Danger with GPS/rangefinders

Peterdalkey

I bought a Garmin GPS Approach watch six months ago and it is absolutely brilliant. I had joined a new club with some huge deep greens and all the markers in metres but my golf is still in yards. It is great when playing new or unfamiliar courses too.

Last Saturday I forgot to put it on and went out to play in the usual Saturday competition, I was in doubt from the very start, normally I just glance at the watch and select the apprpriate club. Soon found out that I had become so dependent on the watch that I had lost all skill in estimating distances and was pacing out sprinkler heads in metres adding on 10% for yards and then + or - paces for actual total... then modify for pin position estimate. I did not have a great round.

From now on, I am going to try to estimate the distance BEFORE I look at the watch to confirm/correct my guesstimate. Use it or lose it, seems to be the key. I have noticed that using a keyboard for all written communications has made hanwriting anything a slow and tedius thing, I used to be quite a dab hand with the old rollerball pen, but no more!!

Be warned, you become so dependent/addicted to these wonderful yokes!


cheers

Peter

FixdePitchmark

Funny you mention that - was out with a lad with a Bushnell thingamijig the other day, my first time to play with someone with one.

We were playing a links and he had not played it in years, so needed lay up distances all the way around. He would use the Bushnell, then ask me what distance do I play to lay up. He had the equipment in his hand, but was 2nd guessing it all the time. He would look again, then ask me what club do I play to lay up. I know the course well and guided them around better than myself. I prefer to consider wind and conditions and see the shot. I'm just a bit slow to technology - next year I'll have the top of the range one.

Just found it strange for him to have one and be uncomfortable with the feedback from it. Maybe he just got it for xmas, and is 2nd guessing it.

Another issue that came up was the change in elevation on the course. if you look at a point on a fairway , it is not giving you the change in elevation, so the distance it gives you is not considering relative position - or is it - Do some give height change ?

I think the gps/rangefinder has been done to death - but your angle is the way it changes a golfer. I love that bit of the game working out the shot and distance , even by sight - but a thing of the past it seems.

Didn't think I'd get a smart phone. Have one - sorry too many question - do smart phones not kill the whole gps golf systems ?

Benny Cake

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Funny you mention that - was out with a lad with a Bushnell thingamijig the other day, my first time to play with someone with one.

We were playing a links and he had not played it in years, so needed lay up distances all the way around. He would use the Bushnell, then ask me what distance do I play to lay up. He had the equipment in his hand, but was 2nd guessing it all the time. He would look again, then ask me what club do I play to lay up. I know the course well and guided them around better than myself. I prefer to consider wind and conditions and see the shot. I'm just a bit slow to technology - next year I'll have the top of the range one.

Just found it strange for him to have one and be uncomfortable with the feedback from it. Maybe he just got it for xmas, and is 2nd guessing it.

Another issue that came up was the change in elevation on the course. if you look at a point on a fairway , it is not giving you the change in elevation, so the distance it gives you is not considering relative position - or is it - Do some give height change ?
I think the gps/rangefinder has been done to death - but your angle is the way it changes a golfer. I love that bit of the game working out the shot and distance , even by sight - but a thing of the past it seems.

Didn't think I'd get a smart phone. Have one - sorry too many question - do smart phones not kill the whole gps golf systems ?

You can get some units that measure "slope" and these will give you the "real" distance to the pin. However, they're not legal for tournament play.

charlieIRL

I have a GPS that i got last year and to be honest, its only handy when playing a new course. Most courses have decent enough distance markers to know what you have left.
The only time i use mine is to decide between which wedge to use on an approach to a green - when i eventually get close enough!!

alxmorgan

charlieIRL wrote: »

I have a GPS that i got last year and to be honest, its only handy when playing a new course. Most courses have decent enough distance markers to know what you have left.
The only time i use mine is to decide between which wedge to use on an approach to a green - when i eventually get close enough!!

Not many distance markers in the trees, rough, swamp land, other fairways, car park.................:D

Peterdalkey

alxmorgan wrote: »

Not many distance markers in the trees, rough, swamp land, other fairways, car park.................:D

exackery!!

charlieIRL

alxmorgan wrote: »

Not many distance markers in the trees, rough, swamp land, other fairways, car park.................:D

If your in there (like i do be) you won't be going for the green!!

