Public Courses' in friendly competition without Handicap.

(2) Join a Society and play in friendly competition with 'Society Handicap' at whichever courses Society books. You can add category (1) to this also.

(3) Join Club by paying a Membership Fee and qualify for a GUI Handicap through this club. Category (1) & (2) are still available to you also.

The problem as I see it is that you can't have a GUI handicap without paying to become a member of a Golf Club.

Therefore I propose a fourth Category ;

You play 3 rounds with your scorecard marked by a GUI Handicap holder at any GUI registered course, or courses.

You submit these cards to the GUI (paying an appropriate fee) & receive in turn an Official Handicap (in Smart Card form).

You maintain this Handicap by submitting (or having submitted) scorecards from all Competitions entered using your Handicap Smart Card at whatever courses you play at.

You pay a Green Fee (perhaps set somewhere between a non-handicap holding player & a regular Competition Fee paid by Club Members) for all rounds at whichever course you choose to play at.

In other words, you pay as you play.

You don't have the 'Benefits' of Membership of a Club, but you may in time choose to join a Club at which you have played many times in Competition in the company of Club Members.

What do ye reckon, O Boarders ?:)

You pretty much have that fourth option already with distance membership.

ShriekingSheet

Mister Sifter wrote: »

You pretty much have that fourth option already with distance membership.

And while that's only had a small take up so far, there's already instances of clubs banning all members of certain clubs (that specialise in distance memberships) from competing in their Open Competitions.

From the outside, it seems a few too many claims of iffy application of the rules, and a few too many absolutely brilliant scores have lead to clubs refusing members of certain clubs. I'm not naming clubs on either side, but it's been discussed on the board here before.

Many would say the Open Competition hosts are unfairly discriminating. Others would say enough is enough, and they have to defend the integrity of their competitions.

Personally, as beginner member of a club, it took me years to learn the ropes of rules, ettiquette, pace of play and the right way to handle your handicap. In a club environment, you're surrounded by experienced players and a committee, with organised competitions and teams, and you pick up the knowledge you need as you go.

I just don't see how this can be done outside of a club. I think the danger is a growing number of golfers who have no intention of cheating, but they break the rules, or hold the whole course up, or have a handicap that's too high, purely because they didn't know better. And how could they, if they paid €99 sixty miles down the road, handed in 3 cards and never went back?

D3PO

For Paws wrote: »

It is not always the case that there are plenty well under 1000 no matter where you live.
If you live in Dublin (where half the population live) for example.

There are loads of clubs in Dublin offering membership of 1,000 or under.

Don't you think that the fact that not one other person endorses your idea on this thread gives you a clue to how bad a suggestion it is ?

mike12

For Paws wrote: »

You're arguing against yourself.
If members found that it would cost them more to pay as you play
they would remain members of clubs.

It is not always the case that there are plenty well under 1000 no matter where you live.
If you live in Dublin (where half the population live) for example.

Swords Open, Stillouge, Elm Green, Hollystown, Corballis all in north Dublin all well under 1000. I'm sure there are a few more around as well.

I don't really know what you want from this. As discussed before if you want to play opens just join one of the €99 handicap clubs and play away all year around isn't that what u wanted at the start except its costing you €99 euro rather €20.
Problem with having no home clubs is that from October to April its hard to get out at the weekend and there are very few opens.

Another thing against your idea is a typical members club with 400 members paying €1000 each €400000.So they get rid of all the members and If they charge €20 for an open thats 20000 people they need to fill the open days that's around 140 open days a year full from morning to evening they are never going to be able to do that mid week.

For Paws

mike12 wrote: »

Swords Open, Stillouge, Elm Green, Hollystown, Corballis all in north Dublin all well under 1000. I'm sure there are a few more around as well.

I don't really know what you want from this. As discussed before if you want to play opens just join one of the €99 handicap clubs and play away all year around isn't that what u wanted at the start except its costing you €99 euro rather €20.
Problem with having no home clubs is that from October to April its hard to get out at the weekend and there are very few opens.

Another thing against your idea is a typical members club with 400 members paying €1000 each €400000.So they get rid of all the members and If they charge €20 for an open thats 20000 people they need to fill the open days that's around 140 open days a year full from morning to evening they are never going to be able to do that mid week.

But why would 'they get rid of all the members' ?
How would 'they get rid of all members' ?
Who are 'they' ?

Otherwise I take your point(s).
All I'm trying to do is point out that the present system doesn't cater for everyone.
I'd don't own or influence Clubs like Scarke GC.
But the fact they & other clubs are risking disrepute by offering 'below cost' memberships does seem to indicate that a category of golfer exists for whom the present system doesn't work.

That's basically my whole (& final) point.
Many thanks for all the posts.

ShriekingSheet

For Paws wrote: »

But why would 'they get rid of all the members' ?
How would 'they get rid of all members' ?
Who are 'they' ?
.

His post was pretty simple.
If you go down the road you're suggesting, many current members would take up your new proposal.
To cope with the lost of investment from these current members paing their fees, a club would need a ridiculously unrealistic numbers showing up to open days.

Regardless of how suitable your proposal sounds for the punter, if it doesn't sustain the club/course, there's nowhere for us to play.

For Paws wrote: »

Otherwise I take your point(s).
All I'm trying to do is point out that the present system doesn't cater for everyone.
I'd don't own or influence Clubs like Scarke GC.
But the fact they & other clubs are risking disrepute by offering 'below cost' memberships does seem to indicate that a category of golfer exists for whom the present system doesn't work.

That's basically my whole (& final) point.
Many thanks for all the posts.

No, the system doesn't cater for everyone, nor does it have to. It's hundreds of years old as is, played by a load of people who love it as is. You can join in and love it as is, or not. You be like the Americans who want to change football so there's more goals and it appeals to more people.