John Treacy on the marathon

Cartman78

Earlier in the week I was listening to John Treacy talking about the possibility of Fionnuala Britton moving up to the marathon and he said something which has been rattling around my head since....

"Every marathon takes something out of you which you can't put back in"


I can't decide whether that's:

a) the most profound thing I've heard about marathon running and something I strongly agree with

or

b) complete bullsh1t


What do ye think - is he spoofing or has he hit the nail on the head??

Seanie_H

I think it's bull.... if anything I take something from each marathon I do rather than the other way around.

I heard something similar on Off The Ball on Wednesday night in the same tone. I'm not sure whom the gentleman was but he said something along the lines of 'a person will do their best in their first 5 - 6 marathons and that will be it - that's the way the body goes'.

Maybe both ideas are something that's aimed at the elite level??
Hopefully it doesn't apply to slower runners like me and if it is, I'll show him in October when I PB the mara at the DCM :cool:

It's obviously resonated with you Cartman. Funny how these comments can play on then mind.

Claude Harmon

Probably means that its hard to drop back down distances and be competitive after you've moved up.

Still a touch of BS about it though!

aburke

He hit the nail on the head.

The bit he left out was, in my opinion -
"if you are running a marathon to the max of your ability and form at the time"
then
"Every marathon takes something out of you which you can't put back in"

Most posters on here - with the best of intentions, myself included, aren't running at the max of their ability every time they toe the line at a marathon.

TFBubendorfer

He's talking about marathons run at elite level, in which case I presume that there is indeed some profound wisdom in it (not that I'd ever know myself)

That's no relation to running a marathon at mid-pack level, in which case this would be complete BS.


Update: I see aburke has beaten me to it.

popebenny16

Seanie_H wrote: »

I think it's bull.... if anything I take something from each marathon I do rather than the other way around.

I heard something similar on Off The Ball on Wednesday night in the same tone. I'm not sure whom the gentleman was but he said something along the lines of 'a person will do their best in their first 5 - 6 marathons and that will be it - that's the way the body goes'.

Maybe both ideas are something that's aimed at the elite level??
Hopefully it doesn't apply to slower runners like me and if it is, I'll show him in October when I PB the mara at the DCM :cool:

It's obviously resonated with you Cartman. Funny how these comments can play on then mind.

that was john treacy on OTB and i imagine where the OP heard/got it from too.

I was a bit shocked by what he said, i know plenty of poeple who improve on their marathon performances. maybe the fact that his very first one was his best may have something to do with it.

TRR

At an elite level when your average world class marathoner is clocking up to 140 miles a week and running their marathon at 4mins 50 seconds (2hrs 8 minutes pace) then yes there is a limit. How does John Tracey know this well he's been there done that and knows people who have done it also.

I ran my fastest marathon in my last one my 12th but I have been dicking around doing suboptimal training for most of them and in all reality still am dicking around relative to what I could do if I were a professional athlete (and 10 years younger ).

The most interesting thing of that whole interview was the view by both Mark Carroll and Tracey that speed work is so important for running your fastest marathon. That is something a lot of people who post here refuse to accept. And I'm not talking about marathon pace miles etc I mean a real concerted period of doing 5k training before entering a new marathon cycle. Anyone who has done it can tell you the benefits.

notsofast

the OTB interview is still available on newstalk.ie

He went on to say that for most elite marathon runners, their first 5/6 will be their best. Think it was in the context of Britton's marathon debut and it's timing in relation to the RIO 2016 marathon. Don't think this is bull at all.

Cartman78

It's probably more applicable to elites alright....although I think I deffo lost something in London last year which I'll never be able to put back in

That entire interview is interesting actually and worth checking out.....ashamed to admit I didn't know Carroll was a 6th place finisher in New York Marathon until it was mentioned in passing the other night

EauRouge79

Im Not qualified to say whether its BS or not but at a elite level I would guess that the best Elite Marathoners are coming into the marathon on the back of succesfull careers at shorter distances. Most of the elite marathon runners will be in late 20's early 30's and may therefore may run perhaps 2 competitive marathons per year over the next few years before they are "past it" in elite terms.
So they may only get that 5/6 race period at optimum marathon performance.