Keano

I agree with charlie, great for new courses but just spend time getting to know how far you hit each club is time well spent. I often forget to charge my gps so end up playing without out!

Peterdalkey

charlieIRL wrote: »

If your in there (like i do be) you won't be going for the green!!

Some of my finest shots into the pin have been from another fairway ( I do get a lot of prictice in fairness!!)

Peter

PS The point I was trying to make if using these is to mentally estimate and then look at the yoke to confirm/correct. You do lose the natural eye for the distance if you do not keep using it.

alxmorgan

I always found my estimation abilities were crap so I live and die by the unit now.
I arrived to play an open once and realised I hadn't the course on the unit so I spent all my warm up time in the car with my phone as a wifi access point to download it

I always find it useful as I don't trust markers or my ability to use them. And of course the length of greens is not available when standing on the fairway so the unit is great for that.

And the distance to hazards etc

Yes I'm hooked !!

Senna

alxmorgan wrote: »

I always found my estimation abilities were crap so I live and die by the unit now.

+1

Been playing the last month without one and I'm lost without it. Was playing my first comp on a newish course and I had a PW in my hand until another player said "you know that's the 150m marker, not the 100m marker":o
Probably getting used to playing without it again, I'm judging distances now as the course markers aren't great (lack of them), but I've a new GPS for this Sunday and I wont be playing without it again.

Benny Cake

Senna wrote: »

+1

Been playing the last month without one and I'm lost without it. Was playing my first comp on a newish course and I had a PW in my hand until another player said "you know that's the 150m marker, not the 100m marker":o
Probably getting used to playing without it again, I'm judging distances now as the course markers aren't great (lack of them), but I've a new GPS for this Sunday and I wont be playing without it again.

You've no business round here if you cant hit your pitching wedge 150m....

Leprechaun77

I have just started using a gps in the last few rounds. I try not to use it too much but it has highlighted two major weaknesses in my game. I didn't realise how important pin position really is. Previously I would have a glance where the flag was roughly placed, and add it to the rough yardage to the front of the green. Having compared a lot of my 'mental' calculations to the gps, I am noticing that on some holes I am a club out. The gps has also helped in hazard management and also clubbing down on some shots to leave a better distance to the green. E.g leaving 100 yds instead of 75 yds allowing me to play a full wedge. No more hitting the biggest club possible for the sake of it.

I do think it is important to maintain 'feel' though, but if your feel is out in the first place, what do you do?

The_Architect

They're ridiculous things to be honest, especially on links courses. Fixedpitchmark's post says it all.

alxmorgan

The_Architect wrote: »

They're ridiculous things to be honest, especially on links courses. Fixedpitchmark's post says it all.

I find that a ridiculous post. How can it be ridiculous to know how far you are from something or how far you hit the ball ?

Senna

I don't really see the problem, all courses have markers, some courses have markers every few meters, courses print yardage books, pro's will spend time compiling their own yardages during practice.
So the ability to judge all distances by yourself may make people think they are staying truer to the game, but that's not what the game is about. Its about knowing how far you are away and having the skills to judge which club to use, taking in all the other factors (wind, temp, slope, etc). You can pace it out from the markers or you can look at the GPS, the end result is the same, only the person with the GPS isn't delaying the game.

"feel" and the ability to judge comes into the equation during chipping and putting.

The_Architect

But we're not pro's and we don't hit the ball anywhere near cleanly every time. My own opinion is they delay - not speed up - the round. Eyeball as you walk to the ball, choose your club as you are parking your bag and then hit the ball. But I realise that not everyone agrees. And that's fine.

niallo32

Am thinking of investing in one of these lads - was going to go for a Garmin approach S1 watch

Is it worth spending the extra few quid on the S3?

Peterdalkey

The_Architect wrote: »

But we're not pro's and we don't hit the ball anywhere near cleanly every time. My own opinion is they delay - not speed up - the round. Eyeball as you walk to the ball, choose your club as you are parking your bag and then hit the ball. But I realise that not everyone agrees. And that's fine.

