Ryanair - misery machine?

Contrails

I've long been a reader of this forum, pprune and other aviation forums. Whenever it comes to Ryanair, customers seem to come away with an average view of the company... Happy with the basic A-B service I suppose. But whenever the actual frontline staff have anything to say, it's down right depressing. Particularly the newer staff. Cabin crew and Pilots alike seem to be taken advantage of to an amazing level.

A friend of mine linked me this 2 part report from a Dutch news company, makes for an interesting watch. 3 captains and a first officer come forward as whistle blowers. Alot of the report is centred on the mayday calls a few months ago but Part 2 drifts more into the working conditions.

It tends to repeat itself a fair bit but certainly worth the time. Parts 1 and 2 are below. Subtitles throughout.

http://reporter.kro.nl/seizoenen/2012/afleveringen/28-12-2012/extras/mayday_mayday_-_international_version

http://reporter.kro.nl/seizoenen/2013/afleveringen/03-01-2013/extras/mayday_mayday_part_2_-_english_version

sully2010

Yea I saw those documentaries, complete rubbish Ryanair bashing as usual. Any business will always have moany staff and how do we even know they really are Ryanair pilots!? The facts are that they have never had a serious accident in their history, apparently have one of the best maintenance operations in the business, excellent training and I know a contract pilot with Ryanair and she is very happy in her job. They do have their downsides eg customer service but its always so easy to bash companies who are hugely successful in an environment of losses and failures.

Contrails

I wouldn't dismiss it as total Ryanair bashing. I've heard so many stories similar to the lads in the interview.

Stamping out unions, fuel league tables, people being let go for standing up to management, guys and girls never getting a home base, no pension, no insurance, no free uniform, no tea/ coffee, having to sort out your own taxes, finding and paying for your own hotels, paying for your type rating plus all expenses related to that, then not getting paid a cent until you finish line training, not getting paid while sick, for funerals, bereavement , weddings etc.

That's not Ryanair bashing, it's a miserable reality, unfortunately.

Although you could say the guys and girls know what they're getting themselves in for, they don't really have a choice, it's Ryanair or the scratcher. ATPL isn't much good anywhere except an aircraft. They have my sympathy.

By the way I'm glad the girl you know is getting on well, for young single people it can be a decent stepping stone airline if you can afford it. And yes Ryanair is an impressive success story. Its just odd that the employees don't seem to be benefiting in any way. Pay and conditions going way south while profits remain enormous.

View Profile

sully2010 wrote: »

Yea I saw those documentaries, complete rubbish Ryanair bashing as usual. Any business will always have moany staff and how do we even know they really are Ryanair pilots!? The facts are that they have never had a serious accident in their history, apparently have one of the best maintenance operations in the business, excellent training and I know a contract pilot with Ryanair and she is very happy in her job. They do have their downsides eg customer service but its always so easy to bash companies who are hugely successful in an environment of losses and failures.

You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried Sully2010.

These are legitimate Ryanair pilots, trust me. They have genuine concerns regarding real safety issues and poor working conditions.

The sad fact is that these pilots have to turn to a Prime time type TV program in order to get any awareness made of their grievances. Ryanair management don't care, the IAA turns a blind eye.

You mention how Ryanair have never had a serious accident. Maybe they've been lucky never to have had a hull loss (yet) but they have come damn close on numerous occasions.

I am glad your pilot friend is happy in the company. I presume she is fairly new however. Tell her to sign up to IALPA and join REPA if she wants to see what the real downsides are to being a contracter in Ryanair.

sully2010

I agree its not ideal for pilots to have to deal with all these extra hassles when they should be concentrating on safe flying. Unfortunately that's the reality now and it wouldn't suprise me if other airlines started following this contract pilot route. They know what they are getting themselves in for when joining Ryanair and I know options are limited but if they put their heads down for a few years build their hours and get out of there (isnt that what most plan on doing?). Being a commercial pilot is certainly not an easy career choice these days that's for sure.

sully2010

View Profile wrote: »

You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried Sully2010.

These are legitimate Ryanair pilots, trust me. They have genuine concerns regarding real safety issues and poor working conditions.

The sad fact is that these pilots have to turn to a Prime time type TV program in order to get any awareness made of their grievances. Ryanair management don't care, the IAA turns a blind eye.

You mention how Ryanair have never had a serious accident. Maybe they've been lucky never to have had a hull loss (yet) but they have come damn close on numerous occasions.

I am glad your pilot friend is happy in the company. I presume she is fairly new however. Tell her to sign up to IALPA and join REPA if she wants to see what the real downsides are to being a contracter in Ryanair.