For the rest of us, we probably all learn a bit from each marathon we do. We learn how to train better, harder and pick up some knowledge as to how your body reacts to training, making it easier to avoid injuries. All of which helps to make you a better runner i.m.o

Run and Jump

Perhaps Treacy meant that with every marathon you lose a toenail and glueing it back on doesn't work

SnappyDresser

Its absolutely true at the elite level. Just look at Ron Hill or Robert De Castella. They ran too many marathons and their performance went downhill. There is also only so many in the tank. Frank Shorter said much the same as did Carlos Lopez. At the elite level you can only go to the well so many times. At plodder level perhaps one can pick and choose all out effort.

TFBubendorfer

EauRouge79 wrote: »

Im Not qualified to say whether its BS or not but at a elite level I would guess that the best Elite Marathoners are coming into the marathon on the back of succesfull careers at shorter distances. Most of the elite marathon runners will be in late 20's early 30's

That used to be the case, but not any more. The new generation of elite Kenyans tend to be much younger than previous ones.

Sami Wanjiru, for example, ran (and won) his first marathon just days after his 21st birthday.

notsofast

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

That used to be the case, but not any more. The new generation of elite Kenyans tend to be much younger than previous ones.

Sami Wanjiru, for example, ran (and won) his first marathon just days after his 21st birthday.

Have any of the younger ones delivered more than 5/6 world class marathons yet ?

woodchopper

Cartman78 wrote: »

"Every marathon takes something out of you which you can't put back in"

Its pains me to say this but I think John Tracey is talking out of his hat here to be honest. In the modern era 5 or 6 marathons does not spell a decline in athletic performance.

Talk is cheap lets look at some examples!

Meb: Olympic medal in 2004, New York City Marathon Winner 2009, USA Olympic Trials Winner 2012, 4th place in 2012 Olympic games marathon despite a stitch that put him back in the twenties mid race. He is also targeting a win at Boston by his recent statements and no doubt he will go close. Expect a top 5 performace in a loaded field. He is 37 by the way.

Gomes dos Santos: New York City Marathon Winner 2006 and 2008. 5th place in 2012 Olympic Games Marthon. He is 35.

Martin Lel: 10 top 3 performances at Major Marathons from 2003 until 2012. This includes 3 London marathon wins, 2 wins in New York and 5th in 2008 Olympic marathon. He is 34 and still going strong when injury free.

Wison Kigsang: 7 marathons in 2 and a half years including 5 wins, an Olympic medal and a 2.03. Is the no 1 marathoner in the world at this moment in decline?

Look at his recovery rates and it would indicate that if the training is specific the recovery from a fast marathon is actually easier than a slower one. This rejects the nonsense that elites go so hard they have only a few good marathons in them. The opposite is the case, the fitter you are, the more quality ones you can do.

I know its not popular to disagree with an Irish Athletics hero but John is off the mark here. Too many posters do not have the courage to call him out so support everything he says. Come on TRR!

TFBubendorfer

notsofast wrote: »

Have any of the younger ones delivered more than 5/6 world class marathons yet ?

Tsegaye Kebede has run no less than 10, and he's still only 25, apparently.
Emmanuel Mutai has run 10. Geoffrey Mutai has run 9.

I could list more.

You know what? I've changed my mind. John Treacy is wrong.

TRR

woodchopper wrote: »

I know its not popular to disagree with an Irish Athletics hero but John is off the mark here. Too many posters do not have the courage to call him out so support everything he says. Come on TRR!

Maybe he was referring to clean athletes! Oops did I just say that?

woodchopper

TRR wrote: »

Maybe he was referring to clean athletes! Oops did I just say that?

Ah leave poor auld Meb alone. You and Tungaska of all poeple should know how hard it is to perform at a high level in the marathon when father time is drawing a close to to your athletic career. GO MEB! Respect to the man

YFlyer

Claude Harmon wrote: »

Probably means that its hard to drop back down distances and be competitive after you've moved up.

Radcliffe set PBs in the 3,000, 5,000 and 10,000m after marathon specific training.

TRR

woodchopper wrote: »

Ah leave poor auld Meb alone. You and Tungaska of all poeple should know how hard it is to perform at a high level in the marathon when father time is drawing a close to to your athletic career. GO MEB! Respect to the man

Father time may be drawing a close on our athletic "careers" but I don't think either of us has ever performed at a high level. Wasn't picking on Meb anyway.