That is the beauty of the watch idea, no delays. The range finder users take longer rooting in their bag, trying to find the cover and generally adjusting their equipment.... and the rangefinder as well!

Peter

thewobbler

Senna wrote: »

+1

Been playing the last month without one and I'm lost without it. Was playing my first comp on a newish course and I had a PW in my hand until another player said "you know that's the 150m marker, not the 100m marker":o
Probably getting used to playing without it again, I'm judging distances now as the course markers aren't great (lack of them), but I've a new GPS for this Sunday and I wont be playing without it again.

You can't judge the difference between 100m and 150m? It's not a watch you need. Walk up and down a marked out GAA pitch a few times and get a feeling for how far the goalposts are away at each line. Train it to memory. It's really not difficult.

GreeBo

thewobbler wrote: »

You can't judge the difference between 100m and 150m? It's not a watch you need. Walk up and down a marked out GAA pitch a few times and get a feeling for how far the goalposts are away at each line. Train it to memory. It's really not difficult.

And when its uphill, or downhill or there is a bunker in front, or when the green is 30m long?

Why do courses have any distance markers so?
Why do caddies make/use yardage books?

Webbs

thewobbler wrote: »

You can't judge the difference between 100m and 150m? It's not a watch you need. Walk up and down a marked out GAA pitch a few times and get a feeling for how far the goalposts are away at each line. Train it to memory. It's really not difficult.

Unfortunately some of us arent always on the fairway and what about being 170 to 200yds out? Or as another poster put it if there is a hollow or hill before the green.
All these factors alter perception of distance - just ask The Architect thats a major part of course design to trick you into mistaking distance.

Senna

thewobbler wrote: »

You can't judge the difference between 100m and 150m?

That was a fairly extreme example but still an actual example of how reliant I had become to these GPS devices. I had just topped my second shot, during my first real competition ever, on a new course, with a big mound between me and the green, and nerves were a factor. I just looked at the marker and picked a wedge, when a player standing beside my ball seen the wedge and said "that's 150m...."

To those that say it slows the game down, that's the down to the player, mine sits on the trolley, no routing through pockets, bags etc, its right in-front of me and the distance is constantly displayed. If a person has to go looking for their GPS, it means they aren't using it much and so obviously not slowing play on the majority of holes. If they choose to use it on a particular hole, we could assume that if they didn't have a GPS they would start looking for a marker, therefore taking up the same/more time.

Generalising here; but I think the people who don't agree with GPS devises have no need for them themselves so they don't think anyone else should benefit from something that is no benefit to them.

A New earth

I have a GPS since Oct & definitely speeds up play. Just have a look at it (attached to top of bag) when you get to ball & hit instead of looking for distance marker, pacing out, converting metres to yards and adjusting for the pin position. Now that you mention it though, I'm probably becoming too dependant on it.

The_Architect

Senna - what you say is right. I don't agree because I generally don't have a need for them. But Peter's original point is valid. You lose your trained eye. So if you don't use them, you actually don't need them because distance gauging comes back to you pretty quickly. Personally I think there should be one 150 yard / metre marker and that is it. Most of us can quickly work out where we are from looking at that to the nearest +/-10 and that is plenty accurate enough. Greebo - caddies that use yardage charts are the sole domain of the elite pros. We are not elite pros and should stop trying to copy them. All that said, Webbs has it spot on from my perspective. Try and mess with the golfers head by building as much deception in to the hole as possible.

FixdePitchmark

The_Architect wrote: »

Senna - what you say is right. I don't agree because I generally don't have a need for them. But Peter's original point is valid. You lose your trained eye. So if you don't use them, you actually don't need them because distance gauging comes back to you pretty quickly. Personally I think there should be one 150 yard / metre marker and that is it. Most of us can quickly work out where we are from looking at that to the nearest +/-10 and that is plenty accurate enough. Greebo - caddies that use yardage charts are the sole domain of the elite pros. We are not elite pros and should stop trying to copy them. All that said, The Wobbler has it spot on from my perspective. Try and mess with the golfers head by building as much deception in to the hole as possible.