Yes she is quite new and to be honest im not in the loop of what goes on behind the scenes so it is interesting to here more opinions on what the truth is.

bluecode

While I wouldn't want to set myself up as a defender of Ryanair. There is a great deal of exaggeration. No one can be under any illusions about working for Ryanair. For many it's mainly a means to an end.

not getting paid while sick, for funerals, bereavement , weddings etc.

If you're not flying you don't get paid. Welcome to the world of the self employed/contractor. But as far as I know there is no real problem if you're sick or otherwise indisposed. You simply make up the hours later. No one is forced to fly sick.

It's fair to say that being a pilot in any airline usually means missing family events, weddings etc. Nature of the job, I'm afraid no matter what airline you work for.

Many people are quite happy working for Ryanair. But of course it's far from ideal and they are responsible for downgrading the T & Cs in the industry.

But Ryanair bashing continues. In my opinion the blame lies with O'Leary. His obnoxious attitude and that of his management and the so called PR department. As a result it's the airline that everyone loves to hate. It's now beginning to rebound on them and every excuse is used to have a go at them. I think eventually they will begin to moderate their attitude otherwise they will lose out on business. That's already happening. It may take the departure of O'Leary though.

Contrails

Yes if you have cold/ flu sure you can make up the hours later on perhaps. Break a limb, have to undergo an operation or anything of the sort, then it doesn't seem so simple.

Having no insurance or sick pay then suddenly becomes a nasty affair. Rent, Flight training debts and household bills to pay and the no fly no pay policy really is ugly. Given the nature of the job, there really should be a more sensible system in play. They certainly have enough capital to do so.

runawaybishop

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1188114.ece

An article (headlined “Ryanair accused of 1,201 safety violations”, Travel, September 23, 2012) stated that, according to a leaked report from the Spanish air safety agency (AESA), Ryanair planes broke safety rules 1,201 times in Spanish airspace in the first six months of 2012. We now accept that this was incorrect; there was no such report and Ryanair did not commit 1,201 breaches of safety rules.

^^ there is a lot of media that bask ryanair though, you can;t deny that.

adamski8

Contrails wrote: »

Yes if you have cold/ flu sure you can make up the hours later on perhaps. Break a limb, have to undergo an operation or anything of the sort, then it doesn't seem so simple.

Having no insurance or sick pay then suddenly becomes a nasty affair. Rent, Flight training debts and household bills to pay and the no fly no pay policy really is ugly. Given the nature of the job, there really should be a more sensible system in play. They certainly have enough capital to do so.

They can surely get pay for their own insurance, pension etc.

From a very outsider, it seems like they pay pilots for flying their planes, they can sort out the rest themselves.

I know some companies offer their employees gym memberships, private health insurance, xmas bonuses; does that means all companies should? No.

If ryanair fullfill the contract the crews sign then i dont see a problem but ryanair isnt forcing them to work for them.

If there are unsafe practices then thats another issue.

Preset No.3

In 2011 a Ryanair Liverpool Pilot committed suicide at Manchester airport and there was talk among his working colleagues that employment issues at Ryanair were involved.

http://ryanairdontcarecrew.blogspot.ie/2012/01/suicide-at-heathrow-airportno-mention.html

Now read this and tell me that Ryanair is a good company to work for. I never aim ill will at people, but there is blood on the hands of individuals at Ryanair and I hope it lives with them for the rest of their lives.


http://www.expressjetpilots.com/the-pipe/showthread.php?44865-Paul-Ridgard-Fund

galwayjohn89

Preset No.3 wrote: »

In 2011 a Ryanair Liverpool Pilot committed suicide at Manchester airport and there was talk among his working colleagues that employment issues at Ryanair were involved.

http://ryanairdontcarecrew.blogspot.ie/2012/01/suicide-at-heathrow-airportno-mention.html

Now read this and tell me that Ryanair is a good company to work for. I never aim ill will at people, but there is blood on the hands of individuals at Ryanair and I hope it lives with them for the rest of their lives.


http://www.expressjetpilots.com/the-pipe/showthread.php?44865-Paul-Ridgard-Fund

I know a good few people at Ryanair all of whom are happy. It's tough work but that's what they expected and there just glad they can do what they love. They knew exactly what they were getting into when they signed up.

Cienciano

bluecode wrote: »

While I wouldn't want to set myself up as a defender of Ryanair. There is a great deal of exaggeration. No one can be under any illusions about working for Ryanair. For many it's mainly a means to an end.

If you're not flying you don't get paid. Welcome to the world of the self employed/contractor. But as far as I know there is no real problem if you're sick or otherwise indisposed. You simply make up the hours later. No one is forced to fly sick.

It's fair to say that being a pilot in any airline usually means missing family events, weddings etc. Nature of the job, I'm afraid no matter what airline you work for.

Many people are quite happy working for Ryanair. But of course it's far from ideal and they are responsible for downgrading the T & Cs in the industry.