KielyUnusual

Here's a link to the interview

How far can Fionnuala go?

tunguska

woodchopper wrote: »

Ah leave poor auld Meb alone. You and Tungaska of all poeple should know how hard it is to perform at a high level in the marathon when father time is drawing a close to to your athletic career. GO MEB! Respect to the man

Dont know about you woody but as far as my athletics career is concerned, Im only getting warmed up. Big fan of Meb myself though, was delighted to see him tear through the pack in london. Didnt know he had been hit with a stitch though, and if thats true he would've had a good chance of medal, if not the outright win. Would love to see him go again in Rio. Just finished his book and man he came from a seriously hard background.
As far as JTs comments, I've run 4 marathons and not one of them even close to being decent so I cant say what its like at the elite level. In his book Charlie spedding talked about how in his last good marathon he made a deal with himself to get to the finish during the race when he was in bits and that it'd be his last if the running Gods would help him out. Which it effectively was, he made a few aborted attempts to race the marathon again but that was it. I think unless you're running at sub 2:10level you cant know for sure how much that kind of racing takes out of you but what JT is saying could be true.

Racman

I think John Treacy is right - but about races where you give it everything. I remember a quote I saw a few years ago from Frank Shorter who reputedly said "You have to forget your last marathon before you try another. Your mind can't know what's coming." I tend to agree as it applied to me - a three year gap in one case.

myflipflops

I listened to it and thought Treacy was referring to his own experiences specifically with that comment rather than elite marathoners in general. There's no doubt plenty of the top guys have benefited from each marathon they have ran rather than being hurt by them.

woodchopper wrote: »

I know its not popular to disagree with an Irish Athletics hero but John is off the mark here. Too many posters do not have the courage to call him out so support everything he says. Come on TRR!

I found it interesting/surprising they had Treacy on talking about her. Obviously he is the national marathon record holder so is more than qualified to discuss his experience the event but I would say his knowledge of Irish athletes would not be great outside of seeing them on the TV. Certainly most of what he said in the interview was pretty generic stuff as opposed to Carroll who could quote PBs and would have been talking to Chris Jones.

TRR

^^^
Regards Caroll I thought it was gas when he mentioned he had plugged Brittons track PBs into a performance predictor website that coaches use, what's the bets it's mcmillian

Enduro

woodchopper wrote: »

Its pains me to say this but I think John Tracey is talking out of his hat here to be honest. In the modern era 5 or 6 marathons does not spell a decline in athletic performance.

I also think JT is talking shoite here if he is generalising rather than reffereing to himself in particular. I agree entirely with all the reasons raised so far and add another. And that's that there is nothing 'magical' about the marathon distance that makes it so special.

Substitute in another distance, such as 10000 meters for example, and parse the same logic again. Does an athlete only have 5 or 6 good 10000 meter runs in them? does each one take something out that can't be put back. Of course not. The whole idea is rubbish. There is nothing so special about the marathon that it is in a different category to every other distance.

Another good counter example from an even longer (and arguably more arduous) event would be Rob Heffernan's performances at the highest level in the 50km walk. It doesn't look like Rob has been held back or depleted from multiple top level performances of an even longer length than the marathon.

MrCreosote

I think he has a point. Even the young marathoners seem to start dropping off after 5 or 6- it just seems they are around longer because they run so few a year. Martin Lel was mentioned- dominant for 3 years, still pretty good but not at the same level. Sammy Wanjiru seemed to be past his best too when he died.

It's probably that the training and recovery for each one takes so long, and an athlete is probably only truly at the top of their game for 3-4 years that they will only get a few marathons in in that time

(Between this and the studies showing the dangers of endurance sports on the heart, it seems there's a bit of a backlash against the longer distances.)

Cartman78

MrCreosote wrote: »

(Between this and the studies showing the dangers of endurance sports on the heart, it seems there's a bit of a backlash against the longer distances.)

Do you have links/references to these studies?

Not being a smart-arse but I haven't heard or seen anything like that...

MrCreosote

Here you go:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056820937

Reference is the august peer-reviewed scientific website boards.ie (impact factor of 19.72)

Cartman78

Haha..that research got a bit of a kicking alright

I don't think JT was being down on the marathon as such...more so that elite athletes need to time and target marathons carefully.

hot to trot

If you have the most years of an international career starting at shorter distances and then moving up to longer events as you - slow too much to be competitive at them - then you have years of hard training and breakdown already in the system.
Add the marathon on top of this and it is quite possible that elite racing will come closer to draining the well dry.

IF you do marathon events younger ,by choice ,( as Many Africans are now doing ) you still have a greater reserve in the body so , the decline shouldn't happen as quickly .

Many of the Kenyans are almost starting with competing marathons because for them that's where the money is and it can make a huge difference for them and their village.

perhaps?