Im softening on this with time. But it is technology for technology sake in some instances.
To see a mid to high handicap player have one and have a 20 yrd range on a 7 iron. A bit of a joke. But peoples attitudes to technology change with time.

My angle, an opinion - that a technological aide to golf goes against the principles and history of game. Perhaps outdated and bizarre . But your feelings are that.
I would hate to see sheflin or a top footballer pull out a device to judge a distance. They have their field and lines and a sense of position , the course is our field .

Im full of **** , I'll have one next year (lol)

thewobbler

GreeBo wrote: »

And when its uphill, or downhill or there is a bunker in front, or when the green is 30m long?

Why do courses have any distance markers so?
Why do caddies make/use yardage books?

You're a bit inside out there Greebo.

When it is uphill or downhill, your yardage books and distance markers suffer the same issue, in that you have to use what's between your ears before you use what's in your hands. They don't help you at all unless you have an understanding of the effects of a slope in your distances.

The pin position might change, but the position of the green does not. Not does the 150 yard marker. Again, if you can't work out the impact of front/middle/back positions without a mechanical device, then I don't see how you an possibly be trusted to gauge weight of a long putt.


Anyways, the course I'm a member of is beside the sea, but not a links. We have an east to west wind three days out of four, and west to east one day out of four. Understanding that breeze is infinitely more beneficial for scoring than being told exactly how far it is to the pin. 100 yards 3 days out of 4 is 120 the other day.

GreeBo

thewobbler wrote: »

You're a bit inside out there Greebo.

When it is uphill or downhill, your yardage books and distance markers suffer the same issue, in that you have to use what's between your ears before you use what's in your hands. They don't help you at all unless you have an understanding of the effects of a slope in your distances.

Who doesnt know that you need to adjust for uphill or downhill? I dont understand this point.

I can adjust for up hill and downhill, if I know the straight line distance, If I cant even see the green due to a slope or foreshortening bunker etc then Im stumped. So, they completely help you, because you are able to gauge the impact the slope will have on the flat distance.

thewobbler wrote: »

The pin position might change, but the position of the green does not. Not does the 150 yard marker. Again, if you can't work out the impact of front/middle/back positions without a mechanical device, then I don't see how you an possibly be trusted to gauge weight of a long putt.

Im playing your course for the first time, standing on the fairway thats parallel to the one Im supposed to be on. I have no idea how far it is to the green from where I am, I have never been here before. I have no idea how long the green is, again I have never played here before. It could be a 7iron or a 4 iron, thats information that I need to know.

thewobbler wrote: »

Anyways, the course I'm a member of is beside the sea, but not a links. We have an east to west wind three days out of four, and west to east one day out of four. Understanding that breeze is infinitely more beneficial for scoring than being told exactly how far it is to the pin. 100 yards 3 days out of 4 is 120 the other day.

Right, but I can adjust for the wind in my face or the wind behind me, if I know the distance on a calm day. If I have no idea how far it is actually, then I am completely screwed if there is a 2 club wind behind me.

Senna

Courses are marked out for all player to use, some player don't look at the markers as they have either played the course that much or it does mater what the marker says, the balls not going on the green.
A gps just moves the marker to your ball, so if you want to know the distance and knowing the distance will actually mater to the resulting shot, then it's no different to hitting your ball to within 1yard of a course marker on every shot. The skill and difficulty is then hitting the actual ball.

The_Architect wrote: »

Personally I think there should be one 150 yard / metre marker and that is it. Most of us can quickly work out where we are from looking at that to the nearest +/-10 and that is plenty accurate enough.

I just don't understand the thinking behind this at all, why should there only be one marker?
Say its a par 4 450yards, I hit my drive 250, another player hits it 300, he's right beside the marker so knows what distance he has left, I'm 50 yards away from the marker and 90% of the time I wont even be able to see it. Should I walk towards the marker until I can see it, just wasting time, maybe I shouldn't care and just hit anything from a 3 wood to a rescue?
If you had of said markers should be done away with and judgement should only be used, at least I would appreciate your point, but to have one marker on a hole is nonsense.

I think a point that has been missed here is how GPS actually benefits your game over time. After a couple of rounds playing you will actually get much better at club selection and learning from previous shots.