But Ryanair bashing continues. In my opinion the blame lies with O'Leary. His obnoxious attitude and that of his management and the so called PR department. As a result it's the airline that everyone loves to hate. It's now beginning to rebound on them and every excuse is used to have a go at them. I think eventually they will begin to moderate their attitude otherwise they will lose out on business. That's already happening. It may take the departure of O'Leary though.

Exactly. I worked with Bord Gais about 10 years ago and everyone was a self employed contractor. You get paid gross wages and sorted tax yourself. If you're sick and need the money, tough shíte, everyone gets pissed off if you come in with something contagious. You can be let go at the drop of a hat too.
I don't think we'll see TV shows about Bord Gais or any of the many companies that employ people like that.

Contrails

Cienciano wrote: »

Exactly. I worked with Bord Gais about 10 years ago and everyone was a self employed contractor. You get paid gross wages and sorted tax yourself. If you're sick and need the money, tough shíte, everyone gets pissed off if you come in with something contagious. You can be let go at the drop of a hat too.
I don't think we'll see TV shows about Bord Gais or any of the many companies that employ people like that.

Did you have to pay 30k for your training? Did you receive no remuneration whatsoever in your initial few months? Did you have 130K of debt over your head? Were you based in a foreign country? Were you pitted against each of your colleagues in a dangerous way?

You won't see TV shows about Bord Gais because they probably pay a decent wage to lads living locally in the country who aren't flying around sick, fatigued or using uncomfortably low amounts of fuel with 190 souls behind them. In other words, there's little or no danger involved. Except to yourself perhaps.

Granted your comparison is similar in parts, but this is just ramped up to 11. You could just say they know what they're getting themselves in for, "tough ****e", but they have no where else to go in this economy. And back to the point I made earlier, the new guys in particular are being paid peanuts while the company is actually thriving. Makes no sense.

As they say; Never waste a good recession.

Cienciano

Contrails wrote: »

Did you have to pay 30k for your training? Did you receive no remuneration whatsoever in your initial few months? Did you have 130K of debt over your head? Were you based in a foreign country? Were you pitted against each of your colleagues in a dangerous way?

You won't see TV shows about Bord Gais because they probably pay a decent wage to lads living locally in the country country who aren't flying around sick, fatigued or using uncomfortably low amounts of fuel with 190 souls behind them. In other words, there's little or no danger involved. Except to yourself perhaps.

Granted your comparison is similar in parts, but this is just ramped up to 11. You could just say they know what they're getting themselves in for, "tough ****e", but they have no where else to go in this economy. And back to the point I made earlier, the new guys in particular are being paid peanuts while the company is actually thriving. Makes no sense.

As they say; Never waste a good recession.

You didn't pay 30k for your training. But the one thing it had in common with ryanair was that you knew exactly what you were doing when you signed the contract.
As for "no where else to go", that's supply and demand. If there's an abundance of staff, wages go down, it's that simple. Ask any builder in the country how much money he's earning at the moment. Same with taxi drivers, electricians, plumbers, etc etc.
In bord gais you only had to give 1 weeks notice when you left too, so if you decided it wasn't for you, you could leave in a few days.

Contrails

Psher666

Excellent contribution, straight from the horses mouth. Thanks for the insight.

Shamrock231

Thanks for saying it as it is Psher666, Ryanair pilots need to arrange a good old fashioned strike for themselves, show MOL how well an airline works without pilots.

sully2010

Thats some pretty shocking stuff, cheers for that. Any happy Ryanair pilots out there??

Preset No.3

There are some happy ryan boys out there, the ones that are there 20 years and have a cushy deal as they are some of the few employees.

I know 1 guy that got moved bases 6 times in 2 years. All those deposits lost, all that time getting to know new friends. Morale was and is LOW!

The Ryanair way is get in, get your hours and get out. At one stage Ryanair were losing 100 pilots a month from guys who were leaving to go to the middle east to work for better pay and conditions.

castie

Misery Machines don't donate settlement cash to charity...

psher666

Preset No.3 wrote: »

The Ryanair way is get in, get your hours and get out. At one stage Ryanair were losing 100 pilots a month from guys who were leaving to go to the middle east to work for better pay and conditions.

Afraid not anymore. Times have changed. There is at least 24 new 737 rated pilots finishing training at the training center in East Midlands each month.

This was true when the middle east airlines were all hiring massive amounts and when the 737 time was worth something. There is so many pilots out there with 500/1000+ hours on type that this amount of hours is worthless. Look on the recruitment websites and see what jobs anybody would get without 3000hrs TT and 1000hrs PIC.

This link is a blog written by a current Ryanair pilot - http://www.scribd.com/doc/115133965/Life-on-the-Line

Fully Established

Sully2010 and View Profile
Ryanair have indeed had a serious accident that led to a hull loss in Rome . Here is the link.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20081110-0

View Profile

Fully Established wrote: »

Sully2010 and View Profile
Ryanair have indeed had a serious accident that led to a hull loss in Rome . Here is the link.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20081110-0

Yes but not due to any error by the flightcrew or due to piss poor company practices.

sully2010

Fully Established wrote: »

Sully2010 and View Profile
Ryanair have indeed had a serious accident that led to a hull loss in Rome . Here is the link.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20081110-0

I know its a hull loss but its also a great example of excellent airmanship to get get the plane down with the damage done. I do remember MOL talking up the pilots at the time, pity he seems to treat them with such disdain now!

John_Mc

I was seriously considering being a pilot. It's something I've always wanted to do. About 2 years ago I spent a few months looking into it and came to the conclusion that it just isn't worth all the sacrifices and poor conditions as described above.

I've accepted that I'll never fly a jet, but I could own/part own a small GA plane and get my kicks out of that at the weekends.

I respect those who followed their dream, but they knew what they were signing up to when they started. Or at least they should have if they researched it.

AlekSmart

psher666: The MAJORITY of the pilots are now unhappy and very stressed about money.

A very comprehensive,interesting and thought-provoking post.

As a regular Ryanair user,I find the above element,frankly unsettling and for sure it is something which I would like to see a full response to from Ryanair Management.

And,yes,it is an issue which could make me rethink my flight booking procedures in future.

Tenger

Fully Established wrote: »

Sully2010 and View Profile
Ryanair have indeed had a serious accident that led to a hull loss in Rome . Here is the link.

I cannot argue that the aircraft was a write off......but I think in industry terms 'hull loss' is generally thought of as a serious crash with fatalities......such as the Turkish B738 at AMS. The AF A340 at Toronto and BA B777 at LHR are also 'hull losses', however they are both pretty significant in that there were no fatalities in either..



That blog is very good. I can see how all those problems could be avoided in a company that gives a little thought to its employees. I understand the logic of each begin a 'contractor' but simple things such as being familiar with the airports, being cordial to colleagues, being aware of equipment problems that add little delays to prep, being aware of the legalities of operations in bad conditions, etc.

These are the issues that are part of the chain of errors that can lead to disaster.

Fully Established

AlekSmart wrote: »

A very comprehensive,interesting and thought-provoking post.

As a regular Ryanair user,I find the above element,frankly unsettling and for sure it is something which I would like to see a full response to from Ryanair Management.

And,yes,it is an issue which could make me rethink my flight booking procedures in future.

MoL is actually on record stating his pilots are overpaid and underworked due to regulations protecting the flight crew , So I think if your looking for a statement it will be along the lines of what it is above .

Zyox

psher666 wrote: »

This link is a blog written by a current Ryanair pilot - http://www.scribd.com/doc/115133965/Life-on-the-Line

Jesus I got seriously stressed just reading that.
Pity it's an actual accurate representation of things you encounter on a daily basis :-/

Stovepipe

Hi all,
These "terms and conditions" for pilots in FR are not new in aviation in general.They have been standard practise in third-level operations, worldwide, for years. It's because they differ from the T & Cs in legacy airlines, that they are considered shocking. Ask any "connie" engineer or any other contractor for that matter. The downside for Ryanair's actual employees is that FR applies the same T & Cs to them.I know of one senior engineer, a long-term full time guy, who left when FR refused to reimburse charges for airport ID cards he'd had to accrue across Europe.They were prepared to drop a valued member of staff, rather than pay for the cards. As for pilots, engineers and cabin crew joining these days, they know what they are getting into.

regards
Stovepipe

Fully Established

I think the reason a lot of the terms and conditions for the pilots have been eroded is Ryanair run a side business charging potential flight crew for interviews and simulator assesments costing around 300 euro , and if you are succesful :rolleyes: or unfortunate here you then shell out another 31000 euro minimum to do a type rating that can be done elsewhere for roughly half the cost.
They have surplus crews now and with more aircraft parked up they can really lower a pilots wage by not having them flying .

Stovepipe

Ryanair have potential pilots by the balls because they need to get a start somewhere and the available slots are scarce. It's win-win for Ryanair because candidates are willing to pay to fly and, in effect, it's cost free to fill right-hand seats, especially when they know that virtually nobody will oppose Ryanair and other airlines, even legacy companies, will follow their example, except in those countries that are prepared to fight ryanair on issues such as bonding of contractors and minimum rates of pay, France being the honourable exception. This type of stuff is old news in America but at least there, you have a much wider aviation base and a chance to get a start is proportionally much easier and flying is so much cheaper.

regards
Stovepipe